Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[Depakote]

So the truth is bait? Weird how it is only your flawed "observation" that is accepted by you.

But you speak no truth. You speak your opinion which honestly is a bit jaded and condescending while ignoring the people in this thread saying what they want and you taking it like they want ilvl 999999 gear or something. It's not really helpful or productive to the thread.

[rhorle]

Never claimed to want the best gear, that's just a myth you guys are trying to spread about me. Look as far and wide as you're able, you'll never find a post of me asking for 226 gear from WQs. I just want to be able to progress to decent gear on my own, enough to make it so that I'm not utterly crushed if I queue for a BG. I just want to be able to play the game when other people cannot be relied upon.

The gear you are stopped from progressing to currently is on the way to best. Normal, Heroic, and Mythic raid level gear. Mythic +5 and higher. You keep saying it is a myth while demanding you have a way to progress to the best gear. You can't have it both ways. If you are not willing, or able, to do Normal raids, or higher Mythic+ then what are you going to get gear from if not World Quests?

You won't be utterly crushed if you join a battleground in ~200 item level gear. You can play the game when other people can not be relied upon. You just think you can't do it with out having higher levels of gear rather. It isn't a game design problem here but your perception of what is required and what you are entitled to.

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But you speak no truth. You speak your opinion which honestly is a bit jaded and condescending while ignoring the people in this thread saying what they want and you taking it like they want ilvl 999999 gear or something. It's not really helpful or productive to the thread.

The item level of my character is an opinion? The only one thinking they want item level 999999 gear is you. Weird how you have to use hyberbole and insults in order to make an argument. Sorry not insults but "observations" that just happen to paint a poster in a negative light. There is no need to progress to higher gear level then you can get in Shadowlands if you are not doing the content that rewards that higher item level.

But lets humor your ridiculous argument. If they are not content with Mythic +4/5 gear from World Quests and Mythic +6 gear from Covenant Anima upgrade what item level are they asking for and should get? The problem is those that feel entitled to higher gear with out doing the content because you are already rewarded relatively high gear from solo activities.

[arkanon]

Yeah, the victim blaming culture of this community is worrisome.

How can you be a victim? you dont own shadowlands and have never played it - you have stated this many times.

[Tadkins]

You won't be utterly crushed if you join a battleground in ~200 item level gear. You can play the game when other people can not be relied upon. You just think you can't do it with out having higher levels of gear rather. It isn't a game design problem here but your perception of what is required and what you are entitled to.

You're going to get crushed in random battlegrounds without a pathway to decent gear. Ilvl disparity in PvP is a real thing right now.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...sparity/958668

[rhorle]

You're going to get crushed in random battlegrounds without a pathway to decent gear. Ilvl disparity in PvP is a real thing right now.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...sparity/958668

I haven't been crushed in item level 201 gear and seem to have the same average of wins and losses since I have never officially tracked the stuff. Everything you've posted indicates that item level will not be the driving factor in you being crushed. It may exist but it isn't that big of a thing in random battlegrounds. 1400 to 1599 rating is only 207.

It isn't that big of a gap unless you are not that good at PvP in which case the performance rather then gear is the bigger issue.

[Lurker1]

They’re designing that content around the playerbase that plays it the most. You aren’t the target audience anymore. So either get on board or keep quiet and continue buying the “store mount”-bone they throwout every now and then to appease players who don’t push that content.

Wrong not even close.

[Tadkins]

I haven't been crushed in item level 201 gear and seem to have the same average of wins and losses since I have never officially tracked the stuff. Everything you've posted indicates that item level will not be the driving factor in you being crushed. It may exist but it isn't that big of a thing in random battlegrounds. 1400 to 1599 rating is only 207.

It isn't that big of a gap unless you are not that good at PvP in which case the performance rather then gear is the bigger issue.

If things were on an even footing, and we had ilvl brackets or ilvl caps or something similar, and I still lost, that would be totally different. I'd rather lose a skill based fight than a gear based one. At least if I lost due to a lack of skill, I still had a chance to win and I could actually learn something from my loss, and maybe come back to win again next time. If it's due to gear, then there is absolutely no hope of ever winning or ever getting better. What reason would I have to pay for a game knowing that?

[rhorle]

If things were on an even footing, and we had ilvl brackets or ilvl caps or something similar, and I still lost, that would be totally different. I'd rather lose a skill based fight than a gear based one. At least if I lost due to a lack of skill, I still had a chance to win and I could actually learn something from my loss, and maybe come back to win again next time. If it's due to gear, then there is absolutely no hope of ever winning or ever getting better. What reason would I have to pay for a game knowing that?

In a random battleground it is rarely one person that determines a win or a loss. You keep putting the entire focus on yourself rather then the entire team which might be part of the reason why you get obliterated the moment you step into a battleground. There is hope for getting better gear but working towards it. You choose not to. If you don't choose to do the content the game offers then there is no reason to pay for that game any longer.

Why do you make that into a bad thing? You keep arguing as if quitting what you no longer enjoy or want to play is bad. You would be just as likely to quit once you hit whatever "not the best gear" wall of progression you are asking for. Right? Because you would still would have progression stopped relatively to others that do more content. You would still have to face people with better gear because even with brackets it would be a range.

Skill and how you play has a bigger impact. And all your previous posts about raiding, asking class discords to tweak your rotations, being upset that you need to provide logs for any guild recruitment etc point out that you are using the gear gap as the scapegoat rather then a true remedy. You get the entry level gear for all content easily. Why should you get mid to high level gear with out having to do mid to high level play?

[Tadkins]

In a random battleground it is rarely one person that determines a win or a loss. You keep putting the entire focus on yourself rather then the entire team which might be part of the reason why you get obliterated the moment you step into a battleground. There is hope for getting better gear but working towards it. You choose not to. If you don't choose to do the content the game offers then there is no reason to pay for that game any longer.

Why do you make that into a bad thing? You keep arguing as if quitting what you no longer enjoy or want to play is bad. You would be just as likely to quit once you hit whatever "not the best gear" wall of progression you are asking for. Right? Because you would still would have progression stopped relatively to others that do more content. You would still have to face people with better gear because even with brackets it would be a range.

Skill and how you play has a bigger impact. And all your previous posts about raiding, asking class discords to tweak your rotations, being upset that you need to provide logs for any guild recruitment etc point out that you are using the gear gap as the scapegoat rather then a true remedy. You get the entry level gear for all content easily. Why should you get mid to high level gear with out having to do mid to high level play?

It's precisely because of the team that I want to be able to contribute and survive to a battleground. What does one do if you are undergeared, and the rest of the team happens to leave you solo defending the mine? I could spend the entire game attached to the main group like a baby to its mother, but if that group is not playing smart, and doing things like leaving nodes undefended and letting flag carriers run by, what can I do?

As it stands, there is no hope of getting better gear when you don't have any friends, can't find folks to play with for arena that won't bail on you after a single loss, and won't invite you to any content. When a player has to deal with all of this to get into the higher end.

You honestly don't see this as a problem? I'm only asking for a chance, to be able to play the game when things are stacked so heavily against me. Right now I am not paying for the game, but as someone who genuinely loved WoW, I would love to have a reason to come back. Right now that is a terrifying prospect, knowing what would be in store for me.

[Frozenbro]

You honestly don't see this as a problem? I'm only asking for a chance, to be able to play the game when things are stacked so heavily against me. Right now I am not paying for the game, but as someone who genuinely loved WoW, I would love to have a reason to come back. Right now that is a terrifying prospect, knowing what would be in store for me.

If i were you i would delete that image, its completely false cause:

1- You dont play the game atm, so you absolutely have no idea about the difficulty curve of the pve content.
2- More than half of the stuff you listed in that silly image are things used and/or needed on high end content, content you already admitted you arent going to do or try to do at all.
3- When trying to make a point, you try to have experience on the matter so your opinion is an informed one, yours isnt, and on top of that you try to present them as a fact.

Could you stop with your missinfo once and for all? plenty of people have already proven you wrong and told you that you have a biased opinion and that you exaggerate your points to the point of all of it being straight lies, you wanna give your opinion? cool, get some info and experience first then voice it, otherwise its all lies, just like this post and many others.

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It isn't that big of a gap unless you are not that good at PvP in which case the performance rather then gear is the bigger issue.

"Frankly thats a skill issue" - Ion 2021

[rhorle]

You honestly don't see this as a problem? I'm only asking for a chance, to be able to play the game when things are stacked so heavily against me. Right now I am not paying for the game, but as someone who genuinely loved WoW, I would love to have a reason to come back. Right now that is a terrifying prospect, knowing what would be in store for me.

We have been over this before. You don't need most of that for Normal mode raiding. Rotation, cool down timing, gems, enchants, stat weights, trinkt usage are all able to be gotten from a quick read of a guide. You don't need simcraft because the guides tell you what is good for the class.

You don't need Raider IO unless you are doing high keys which the score will come naturally as you pug since guilds are not required. Guilds do make it easier though. A dedicated time commitment is needed for any sort of regular group play so if you don't want to choose to commit then that is your choice.

Renown is super easy to gain now that we are way past waiting each week. Even then you didn't need it past your first soul bind. Legendaries only take two weeks to get when you have all 8 layers unlocked.

You never genuinely loved wow if you hate all the things you think are required for Normal raiding or equivalent M+. Because that stuff has always been needed going back all the way to Vanilla. If the team leaves you solo then you'll be out of luck anyways. Because chances are it won't be a 1v1 duel when some one attacks the mine. You keep creating all of these excuses for why the game is terrible. When it all comes down to you creating artificial barriers and being upset that a guild doesn't treat you special.

[Tadkins]

We have been over this before. You don't need most of that for Normal mode raiding. Rotation, cool down timing, gems, enchants, stat weights, trinkt usage are all able to be gotten from a quick read of a guide. You don't need simcraft because the guides tell you what is good for the class.

You don't need Raider IO unless you are doing high keys which the score will come naturally as you pug since guilds are not required. Guilds do make it easier though. A dedicated time commitment is needed for any sort of regular group play so if you don't want to choose to commit then that is your choice.

Renown is super easy to gain now that we are way past waiting each week. Even then you didn't need it past your first soul bind. Legendaries only take two weeks to get when you have all 8 layers unlocked.

You never genuinely loved wow if you hate all the things you think are required for Normal raiding or equivalent M+. Because that stuff has always been needed going back all the way to Vanilla. If the team leaves you solo then you'll be out of luck anyways. Because chances are it won't be a 1v1 duel when some one attacks the mine. You keep creating all of these excuses for why the game is terrible. When it all comes down to you creating artificial barriers and being upset that a guild doesn't treat you special.

Look at the link I provided for you. Someone at 192 ilvl is going to die in seconds in any form of PvP, whether it's a random battleground or a rated PvP setting.

Normal raiding from what I understand is also worthless, in that the ilvl it gives you is also accessible from non-group content anyway. What of heroic raiding, where all those various stresses presented in the picture are necessary to take on?

What would be so bad about an equalizer for random PvP, whether it be ilvl brackets or ilvl caps? If I'm going to lose due to a skill issue, then let it be a skill issue. I'd have no grounds to complain there as any loss would be entirely on me. Is it really necessary that I keep getting destroyed as a 28k player by 45k+ folks? Again, how am I supposed to be able to find that fun, and what hope would there be for someone like me to ever have a chance against that? Worse yet, why would I pay 15 bucks a month to endure an unfair setting like that?

[rhorle]

Look at the link I provided for you. Someone at 192 ilvl is going to die in seconds in any form of PvP, whether it's a random battleground or a rated PvP setting.

Your link only has a forum post of a claim. If a forum post alone makes things true then we both can't be wrong and both have to be right. You don't die in seconds at around 200 item level. 192 is close to that but you'll die quickly if you get ganged up on regardless of gear. Which happens a lot in battlegrounds since it is mob style play.

Normal raiding is 200/207. Heroic is 213/220. Mythic is 226/233. If you think normal is useless then you want Heroic to come easy since you've eliminated the best gear from earlier statements which would be Mythic. All of those stresses presented in the picture are not required for Heroic raiding either. Because majority of them are you inventing things to be stressed about when guides answer 75% of that list in a few mins of reading. And many of those things are split into separate things when they are all part of the same easy to find and read guide.

Is there anything wrong with brackets for PvP? Not really. But there are downsides to splitting up the population with Random play based on gear. Brackets still doesn't eliminate your issue though since it would split people up to much and length queue times and bring up other problems. Casual play gets to item level 200 with out much effort. A few mythic+, a time walking raid, the weekly quests that offer loot. All things easy to pug and you'd be out of the sub 200 bracket.

How would you split up the rest of the brackets? If you include Normal with Heroic you still have the gear gap you've complained about. If you include heroic with Mythic you have the gear gap. If you have 4 brackets "Default, Normal, Heroic, Mythic" for random BG's then you split up a lot of the player pool and likely those at higher gear levels will have long queue times.

It also brings in the concept of having to wearing lower gear just to see some reasonable queue times. You are losing to a skill issue. Because 90% of the things you keep listing as barriers to a "casual" gearing up is based on the players skill. You don't get destroyed as a 28k player because you don't play the game currently. That 45K+ player would likely destroy you anyways since they had the skill to get that gear. So why is it really a problem that you got destroyed?

You also underestimate the impact individuals have in random battlegrounds. Even delaying the enemy by being fodder can help out the team. Stuns, buffs, utility etc can all help even if you have a little lower gear. But that again would require skill because you have to understand your class and the way to play it. Something you keep saying is super difficult and only something a Heroic raider should be required to learn.

But if you don't enjoy a game. Then quit playing it. Why would you do anything you no longer enjoy or actively avoid playing parts of? And to be fair having a brackets for random battlegrounds likely wouldn't keep you playing because you still wouldn't have any progression. The PvP argument is just something you've latched on when everything else has failed.

[Tadkins]

Your link only has a forum post of a claim. If a forum post alone makes things true then we both can't be wrong and both have to be right. You don't die in seconds at around 200 item level. 192 is close to that but you'll die quickly if you get ganged up on regardless of gear. Which happens a lot in battlegrounds since it is mob style play.

The general consensus in that thread seems to indicate that it is how it works. No one's talking about getting mobbed in there, of course I expect to die 1v5. I'm talking about 1v1 situations which do happen quite a bit in random BGs. Being left alone with a node, getting ambushed on the road trying to get back to your group, being the only one bothering to try to slow the FC down while your team fights in the middle, etc etc. On top of the prelevent carry purchases that seem to be happening these days, is every single person in that thread wrong?

Normal raiding is 200/207. Heroic is 213/220. Mythic is 226/233. If you think normal is useless then you want Heroic to come easy since you've eliminated the best gear from earlier statements which would be Mythic. All of those stresses presented in the picture are not required for Heroic raiding either. Because majority of them are you inventing things to be stressed about when guides answer 75% of that list in a few mins of reading. And many of those things are split into separate things when they are all part of the same easy to find and read guide.

Heroic was always my pinnacle, and AotC was the highest I ever tried to reach for in this game. Mythic seems beyond me. BfA allowed me to have heroic level gear even while solo though, just by capping my conquest every week. What would be so wrong with having that back?

Is there anything wrong with brackets for PvP? Not really. But there are downsides to splitting up the population with Random play based on gear. Brackets still doesn't eliminate your issue though since it would split people up to much and length queue times and bring up other problems. Casual play gets to item level 200 with out much effort. A few mythic+, a time walking raid, the weekly quests that offer loot. All things easy to pug and you'd be out of the sub 200 bracket.

How would you split up the rest of the brackets? If you include Normal with Heroic you still have the gear gap you've complained about. If you include heroic with Mythic you have the gear gap. If you have 4 brackets "Default, Normal, Heroic, Mythic" for random BG's then you split up a lot of the player pool and likely those at higher gear levels will have long queue times.

It also brings in the concept of having to wearing lower gear just to see some reasonable queue times. You are losing to a skill issue. Because 90% of the things you keep listing as barriers to a "casual" gearing up is based on the players skill. You don't get destroyed as a 28k player because you don't play the game currently. That 45K+ player would likely destroy you anyways since they had the skill to get that gear. So why is it really a problem that you got destroyed?

Simplest fix would be to just cap random BGs at 200ilvl for everyone. I'd be okay with that. It would make sense too, as you don't see heroic dungeon bosses randomly turning into their +15 tyrannical incarnations, right? It would be fair. But if not that, if we had ilvl brackets. I would in fact wait an extra 5-10 minutes for a game if it meant fighting people my size. There's other things they could probably do too. Fairness is all I'm asking for and I don't think that's a lot.

You also underestimate the impact individuals have in random battlegrounds. Even delaying the enemy by being fodder can help out the team. Stuns, buffs, utility etc can all help even if you have a little lower gear. But that again would require skill because you have to understand your class and the way to play it. Something you keep saying is super difficult and only something a Heroic raider should be required to learn.

That is contrary to my experiences last expansion, when folks with lower gear would just get crapped on by both sides in a random BG. One-two shotted by the enemy team, and yelled at/insulted by their own team for taking up a slot. Aside from that, no one wants to be fodder. No one cares that the undergeared person maybe got a lucky stun off on some guy. Nobody ever gives that guy credit.

But if you don't enjoy a game. Then quit playing it. Why would you do anything you no longer enjoy or actively avoid playing parts of? And to be fair having a brackets for random battlegrounds likely wouldn't keep you playing because you still wouldn't have any progression. The PvP argument is just something you've latched on when everything else has failed.

Because I genuinely loved the world of Azeroth and always felt like I had a place here until now. I've spent so much time since I was 15 years old playing Orcs and Humans. I own hundreds of dollars in merchandise. 2/5ths of my bookshelf is filled with Warcraft books. I was a huge fan, and it seriously depresses me to have to be driven out like this. But the community has just become extremely harsh, judgmental and exclusionary, while the devs seem to be endorsing that mindset wholeheartedly. They seem more preoccupied with building e-sports than building a world, and folks like me who have trouble competing and just want to enjoy the world just don't feel welcome anymore.

[Frozenbro]

The general consensus in that thread seems to indicate that it is how it works.

A post made by some random guy in wow forums which has 17 likes (when widely accepted opinions/threads over there have over 300 likes and hundred of posts) = general consensus, no need to dive further beyond this, irrelevant.

[kaminaris]

Because I genuinely loved the world of Azeroth and always felt like I had a place here until now. I've spent so much time since I was 15 years old playing Orcs and Humans. I own hundreds of dollars in merchandise. 2/5ths of my bookshelf is filled with Warcraft books. I was a huge fan, and it seriously depresses me to have to be driven out like this. But the community has just become extremely harsh, judgmental and exclusionary, while the devs seem to be endorsing that mindset wholeheartedly. They seem more preoccupied with building e-sports than building a world, and folks like me who have trouble competing and just want to enjoy the world just don't feel welcome anymore.

Do yourself a favor and quit, some people are simply unable to understand why ship is sinking and their Stockholm syndrome is kicking in. So they are apologizing every shit decision blizzard is making saying nonsense like "its fine", "just make your own group", "it was always like this", "they will fix it in the future".

Thats the direction blizzard is heading, hamstrings, annoyances, player engagment metric game design, rat race and esports.

On the bright side hopefully wotlk is coming out after tbc.

[Depakote]

Do yourself a favor and quit, some people are simply unable to understand why ship is sinking and their Stockholm syndrome is kicking in. So they are apologizing every shit decision blizzard is making saying nonsense like "its fine", "just make your own group", "it was always like this", "they will fix it in the future".

Thats the direction blizzard is heading, hamstrings, annoyances, player engagment metric game design, rat race and esports.

On the bright side hopefully wotlk is coming out after tbc.

Why would one give money to a company that has destroyed what they once loved? How would they learn the error of their ways?

[rhorle]

The general consensus in that thread seems to indicate that it is how it works. No one's talking about getting mobbed in there, of course I expect to die 1v5. I'm talking about 1v1 situations which do happen quite a bit in random BGs. Being left alone with a node, getting ambushed on the road trying to get back to your group, being the only one bothering to try to slow the FC down while your team fights in the middle, etc etc. On top of the prelevent carry purchases that seem to be happening these days, is every single person in that thread wrong?

Which is still one less person to harass your team mates. Fighting in the middle of the map, on the roads, or otherwise off of objectives isn't the best game play. So even an enemy doing that slows them down and helps. Being left alone on a node is a toss up. Sometimes it is poor or sometimes there isn't much of a need for defense. Or it is better to be flexible depending on the class kit.

BfA allowed me to have heroic level gear even while solo though, just by capping my conquest every week. What would be so wrong with having that back?

Nothing really wrong with it. But it happened over the course of the expansion and you were still terrible the entire time it took to get a full set of heroic gear. Right? The problem then is the same problem you say exists now. The difference was your perception of the problem. Did your ability in 1v1 middle of the map encounters change?

Heroic was always my pinnacle

So that contradicts the earlier claim of not wanting the best gear. Because you can pretty easily reach the item level of normal raids with out ever stepping foot in them. Excluding timewalking raids since their difficulty varies and a "time walking set" can impact performance. Capping item level at 200 for all battlegrounds wouldn't be a fix. It also stops any type of progression for PvP. Weird how your solution is to get rid of the very thing you've been saying you want. Progression.

Your experiences last expansion may have been because your skill level was low so the gear difference seemed larger then it really should have been. Given all you say goes into Heroic raiding, your pinnacle, and how you tried all these different things to get others to read logs for you, it seems that is likely the case. Only idiots yell at others for taking up a slot in random battlegrounds. And even if they did you just ignore them because idiots will be idiots.

You don't get credit for stuff in random battlegrounds because you know it is random people from across the battlegroup/region. No one is reading real time logs or calling out every single thing you do. But stuns, utility, and whatever else can help. It can stop a flag from being captured. It can by time to zerg the healer etc. You keep making excuses.

The community hasn't become extremely harsh. You haven't been driven out by anyone but yourself. For weeks now you keep you bringing up requirements for raiding that don't even exist or are not that extreme of things to do. You have just started to change and move on from a hobby. Nothing wrong with that. You can enjoy the world. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. The problem is you don't want to enjoy the world but you want to enjoy your specific thing with your specific reward otherwise the game is toxic, poorly designed, and it must be the fault of the developers.

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Do yourself a favor and quit, some people are simply unable to understand why ship is sinking and their Stockholm syndrome is kicking in.

Oh the "classic is better" argument with "people who don't see it as I do have a mental problem" argument. It is simply that people like different things and just because a person doesn't like something doesn't mean it is bad design or not a choice an their end. The opposite is true of course. Just because something is liked doesn't mean it is good design and couldn't be tweaked or changed.

[kaminaris]

Oh the "classic is better" argument with "people who don't see it as I do have a mental problem" argument. It is simply that people like different things and just because a person doesn't like something doesn't mean it is bad design or not a choice an their end. The opposite is true of course. Just because something is liked doesn't mean it is good design and couldn't be tweaked or changed.

Classic isn't better, Wotlk is better. But you are sure the type of apologist i was talking about.

[rhorle]

Classic isn't better, Wotlk is better. But you are sure the type of apologist i was talking about.

I don't have stockholme syndrome though so it is impossible for me to be who you are talking about. The amusing thing is you are the one alleging abuse or mistreatment by Blizzard yet are still here discussing and willing to pay for their products still. That closer to Stockholm syndrome then anything I've displayed. Weird right?

When I no longer enjoy WoW I stop playing. Most of 8.3 I stopped playing because I didn't really enjoy it once I finished some of the basic stuff. Depending on how the content droughts go this expansion I might stop paying all together. Or at least switch to a monthly payment scheme. Though I have until June/July due to tokens and game time gifts from holidays.

But it is much easier to insult and put people into cages of hate rather then accept that others view things differently then you. Right? WotLK is classic. Classic refers to the re-releases which you are saying one of them is better. Hence why We have Burning Crusade Classic.