20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[kenn9530]

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The evidence is plain to see that 10 man was easier overall in most fights, WotlK 10 mans were so much easier than 25 man, and that is true for all other expansions, there are a few bosses that are harder but thats mainly because of blizz's inability to tune.

If you dont already have CE then your a casual mythic raider and at this point players would be taking a break anyway as wiping on the same boss for several weeks can get tiresome, WoW is a game ppl take breaks between raids or your going to burn out.

Raider.io ist the Problem, not the anser. its the same with ilvl xxx, achievement and so on. Fuck this shit

No we need a way to see how good players are, the problem is players that are not skilled enough wasting your time if you have no way to check if they are at even a reasonable skill level, dont blame the tools when its the players that cause the issues.

Its not fun to waste 2 hours or more in a m+ because you have bad players when it could be done in 30 mins, its not hard to learn everything you need to do and not waste ppls time.

[Popokolara]

Honestly if guilds relied less on poaching "talent" and started teaching what they can get, then perhaps this game might have been in better shape.

People always rag on individuals being entitled, but by god social group entitlement is orders of magnitude worse. You (plural) don't deserve to be offered your choice of perfectly suited talent, you deserve to take what is willing to join you and nothing more.

Don't whine about being given iron ore, refine it and forge that sword you want yourself.

while i appreciate the horror of poaching, i think the whole idea is romantic but not well thought out. One not all players can be refined as you say, why would i not try to unite people around my skill level and form my bond, but take whatever washes up to me - quoting you "what is willing to join you and nothing more" - and try to teach them as if i am doing ffa coaching, and then find out only a few were worth it? what do you mean what is wiling to join me? do you knowq how many 8/10 hc people want to join CE guilds? ludicrous idea.

Second, people who care, they care and try to improve, personal ability is part of desire to become good and thats not something you teach people, you recognise it where it exists and can help but up to there. if someone doesnt want to be very very good, he wont be.

so really what you are saying is surprising to put it politely.

Being a guild hopper is seperate from being a good player, but it is absolutely normal and not unethical or whatever other negative adjective we want to identify it as, when in a vastly skill diverse roster the best elements move on.

[Zyky]

The only real solution is to scrap the content completely. Too few players get to enjoy it, the grind to get there is too intense, and the environment gets too toxic. The continuous never-ending chase for better gear that gives higher numbers and in turn an illusion of skill is what is destroying the game, and it hits especially hard when the pool of players with good enough gear dries out and yet another guild dissolves.

WotLK hit a nice balance of how hard the hardest content should be and the time and effort it takes to get there. Classic is also a good example that easy raids has great staying power. Easy = lighter mood => enjoyable and fun. We have lost a few players since 2019, but our guild still has 2 full Naxx raids going each week that's clearing in 2-3 hours, largely because the environment is non-toxic.

It's really not the only solution, look at what FFXIV does, it's massively successful with 2 raid sizes that have different forms of rewards. They have 8 man content that awards the best gear, but they also have a 24 man qued system that awards slightly lower IL AND currency to purchase BiS gear equal to the 8 man raids. The hardest 8 man raids are the only place to get top end weapons and the only way to obtain a special cosmetic appearances for your weapons, as well as a special title for achieving the kill.

The problem is that Blizzard developers have proven time and time again that they only half develop content and systems and then tell players that they'll "do better next time" and never do better. They continuously show how out of touch they are with the community, like the most recent interview with Ion saying that Conduit Energy isn't a problem, and the new garbage Torghast system being forced upon us that nobody wants. They refuse to acknowledge that 20 man Mythic isn't as successful as they want it to be, that or they're actually delusional to the point that they think 20 man Mythic -is- actually successful at which point they're never going to be on the same page as the players.

[neescher]

"Fewer player means dumbing content down" doesn't necessarily have to be true. Just look at heroic Nathria. It's *much* easier the more players you have. Raiding heroic Nathria with 10 players might as well be a different difficulty than 25-30 players. So that's not really an argument

[Popokolara]

"Fewer player means dumbing content down" doesn't necessarily have to be true. Just look at heroic Nathria. It's *much* easier the more players you have. Raiding heroic Nathria with 10 players might as well be a different difficulty than 25-30 players. So that's not really an argument

doesnt make much sense using difficulty that is missing mechanics

[Freedom]

Raider.io is mere a symptom.
As you say yourself, it used to be gearscore (later turned into ilvl), and achievements.

The problem is the players. if I'm going to spend my free time doing activities with others I want some way of knowing those random people are capable of doing the content.
Nothing you do will stop players from trying to judge if other players are good enough to do the content with them.

Every time I hear people complaining about GearScore, "link achiv pls", r.io, logs, DPS meters, I just assume they don't understand time, human nature and the world very well, or that they're bad players looking for a carry. Maybe both.

[Noctiphobia]

The evidence is plain to see that 10 man was easier overall in most fights, WotlK 10 mans were so much easier than 25 man,

Probably has something to do with the fact that in WotLK, they were specifically designed to be easier than 25 mans, and accordingly dropped lower loot. As opposed to the later expansions, where 10 and 25 man were supposed to be more or less equal.

and that is true for all other expansions, there are a few bosses that are harder but thats mainly because of blizz's inability to tune.

[citation needed]

I get it that a lot people prefer playing with a larger group because it feels more "epic" or whatever. But making things up to convince everyone that somehow your preference is objectively better and completing challenges in your preferred mode is more valuable doesn't help the discussion.

In my view, the more players, the less your individual contribution matters, the less relationships you have with other raiders, and the more hassle it becomes to get people to do stuff. But of course, the fewer players, the more constrained your design decisions are.

[Temp name]

Raider.io ist the Problem, not the anser. its the same with ilvl xxx, achievement and so on. Fuck this shit

If I'm going to play with randoms, I want to make sure they can do the content so I don't waste my time. R.io helps with that, as do ilvl, achievements, and logs. Remove io, and people will fall back to just ilvl / achievements / logs.

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The evidence is plain to see that 10 man was easier overall in most fights, WotlK 10 mans were so much easier than 25 man,

they were specifically tuned to be. There's a reason 10 man gave worse gear than 25

and that is true for all other expansions, there are a few bosses that are harder but thats mainly because of blizz's inability to tune.

Ah yeah, there's a reason why 10 man was killed faster than 25.. Oh no, wait, they weren't.
Wasn't the first Ragnaros 10 heroic kill done by a 25 man guild having fun a couple weeks later?
Same with pretty much every other end boss

[kenn9530]

snip

Simple fact is a 10 man team is a pathetic size and not even remotely a raid sized team, the content is easier by far

snip

The first kills are still not a good measurement of difficulty especially since blizz are useless at balancing a fight and it take many months to sort out properly, 10 mans geared slower but that doesnt mean a fight was harder, also in MoP both raid sizes dropped the same level of gear so it shared a lockout so you had to do one size that week.

Simple fact is 10 man is not a real raid size, it should be a large team requiring coordination to take down a strong enemy.

MoP was so easy to find groups i pugged all the content at the highest difficulty since i came back around the 2nd raid tier.

[kaminaris]

Simple fact is a 10 man team is a pathetic size and not even remotely a raid sized team, the content is easier by far



The first kills are still not a good measurement of difficulty especially since blizz are useless at balancing a fight and it take many months to sort out properly, 10 mans geared slower but that doesnt mean a fight was harder, also in MoP both raid sizes dropped the same level of gear so it shared a lockout so you had to do one size that week.

Simple fact is 10 man is not a real raid size, it should be a large team requiring coordination to take down a strong enemy.

MoP was so easy to find groups i pugged all the content at the highest difficulty since i came back around the 2nd raid tier.

Pure delusion. 10 man's was roughly equal difficulty as 25. With the exception that 25s were more tolerant to failures. Pathetic is being a small cog that doesn't mean much.

[kenn9530]

Pure delusion. 10 man's was roughly equal difficulty as 25. With the exception that 25s were more tolerant to failures. Pathetic is being a small cog that doesn't mean much.

The pure delusion is yourself, i did all the content both 10 and 25 man and its a fact 10 man was just easier, easier to find ppl and easier to handle the game mechanics, stop trying to project your lies to justify your opinions.

[kneehidude]

Honestly if guilds relied less on poaching "talent" and started teaching what they can get, then perhaps this game might have been in better shape.

People always rag on individuals being entitled, but by god social group entitlement is orders of magnitude worse. You (plural) don't deserve to be offered your choice of perfectly suited talent, you deserve to take what is willing to join you and nothing more.

Don't whine about being given iron ore, refine it and forge that sword you want yourself.

To be fair, guilds do this to some extent. I think guilds realize that most of the time they aren't going to get people at or above their progression to recruit from. But there has to be some modicum of "you're not too far behind us" as well when looking at applicants. Like if you're just starting mythics, and someone applies and they don't have AotC, but have killed everything else on heroic, you should take a chance with them. But if they're missing half of the bosses on heroic then you should probably pass on them.

The reverse is also true for people looking for guilds. Stop trying to go from 1-2 heroic kills to AotC. You're not there yet, work on getting some more kills then try and move onto AotC.

[Gaidax]

Pure delusion. 10 man's was roughly equal difficulty as 25. With the exception that 25s were more tolerant to failures. Pathetic is being a small cog that doesn't mean much.

Haha no...

10 man mode had overwhelmingly simplified encounters tailored to smaller raid with less flexibility. There were a few encounters that were arguably equally difficult and an odd encounter where 10 man was more difficult, but it was exception, not the rule.

[kaminaris]

Haha no...

10 man mode had overwhelmingly simplified encounters tailored to smaller raid with less flexibility. There were a few encounters that were arguably equally difficult and an odd encounter where 10 man was more difficult, but it was exception, not the rule.

Haha no...

10 mans for overwhelming majority of guilds was harder simply because everyone had to pull out their weight. Pair that with limited combat resses (seems like people forgot that ress counter limit wasn't a thing back then) and you will have very tight encounters.

I don't know where this nonsense is coming from but certainly not from experience. Probably from wowprogress or thinking about early iterations before cata/mop.

When blizzard finally polished their design (right before scrapping it) it was roughly similar difficulty.

[Gaidax]

Haha no...

10 mans for overwhelming majority of guilds was harder simply because everyone had to pull out their weight. Pair that with limited combat resses (seems like people forgot that ress counter limit wasn't a thing back then) and you will have very tight encounters.

I don't know where this nonsense is coming from but certainly not from experience. Probably from wowprogress or thinking about early iterations before cata/mop.

When blizzard finally polished their design (right before scrapping it) it was roughly similar difficulty.

You tell me that, but I raided 10 man for much of its existence before moving on.

What you say is a bunch of bullshit based on some logical fallacy, with that logic you might as well say that dungeons are even harder, after all - everyone has to pull their weight even more in 5 man setting.

But frankly, you can say whatever you want - everyone worth their salt sees through your BS anyway, so I am not sure what's the point even. Trying to impress the 3 new players prowling MMO-C, I guess.

[Zantera]

I think the hardest part of recruitment as an officer is finding the right person and not the right player. Finding that person who will show up to every raid (or most at least) with a dedication to get bosses down, someone who is happy to be in the guild and fits into the community overall. You can find good players everywhere but so many of them lack the mindset of what raiding actually requires and those players are usually the reason you keep recruiting every other week because you never know.

If you find the right person with the right mindset who can take criticism and wants to improve, you can always turn that person into a better player if he is lacking a little bit in rotation or whatever. I don't think you can pull it off the other way around, where you have a good player who is lacking those other parts and you can teach them how to become a better suited raider.

[kaminaris]

You tell me that, but I raided 10 man for much of its existence before moving on.

What you say is a bunch of bullshit based on some logical fallacy, with that logic you might as well say that dungeons are even harder, after all - everyone has to pull their weight even more in 5 man setting.

But frankly, you can say whatever you want - everyone worth their salt sees through your BS anyway, so I am not sure what's the point even. Trying to impress the 3 new players prowling MMO-C, I guess.

You sure did bud. Like even the kill dates are roughly the same in last 2 tiers where 10/25 was a thing. But im guessing you killed it faster than method or paragon.

My BS? Haha, lets check the facts shall we?

T15
10m Ra-den: Apr 17, 2013 20:05
25m Ra-den: Apr 11, 2013 18:32

T16
10m Garrosh: Oct 5, 2013 16:24
25m Garrosh: Oct 1, 2013 00:03

It is you who is BS right now. Or you are trying to prove your point by using oldest tiers where 10 man was literally designed to be easier.

[Popokolara]

have all of you zealous champions of the one objective truth wondered where the time of kill is also affected by the aims of each group, wether they considered 10 or 25 the "real" race, and wether you actually have similarly skilled groups of 10 and 25 people each competing into a different setting? Because if you dont, you could be arguing that since grp a beat the boss on size b, and grp c beat size d, d is automatically harder. Whereas c might simply have been worse players or spending a lot less time.

Today echo and limit are considered similarly focused and resource and time rich so we get a decent race.
The race in the 10/25 era was nebulous due to the split of time and focus and community perception affecting the idea of the real race.

[Gaidax]

*snip*

Nice cherry picking, but ultimately it does not mean anything.

25 man was always much more competitive than 10 man raiding, it's no wonder world first kills there happened faster.

It's practically like your case, see - you're banned - so you're out of competition for next several pages of this thread, because you just can't do it to begin with. While people who can reply - will do it just fine. They will get their replies first.

[Tronski]

It's really not the only solution, look at what FFXIV does, it's massively successful with 2 raid sizes that have different forms of rewards. They have 8 man content that awards the best gear, but they also have a 24 man qued system that awards slightly lower IL AND currency to purchase BiS gear equal to the 8 man raids. The hardest 8 man raids are the only place to get top end weapons and the only way to obtain a special cosmetic appearances for your weapons, as well as a special title for achieving the kill.

The problem is that Blizzard developers have proven time and time again that they only half develop content and systems and then tell players that they'll "do better next time" and never do better. They continuously show how out of touch they are with the community, like the most recent interview with Ion saying that Conduit Energy isn't a problem, and the new garbage Torghast system being forced upon us that nobody wants. They refuse to acknowledge that 20 man Mythic isn't as successful as they want it to be, that or they're actually delusional to the point that they think 20 man Mythic -is- actually successful at which point they're never going to be on the same page as the players.

I agree. There's plenty of ways difficult content could be done, but the current model is definitely the wrong way. The real problem is that ActiBlizzard worries more about staying power and time spent than the enjoyment of the content, and that is what creates problems where the bottleneck tightens.

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Nice cherry picking, but ultimately it does not mean anything.

25 man was always much more competitive than 10 man raiding, it's no wonder world first kills there happened faster.

It's practically like your case, see - you're banned - so you're out of competition for next several pages of this thread, because you just can't do it to begin with. While people who can reply - will do it just fine. They will get their replies first.

To be fair, so are you. But you are completely missing why 25m was more popular than 10m; The rewards were simply that much better for virtually the same effort. Often 25m even felt easier than 10m to boot. With one exception: The no death-run achievement/chest in TotC in Wotlk. Very much easier on 10m.