Is Warcraft in the Dark Fantasy category?

[Verdugo]

Just means WoW is a mix of multiple things. Never said WoW in itself was all Dark Fantasy. I explicitly explain that WoW's a mixture of many Fantasy elements, with it mostly being Heroic Fantasy.

Just like vomit is mix of multiple meals.

[Beloren]

Wow is full of memes and poop quests

Poop quests????

[Nerovar]

2 Reasons:

In Universe, they're so above everything else, that not even Cosmic Pantheons know much about them. Hell, I don't even think Light and Shadow know all too much of these First Ones.

And in game, they're new. Made up on the spot for future WoW lore and to expand upon the Cosmos. SUPPOSEDLY, these guys are the great Architects of all we see. So, who knows...

Yeah, I'm just stating this to make a point about how little these "First Ones" matter to the actual stories and characters we care about. The exploration of these "cosmic entities" is just fundamentally uninteresting especially when they're not really tied to any existing stories. It's just supposed to be fluff/background noise (and we already had established stories taking up the same space). I mean, they can always just tell us later on that event X was actually orchestrated by the First Ones all along (like they did with the Jailer, Denathrius etc.) but I think this will only end up making people care less about Warcraft's lore in the long run.

[ParanoiD84]

Some folks mention Warhammer, but does it actually show that stuff?

Show what, bad things happening? Yeah all the time in the Novels

There was a q&a released 2 hours ago with dan abnett where he explains why 40k is the single worst setting to visit or to be alive in or one of the absolute worst.

That was one of the questions he answered atleast and he's regarded as one of the top authors of Warhammer and helped with the script for guardians of the galaxy movies, alien isolation to name some recent stuff he also wrote a shit ton of marvel and dc stuff but mostly Warhammer.

Even the term grimdark comes from 40k as in the tagline of the setting.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

[Wangming]

Ah but the grain in WC3, killed them and turned them into Zombie, adn thehero (Arthas) had to slaughter them turning him to the dark side. - - that was dark, very dark, he genocides the high elves, his home nation and slaughters his own father, and we watch all of that happen.

And would you look at that. It is by far the most popular storyline done by Blizzard. It was also released 20 years ago. You can maybe argue that the campaigns following Arthas are dark fantasy, but not WC3 as a whole, and definitely not WarCraft as a whole.

Funnily enough in the WoW era the closest we get to dark fantasy is a continent where you aren't allowed to feel strong emotions because even doubting yourself enough can give birth to giant monsters that kill all your friends and we can see pretty lasting effects of war on the people and the landscape. Yep, Pandaria.

[Akka]

It's absolutely not "dark".
It's high/epic/bombastic fantasy. "Dark fantasy" would be the Soulsborne serie.

[willtron]

Some folks mention Warhammer, but does it actually show that stuff?

In the books? Yes. The wiki is also an excellent source of lore, summating elements from the books and official handbooks.

Just an example of how severely fucked up it is: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Daemonculaba

The universe is ripe for a very dark and fucked up TV series.

[Darththeo]

No, it is not Dark Fantasy. Not even close.

While some aspects verge on dark fantasy (Worgen and Forsaken storylines) ... it doesn't quite cross into that genre.

Dark Fantasy has two definitions that are not mutually exclusive. Some say it is fantasy with a Horror element, while other just say in is a Dark storylines. WoW doesn't really fit either aspect imo.

[Beloren]

WoW is more in the high fantasy mold, but it does occasionally dip into dark fantasy tropes in certain storylines. The prevailing tone and themes are high fantasy, though.

Star Wars would be High fantasy, a mixture of High fantasy, heroic and epic science fantasy.

Warcraft would be Dark fantasy, heroic fantasy and epic fantasy

[Calfredd]

Poop quests????

Have you never played WoW? The game is full of poop quests. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Poop_quest

2 Reasons:

In Universe, they're so above everything else, that not even Cosmic Pantheons know much about them. Hell, I don't even think Light and Shadow know all too much of these First Ones.

And in game, they're new. Made up on the spot for future WoW lore and to expand upon the Cosmos. SUPPOSEDLY, these guys are the great Architects of all we see. So, who knows...

Can't wait to fight them.

[bloodkin]

The ironic thing is: WoW was a pretty grim setting for most of the races (and humans in particular). Within 20 years the Kingdom of Stormwind got pretty much razed by Orcs (and rebuilt later), the Kingdom of Alterac is pretty much non-existent, Gilneas closed itself off from the other human kingdoms, both the Kingdom of Lordaeron and the Kingdom of Dalaran got destroyed during the Third War, Stromgarde's King gets killed by the Horde same as the King of Kul Tiras, the Kingdom of Stormwind misses its King and has a child crowned instead while it is beset by rebellion and outside foes... that is the world state for humans in Classic. Sadly, they never really managed to portray this in a coherent way.

Also just contrast what you said with this Bolvar Fordragon quote from the Classic quest 'Order Must Be Restored':

Nathanos' accomplishments were unprecedented. He was a tactical genius, responsible for Alliance victories spanning a decade of conflict.

And now... the champion of the Forsaken.

No. This cannot be. Order must be restored.

Gather an army, <name>. Return to the Plagues with your army and destroy the Blightcaller.

I wish you luck, <name>. Truly, you will need it for this battle.

<Highlord Bolvar Fordragon is lost in thought.>

It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed, <name>. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars.

We are indebted to you and I assure you, <name>, wherever Nathanos Marris is now, he smiles down upon you.

It's an incredible loss of depth and flavour, that WoW lost these darker tones thorught the expansions. People try to point out how wow might still be dark in theme, but the way that just a few nameless heroes (us players) are still able to defeat the greatest threats in the universe in little over a year is just sad, vs the state of the universal threat of the legion back in TBC.

All mayor threats since basically cataclysm became single-expansion level issues, rather than real world-ending threats: Oh shit, deathwing broke out and is uber angry, "No worries, with green jebus powers and the true names heroes, he'll be dead in 2 years" rinse and repeat every xpac.

And for those in the know, this same exact thing is also happening in 40k lore: Major new lore characters pop up with incredible powers/abilities that immediately solve millennia old problems in a matter of years and sudden new power ups to certain factions are destroying the grimdark setting, next to the fact that the whole concept of no good-evil dynamic is being worked away, with humanity becoming the good guys for no reason.

To me, it seems that these franchises are being softened, white-washed and generalized, just to increase mainstream appeal and monetary profits. This results in the loss of what makes these fictional universes actually unique and interesting, I hate these companies just make everything bland to transform it into another piece of throwaway media. Fuck that.

[Chriisto]

Hm, it is definitely in the bad game category but dark fantasy? I'm honestly not sure.

[bloodkin]

Show what, bad things happening? Yeah all the time in the Novels

There was a q&a released 2 hours ago with dan abnett where he explains why 40k is the single worst setting to visit or to be alive in or one of the absolute worst.

That was one of the questions he answered atleast and he's regarded as one of the top authors of Warhammer and helped with the script for guardians of the galaxy movies, alien isolation to name some recent stuff he also wrote a shit ton of marvel and dc stuff but mostly Warhammer.

Even the term grimdark comes from 40k as in the tagline of the setting.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

In the meantime GW is doing it's damn best to whitewash the 40k setting. Since moving to 8th, characters like guilliman and cawl and the primaris shit just undermined everything that made 40k unique as a setting. Making mankind into the good guys in general is just bad writing.

The only good thing is that some books are still kind of grimdark and that the horus heresy exists. I've since switched to 30k almost completely.

[Dazmalak]

Back in the rts era of Warcraft 1 and 2, there was some question of whether Azeroth would survive or not. Orcs came in and laid waste to human, dwarven, and elven territory and almost pushed them to the brink, even killing off the hero Lothar in the process. That sense of impending "can we win?" and "will there be anything after?" are what makes a story dark. Uncertainty, loss, tragedy, etc.

I haven't felt that way about Warcraft since 2. I saw the ending of WC3 coming when I realized I'd be playing through each race of the campaign. Everyone unites last minute to save the world...and we've basically been on that story treadmill ever since. No villain has ever felt threatening since then, nor will they ever again. Even when they manage a "victory" it feels like there is no weight behind it. You can tell me all day long about how burning Teldrassil was devastating to the night elves, but I still see a million bimbo smirking purple treehuggers flipping around town like nothing ever happened. Then they throw in "well most everyone escaped" tidbits, followed by their forces retaking darkshore, and it just...doesn't feel like it happened at all.

Same with Undercity. Nuked by plague, leader gone rogue, how do we handle the fact that the leader we worshipped just abandoned us? How do we reconcile our tormented existence with a world that despises and hates us, or come to grips with our darker, twisted tendencies? Well...very easily. Everyone just accepts walking corpses now, they are apparently no longer morally corrupt, and leaders like Calia are here to give hugs and make them feel better about themselves. Not only was their conflict made pointless, it actually just kind of ended all of the Forsaken story arc in one fell swoop.

Every villain comes in with evil plan. Every villain fails to account for the heroes of Azeroth, every villain fails. There are no stakes when victory is guaranteed, and when there is no focus on loss and conflict, it is without a doubt not in the slightest bit "dark" fantasy.

It's more along the lines of high fantasy D&D meets Marvel comics or Power Rangers. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Nerovar]

It's an incredible loss of depth and flavour, that WoW lost these darker tones thorught the expansions. People try to point out how wow might still be dark in theme, but the way that just a few nameless heroes (us players) are still able to defeat the greatest threats in the universe in little over a year is just sad, vs the state of the universal threat of the legion back in TBC.

All mayor threats since basically cataclysm became single-expansion level issues, rather than real world-ending threats: Oh shit, deathwing broke out and is uber angry, "No worries, with green jebus powers and the true names heroes, he'll be dead in 2 years" rinse and repeat every xpac.

And for those in the know, this same exact thing is also happening in 40k lore: Major new lore characters pop up with incredible powers/abilities that immediately solve millennia old problems in a matter of years and sudden new power ups to certain factions are destroying the grimdark setting, next to the fact that the whole concept of no good-evil dynamic is being worked away, with humanity becoming the good guys for no reason.

To me, it seems that these franchises are being softened, white-washed and generalized, just to increase mainstream appeal and monetary profits. This results in the loss of what makes these fictional universes actually unique and interesting, I hate these companies just make everything bland to transform it into another piece of throwaway media. Fuck that.

Pretty much agree with everything you said. In regards to 40k it's particularly tragic. I went from huge 40k fan who read almost every novel to "don't care" within a few years. They've fucked things up big time.

At this point, I don't even want to engage with these fictional settings because all it takes is one guy in a suit making a decision to ruin pretty much all of it. Nothing is safe or sacred. Everything is for sale.

[TheFirstOnes]

But while we play the hero in the wow quests, the main story line isn't centred around us, it is around the big guns like Sylvanas, Anduin, the Jailer etc, and that's just wow, remember warcraft is bigger than wow, so we must look at the games before wow, the books and comics too.

The main story is centered around us. The hell?

- - - Updated - - -

Have you never played WoW? The game is full of poop quests. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Poop_questCan't wait to fight them.

...

Whatchu tryna say, boy?

[Magical Mudcrab]

the Imperium of Man

The Imperium of Man is also a horrific bad guy; the "good guys" are also genocidal, xenophobic zealots who would rather condemn a billion souls to death than allow for the possibility for heretical cells, in the single digits in terms of members, to exist.

[bloodkin]

Pretty much agree with everything you said. In regards to 40k it's particularly tragic. I went from huge 40k fan who read almost every novel to "don't care" within a few years. They've fucked things up big time.

At this point, I don't even want to engage with these fictional settings because all it takes is one guy in a suit making a decision to ruin pretty much all of it. Nothing is safe or sacred. Everything is for sale.

that's why I moved over to the horus heresy setting, It still retains the grimdark setting (even with all the primarchs there) and the tragedy of the entire setting just makes it neigh impossible to whitewash. It's a bit tragic that we lost Alan Bligh, but it seems as if forgeworld is gearing up on a good few updates to HH again.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The Imperium of Man is also a horrific bad guy; the "good guys" are also genocidal, xenophobic zealots who would rather condemn a billion souls to death than allow for the possibility for heretical cells, in the single digits in terms of members, to exist.

To be fair, almost all alien races in Warhammer 40k would try to wipe out humanity too. The only exceptions are the Eldar... and they enslave the humans they come across, which ain't exactly good.

[VladlTutushkin]

Imagine having this bad a take.

Its not a "take" its how it is. They want one shitty narrative - they go for it. They grow tired of it and dont want to write any consequences - they roll out another, opposite narrative.