Is Warcraft in the Dark Fantasy category?

[willtron]

40K is dark. Wow is not close to 40K in terms of fucked up shit that could exist.

[bloodkin]

WoW's lore has become a meme of itself, in the sense that it was once a (somewhat) coherent story with history and a bit gritty background and events. However, since WoD it made wow far more into a shitty dramatized marvel with 'special ed' orcs, were currently most of the problems exist because nobody seems to have more than 3 braincells and nobody gets killed for what they did.

In dark fantasy, the death or decay of great heroes and civilizations is often the cause of greater conflicts, as these heroes and civilizations were often the last defenders against greater evils, but this is non-existent in wow. The second problem, is that wow started out with some moral grey areas between horde and alliance, but blizz went full in for alliance being the good guys and horde little more that caricatured bad guys, just look at how the horde's leaders have fared vs that of the alliance, all nuance is lost on the current devs and it's not going to come back.

[willtron]

Warhammer 40k isn't dark because humanity is fighting for its survival (like LotR); it's dark because the thing humanity fights to protect isn't really worth protecting or fighting for. The struggles of humanity in 40k are completely futile for the most part.

Very important point in 40K. Virtually every possibilty of life is fucked up and a pretty grim existence. There is no good, it's just survival through whatever means necessary and that survival in itself produces more suffering and hardship to surive against.

[shise]

I would say that it is in a category of its very own. Probably part of the reasons of its huge success.

[Zaktar]

"WOW IS CARTOONY CAUSE THE HEROES ARE POWERFUL AND WIN IN THE END"

Damn bro, really? Almost like we're the main characters.

It's cartoony because it's over the top, simplistic, uses lots of bright colors and glib lines. It's a silly place not meant to be taken too seriously. Yes it still sometimes deals with difficult subjects or events, but the consequences and end results are usually too shallow to evoke the kind of dread or sadness I'd expect to feel in a dark story.

[ro9ue]

Warcraft is basically Marvel in terms of tone. Lots of cross genre stuff, leans on comedy / sillyness.

[cateran100]

WoW have next to nothing connection to high or dark fantasy.....For proper high and dark fantasy I suggest Raymond E. Feist books (Riftwar as high fantasy to understand wtf happening with the soldiers and with the common folks in a way too long war . In WoW NOTHING happens with them...manpower and resources coming from the thin fking air...) and Faerie Tale as dark fantasy (despite it is more contemporary fantasy..)

[Wazooty]

Maybe it used to be but like every other Blizzard franchise, they've completely removed the darkness in favor of never ending epic superhero type stuff.

[ZazuuPriest]

warcraft is generic fantasy. super generic fantasy at that

[TheFirstOnes]

*leaves theater midway through dr. Strange*
"This is ridiculous, Monks don't know anything about humans other than humming"

lol

Idk, I just find it funny when someone calls WoW "stupid" humor cause they like to meme on the story

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warcraft is generic fantasy. super generic fantasy at that

Warcraft 1 is Generic Fantasy. Not current WoW, however.

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It's cartoony because it's over the top, simplistic, uses lots of bright colors and glib lines. It's a silly place not meant to be taken too seriously. Yes it still sometimes deals with difficult subjects or events, but the consequences and end results are usually too shallow to evoke the kind of dread or sadness I'd expect to feel in a dark story.

This I agree with. People are using "cartoony" as in "This franchise is childish" when it's not.

[Nerovar]

WoW's lore has become a meme of itself, in the sense that it was once a (somewhat) coherent story with history and a bit gritty background and events. However, since WoD it made wow far more into a shitty dramatized marvel with 'special ed' orcs, were currently most of the problems exist because nobody seems to have more than 3 braincells and nobody gets killed for what they did.

In dark fantasy, the death or decay of great heroes and civilizations is often the cause of greater conflicts, as these heroes and civilizations were often the last defenders against greater evils, but this is non-existent in wow. The second problem, is that wow started out with some moral grey areas between horde and alliance, but blizz went full in for alliance being the good guys and horde little more that caricatured bad guys, just look at how the horde's leaders have fared vs that of the alliance, all nuance is lost on the current devs and it's not going to come back.

The ironic thing is: WoW was a pretty grim setting for most of the races (and humans in particular). Within 20 years the Kingdom of Stormwind got pretty much razed by Orcs (and rebuilt later), the Kingdom of Alterac is pretty much non-existent, Gilneas closed itself off from the other human kingdoms, both the Kingdom of Lordaeron and the Kingdom of Dalaran got destroyed during the Third War, Stromgarde's King gets killed by the Horde same as the King of Kul Tiras, the Kingdom of Stormwind misses its King and has a child crowned instead while it is beset by rebellion and outside foes... that is the world state for humans in Classic. Sadly, they never really managed to portray this in a coherent way.

Also just contrast what you said with this Bolvar Fordragon quote from the Classic quest 'Order Must Be Restored':

Nathanos' accomplishments were unprecedented. He was a tactical genius, responsible for Alliance victories spanning a decade of conflict.

And now... the champion of the Forsaken.

No. This cannot be. Order must be restored.

Gather an army, <name>. Return to the Plagues with your army and destroy the Blightcaller.

I wish you luck, <name>. Truly, you will need it for this battle.

<Highlord Bolvar Fordragon is lost in thought.>

It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed, <name>. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars.

We are indebted to you and I assure you, <name>, wherever Nathanos Marris is now, he smiles down upon you.

[TheFirstOnes]

Very important point in 40K. Virtually every possibilty of life is fucked up and a pretty grim existence. There is no good, it's just survival through whatever means necessary and that survival in itself produces more suffering and hardship to surive against.

Thank god we have the First Ones for providing WoW with a Cosmic Structure and verse full of expedition, leadership, etc.

[TheFirstOnes]

The ironic thing is: WoW was a pretty grim setting for most of the races (and humans in particular). Within 20 years the Kingdom of Stormwind got pretty much razed by Orcs (and rebuilt later), the Kingdom of Alterac is pretty much non-existent, Gilneas closed itself off from the other human kingdoms, both the Kingdom of Lordaeron and the Kingdom of Dalaran got destroyed during the Third War, Stromgarde's King gets killed by the Horde same as the King of Kul Tiras, the Kingdom of Stormwind misses its King and has a child crowned instead while it is beset by rebellion and outside foes... that is the world state for humans in Classic. Sadly, they never really managed to portray this in a coherent way.

Also just contrast what you said with this Bolvar Fordragon quote from the Classic quest 'Order Must Be Restored':

Nathanos' accomplishments were unprecedented. He was a tactical genius, responsible for Alliance victories spanning a decade of conflict.

And now... the champion of the Forsaken.

No. This cannot be. Order must be restored.

Gather an army, <name>. Return to the Plagues with your army and destroy the Blightcaller.

I wish you luck, <name>. Truly, you will need it for this battle.

<Highlord Bolvar Fordragon is lost in thought.>

It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed, <name>. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars.

We are indebted to you and I assure you, <name>, wherever Nathanos Marris is now, he smiles down upon you.

Pretty funny, considering Bolvar nearly dies against Nathanos' current "love" during WoTLK indirectly, and gets fucked over as the LK by that same person...but in a direct fight.

Actually, that's not funny. That's sad.

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I acknowledged that. MoP or not visually and thematically it simply isn't as dark as the Warbringers cinematic. Even if realistically its a gruesome event.

No, MoP is pretty damn dark lore-wise. I was just explaining why the graphics looked so shit lmaoo

[Nerovar]

Thank god we have the First Ones for providing WoW with a Cosmic Structure and verse full of expedition, leadership, etc.

Yeah the First Ones are so important for the Warcraft universe that they were never even mentioned in over 20 years of Warcraft games.

[Beloren]

lol no. Warcraft isnt Dark Fantasy... Its High Fantasy crossed with Modern Fantasy and Heroic Fantasy.

Unless Blizzard hires someone like Joe Ambercrombie to write for them. But Warcraft is so established to a certain style of world that even another writer cannot make the World of Warcraft move away from what it is.

Dark Fantasy tends to be in a more grounded. Like a Grim Dark style of fantasy like the First Law Trilogy or Game of Thrones, or Malazan Book of the Fallen, Prince of Thorns, Jade City or Poppy War... compared to them Warcraft comes across as a Saturday morning cartoon lol. . :P

Here's a nice selection of fantasy sub genres...

High Fantasy / Epic Fantasy
Low Fantasy
Portal Fantasy
Urban Fantasy / Contemporary Fantasy
Paranormal / Paranormal Romance
Fantasy Romance / High Fantasy Romance
Young Adult Fantasy (YA)
Children’s Fantasy
Fairy Tale Retellings
Sword and Sorcery / Heroic Fantasy
Medieval Fantasy / Arthurian Fantasy
Historical Fantasy
Comic Fantasy
Science Fantasy
Grimdark Fantasy
Gothic Fantasy / Dark Fantasy
The New Weird

okay.. I had no idea there were this many categories, can you give an explanation to each? I know some are sort of self explanatory, but it would be helpful nonetheless.

[TheFirstOnes]

And now we're back to the portrayal vs realistic ramifications.

MoP's story is TECHNICALLY incredibly dark, those are the realistic ramifications. An entire country built upon the remnants of an old god that has seeped into the land itself causing your worst emotions to manifest as horrifying tar like monsters IS HORRIFYING ON PAPER.

BUT IN REALITY you also fight literal rabbit people in a field with giant carrots. That's the portrayal.

There's a mismatch that you dont see in traditional dark fantasy. Tonally WoW is completely off in almost every aspect.

Hence why it isn't dark fantasy in PRACTICE.

We can talk nuclear bombs and carnage all day long but at the end of the day tonally you've still got goblin pool party animals chilling in Orgrimmar along with fake grass mats.

Just means WoW is a mix of multiple things. Never said WoW in itself was all Dark Fantasy. I explicitly explain that WoW's a mixture of many Fantasy elements, with it mostly being Heroic Fantasy.

[Beloren]

Is it? You kill demigods left and right and there is almost no mention ingame or otherwise about how the constant wars affect the population. Pretty much post-cataclysm Westfall are the only ones and even there they feed the starving homeless with a meaty stew and the followup quest isn't about them throwing up and dying in agony.

THAT is what makes dark fantasy dark. Not overcast and vampires.

Ah but the grain in WC3, killed them and turned them into Zombie, adn thehero (Arthas) had to slaughter them turning him to the dark side. - - that was dark, very dark, he genocides the high elves, his home nation and slaughters his own father, and we watch all of that happen.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah the First Ones are so important for the Warcraft universe that they were never even mentioned in over 20 years of Warcraft games.

2 Reasons:

In Universe, they're so above everything else, that not even Cosmic Pantheons know much about them. Hell, I don't even think Light and Shadow know all too much of these First Ones.

And in game, they're new. Made up on the spot for future WoW lore and to expand upon the Cosmos. SUPPOSEDLY, these guys are the great Architects of all we see. So, who knows...

[AcidicSyn]

Some folks mention Warhammer, but does it actually show that stuff? Lord of the Rings talks about people being wiped out all the time, as well as the dark things that happen to them (Elronds wife anyone?) but still isn't Dark Fantasy. You can have dark things happen and still not necessarily be dark fantasy.

Some mention D&D as not being dark but eh.....it can be.

Even Warcraft has some incredibly dark situations (Garonas parents, Draenei cities being sacked, Yrels imprisonment, Alextraszas enslavement, hell the High Elves were slaughtered to within 1% of their original population, what happened to Sylvanas in wc3 is certainly dark) but I don't think that qualifies it as dark fantasy. Certainly not now. If Warcraft was dark fantasy there wouldn't be any alliance or horde anymore, just splinter groups of survivors from years of killing eachother without plot armor vying for control of little pieces of azeroth against eachother. A Song of ice and Fire is darker than Warcraft and I'm not even sure that would be dark fantasy either.

Goblin Slayer sure starts off as Dark Fantasy. Dark Souls is definitely dark fantasy. I think Diablo 1 could be called dark fantasy too.

[Beloren]

I guess, yeah. WoW in particular is Heroic Fantasy, since the main characters are the Player Characters (AKA The Mortal Champions).

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Knew I'd fine one of these comments eventually

But while we play the hero in the wow quests, the main story line isn't centred around us, it is around the big guns like Sylvanas, Anduin, the Jailer etc, and that's just wow, remember warcraft is bigger than wow, so we must look at the games before wow, the books and comics too.