If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Fantazma]

Dude you must be either dellusional or new to the Warcraft franchise. Sylvanas is not even nearly is popular and iconic as Illidan and Arthas, this one sentence just made it so 0 people on this forum can take your entire post seriously.

Making a dark ranger argument is fine, feel free, but this one statement is like complete 10/10 bullshit lol.

Okay, of course I didn't take those images from Nature, Time or Science magazine ... but the internet is full of similar graphics where Sylvanas is much stronger than Arthas and Illidan (who have had playable class in the game for years. .)
Also, in 2019 and 2020 Sylvanas was the most searched word from World of Warcraft on google.

Posting this just so that posts like yours invalidate posts ... like mine.

p.s: Ah, in the future avoid taking a single sentence from someone's text to make the entire text unfeasible. The name of this is "scarecrow fallacy" ... and it is quite dishonest.

[Syegfryed]

You're too worried to go on a 'gotcha' here that you're completely forgetting the original context of the conversation about movement mobility. The entire time we were talking about having movement speed that would be designed to get the warrior OUT of combat, of which he has none.

Like i said, it is better to admit you didn't play warrior, so you don't know much what you are talking about and just drop this one, you can salvage this, you said potatoes, warriors have mobility, end.

Warriors cannot "leap away and heal" since they don't have any ability to heal that doesn't involve staying in the middle of combat and hitting mobs.

Ah yes, the warrior player everyone, saying warriors cannot leap away and heal, when they have this:

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=29838/second-wind

Second Wind
Level 60 Arms warrior talent
Passive
Restores 6% health every 1 sec when you have not taken damage for 5 sec.

Can you please elaborate how this is "staying in the middle of combat and hitting mobs"? ~~warrior player~~

And again: heroic leap is not designed as an "escape" ability. The fact it has a damage component is evidence of that.

That is just hilarious, and since wind walk have a damage bonus component is a evidence of the ability not being designed as an "escape"

It is so funny when you refute yourself without knowing.

Hell, even its name, Heroic Leap, is evidence of that: there is nothing "heroic" in running away.

And there is nothing in wind walk that is evidence of a stealth, even the description say you just appear to be invisible, there is nothing stealth in being fast

I have. Which is why I'm telling you this: they're about stealth and deceit.

Another evidence of why warriors and blademasters are the same class, you know nothing about both.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

those images are disturbing

[Ielenia]

Like i said, it is better to admit you didn't play warrior, so you don't know much what you are talking about and just drop this one, you can salvage this, you said potatoes, warriors have mobility, end.

None of their mobility is about getting them out of combat. Which was the entire point of the conversation about mobility.

Ah yes, the warrior player everyone, saying warriors cannot leap away and heal, when they have this:

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=29838/second-wind

Can you please elaborate how this is "staying in the middle of combat and hitting mobs"? ~~warrior player~~

And how does that counter the fact the class' main healing ability requires an enemy target to be used? How its main mobility is to get INTO battle? Its secondary mobility has a damage component meaning it's to get some snap aggro. Its defensives are not about dodge. Its main stat is strength, which also is a heavy departure from the blademaster's agility.

That is just hilarious, and since wind walk have a damage bonus component is a evidence of the ability not being designed as an "escape"

Not the same thing. Wind Walk itself deals no damage. It only gives you bonus damage if you wish to attack from the shadows. Heroic Leap always does damage on the landing area.

And there is nothing in wind walk that is evidence of a stealth, even the description say you just appear to be invisible, there is nothing stealth in being fast

Other than the fact the blademaster becomes invisible, completely unseen? On top of that, their lore description also mention they're masters of stealth.

Another evidence of why warriors and blademasters are the same class, you know nothing about both.

Really? You're saying that the warrior class is about stealth and deceit?

[Syegfryed]

None of their mobility is about getting them out of combat. Which was the entire point of the conversation about mobility.

Heroic leap is literally a mobility skill to get then out of combat, rly, is getting embarrassing for yourself

And how does that counter the fact the class' main healing ability requires an enemy target to be used?

You literally said the don't have any healing ability to heal who does not involve staying in the middle of combat and hitting mobs., you were wrong, cause you didn't play warriors, if you did, you would know they have second wind

Not the same thing. Wind Walk itself deals no damage. It only gives you bonus damage if you wish to attack from the shadows. Heroic Leap always does damage on the landing area.

heroic leap damage in the landing area just like wind walk does damage when getting out of it, same purpose, gong into combat and dealing extra-damage and also escaping to heal with potions, with second wind or with alies, stop nittpicking, just admit you don't know this subject and we can be done

[Ielenia]

Heroic leap is literally a mobility skill to get then out of combat, rly, is getting embarrassing for yourself

It's not what it was designed for. Everything about it says it's not an escape ability. Damage, the name, etc. What you're doing here is saying that Netherwalk is not a defensive cooldown, but a movement buff ablity.

You literally said the don't have any healing ability to heal who does not involve staying in the middle of combat and hitting mobs., you were wrong, cause you didn't play warriors, if you did, you would know they have second wind

Yes. An ability they can use, like holy light, or healing wave, something to actively heal themselves, and not just get natural healing going. The one healing ability they have requires an enemy target. You talk about me "embarrassing myself", but you're the one in that position, unfortunately, as you're trying to equate a playable class in which its toolkit revolves staying in direct combat, to a class concept that revolves stealth and deceit.

heroic leap damage in the landing area just like wind walk does damage when getting out of it,

Not really. One deals damage every single time, regardless if you want it or not. The other, only if you actively perform an attack.

[draugril]

Okay, of course I didn't take those images from Nature, Time or Science magazine ... but the internet is full of similar graphics where Sylvanas is much stronger than Arthas and Illidan (who have had playable class in the game for years. .)
Also, in 2019 and 2020 Sylvanas was the most searched word from World of Warcraft on google.

Posting this just so that posts like yours invalidate posts ... like mine.

p.s: Ah, in the future avoid taking a single sentence from someone's text to make the entire text unfeasible. The name of this is "scarecrow fallacy" ... and it is quite dishonest.

In fan faction. The opinions of the rabidly obsessed rarely reflect those of the general population.

[username993720]

But somehow venthyr represent drinking blood without actually drinking blood?

Drinking red anima is the most obvious reference to that.

I never, ever claimed the runemaster was "near completion". You were the one who made a similar claim, when you claimed that "Blizzard abandon projects mid-way" and then mentioned the "Pandaren almost became an Alliance race in TBC".

"Front runner" & "almost made the cut" sounds like you implied they had a, pretty, good notion of it.

And you have yet to give a good reason for the separation between expansion classes and vanilla classes.

Because one has a clear pattern and the other don't?

Venthyr are venthyr. Just like Kyrian are Kyrian, and Sylvar are Sylvar.

*facepalm*

You've gotta be, really, "fingers in your ear, don't wanna hear it" guy, if you claim that they are not vampires, fauns and angels. Heck, Sylvar were called fauns before they got the name Sylvar.

Yes, hey are "anything but vampires". And I've laid out my reasons already: because they don't drink blood; their existence isn't due to a blood curse; they do not spread their curse through biting others.

Are Tauren not Minotaurs because they stray from the traditional depiction?

But the san'layn and venthyr somehow are?

*Sigh*

Different iterations.

And at which point, after how many changes, does it stop being what they are referencing? Venthyr don't suck blood and their existence isn't a blood curse. In my eyes, they're not vampires. They look like vampires and reference the vampire mythos in their design, but they're not actual vampires in my eyes.

Then, it is settled. It is in your eyes. Not everything in Warcraft has to be 100% copy. Trolls in folklore were never jamaican, for example.
Everyone with ears and eyes can see that the Venthyr are based on vampires. The fact that you can't define them otherwise shows it. Heck, even the Dreadlords, which were vampiric demons, who were quite off from the traditional vampire turned out to be part of Revendreth. Warcraft has different iterations of the vampire archetype.

There is no "archangel/dark archangel divide" in Bastion... because kyrians aren't angels.

Are you kidding me? please tell me you are kidding me.
Kyrians aren't angels? There's no divide between Kyrian (Archangel) and Forsworn (Dark Archangel)?
You're down to Sygfreyd's level if you make those wild claims about the Shadowlands races.

I would argue that in each case they are more inspired by the source material. I wouldn't say that Venthyr are Vampires since, well, they differ from Vampires in a lot of ways, but they are quite obviously inspired by Vampire lore and gothic Vampire aesthetic. That being said, if somebody were interested in playing a Vampirelike character, they would certainly be something that could fit that bill were they playable.

I'd toss it in a similar group as Odyn, Tyr, Loken, Helya and that group that are very clearly inspired by Norse mythology, but aren't actually those beings from the stories.

Of course they aren't. But, they don't have to be. Claiming Helya, Odyn, Thorim and Loken aren't based on Hela, Odin, Thor and Loki is absurd. They are meant to represent those characters, with a slight deviation.
And again, claiming Venthyr, Kyrian and Sylvar are not Angels, Vampire and Fauns - based is such a wild claim. They just differ from the source material, because not everything in game has to be a carbon copy of the mythos.

That is just hilarious, and since wind walk have a damage bonus component is a evidence of the ability not being designed as an "escape"

It is so funny when you refute yourself without knowing.

I, already, showed you how a Rogue's Stealth has/had damage bonus talents, as well.

And there is nothing in wind walk that is evidence of a stealth, even the description say you just appear to be invisible, there is nothing stealth in being fast

There is. Both in description (turns you invisible), animation (becoming transparent) and lore (you appear to be invisible) in both WC3 and HotS. Only a madman would ignore these.

Heroic leap is literally a mobility skill to get then out of combat, rly, is getting embarrassing for yourself

Heroic Leap is not Wind Walk, my friend.
It is a Barbarian/Mountain King ability to AOE damage a group clustered together.

You literally said the don't have any healing ability to heal who does not involve staying in the middle of combat and hitting mobs., you were wrong, cause you didn't play warriors, if you did, you would know they have second wind

Second Wind is not a Blademaster ability. It belongs to Muradin and Varian in HotS.

heroic leap damage in the landing area just like wind walk does damage when getting out of it, same purpose, gong into combat and dealing extra-damage and also escaping to heal with potions, with second wind or with alies, stop nittpicking, just admit you don't know this subject and we can be done

Your conclusion making is astonishing. Heroic Leap resembles a Demon Hunter's demonic leap more than it does Wind Walk. Wind Walk resembles a stealth with a damage bonus talent.

[Syegfryed]

Heroic Leap is not Wind Walk, my friend.
It is a Barbarian/Mountain King ability to AOE damage a group clustered together.

I already stop responding you, why you keep going making up stuff? i don't want to ignore, so please refrain yourself a bit in making up things, i never said heroic leap is wind walk and mountain king are not barbarians.

Second Wind is not a Blademaster ability. It belongs to Muradin and Varian in HotS.

It is a warrior skill and i give two shits about hots, this is not the point, so don't jump in the conversation when you don't know what is being talking about, one people doing that is enough.

Your conclusion making is astonishing. Heroic Leap resembles a Demon Hunter's demonic leap more than it does Wind Walk. Wind Walk resembles a stealth with a damage bonus talent.

No it does not, stealth have no time or CD, wind walk wears off, of course a jump resemble a jump great observation, let me guess a heal resembles another heal too?

- - - Updated - - -

It's not what it was designed for. Everything about it says it's not an escape ability. Damage, the name, etc. .

Really? you want to be show wrong again?

[Heroic Leap] allows the warrior to leap down upon their enemies or if necessary to flee quickly out of range of attacks, and additionally deals some AoE damage.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior#Arms

Heroic Leap Icon Heroic Leap has great pursuit potential but can be equally powerful when trying to survive. Breaking the line of sight of enemies will nullify most of their damage, and is a great way to prevent being killed by unstoppable cooldowns like Combustion Icon Combustion.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...-and-playstyle

If you try to say "it does not count because is PVP">>>

Save Heroic Leap to quickly get out of Reverberating Eruption.

Use Heroic Leap to position yourself behind a pillar quickly before the boss charges with Hateful Gaze Icon Hateful Gaze.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...ria-raid-guide

To think they would design an ability to jump around, with no restrictions of combat and not think it would not be able to flee, is just dumbfolding how you are saying those nonsenses with a straight face to salvage this argument, is literally double standart to not admit is similar to how wind walk is both an engage and a escape, both ability providing mobility.

What you're doing here is saying that Netherwalk is not a defensive cooldown, but a movement buff ablity.

What you're doing here is saying that Windwalk is not a mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage, but a stealth ability

ah yes, just chef's kiss the dobule standarts is just subleme

Yes. An ability they can use, like holy light, or healing wave, something to actively heal themselves, and not just get natural healing going. The one healing ability they have requires an enemy target. You talk about me "embarrassing myself", but you're the one in that position, unfortunately, as you're trying to equate a playable class in which its toolkit revolves staying in direct combat, to a class concept that revolves stealth and deceit.

HAHAHA oh my god, " "when i literally said they don't have any heals i didn't mean they didn't have any heals, what i REALLY meant is they didn't heal themselves with holy light, besides never saying that", no you keep embarrassing yourself, Yet you still don't admit you were wrong despite being showed the ability who literally does not require an enemy target because second wind fully heal thens up,

Hear me out, you are nittpicking so hard on this, that you are just highlighting how they are the same class, Blademasters also can't heal themselves without help, just like warrior who didn't get second wind as talent, blademasters get away with wind walk to heal with potions or the witch doctor help, you know other heroes, just like the warrior can leap away use potions or get an ally to heal him, then both can go back to the combat, same playstyle, but of course, if someone never played(or played and have zero clues still) warrior or orcs in the RTS its hard to know that.

And to think, you wanted to get by the tanged by trying to keep repeating the same false argument of "blademasters concept revolves around stealth and deceit when it was showed time to time again their concept is a mobile and cunning warrior master of the blades that is a master in the battlefield.

Not really. One deals damage every single time, regardless if you want it or not. The other, only if you actively perform an attack.

not really, heroic leap only does damage if you activelly perform a leap on someone

[username993720]

I already stop responding you, why you keep going making up stuff? i don't want to ignore, so please refrain yourself a bit in making up things, i never said heroic leap is wind walk and mountain king are not barbarians.

Because you keep claiming the same things, just with different people. I told you i feel obliged to respond to those claims. Yet, if you don't want me to, then i'll stop. Mountain Kings are sort of nordic/scottish barbarians. Can't you see the similarities?

It is a warrior skill and i give two shits about hots, this is not the point, so don't jump in the conversation when you don't know what is being talking about, one people doing that is enough.

Because you associate the wrong skills with the Blademaster.

No it does not, stealth have no time or CD, wind walk wears off, of course a jump resemble a jump great observation, let me guess a heal resembles another heal too?

You've got a point. Yet, both are based on a 'surprise attack'.

If you do not wish for people to jump into the conversation, refrain from making wild, personal claims.

[Diaphin]

Yes except the fact that Arthas/Lich King/ Illidan are astronomically more recognisable and popular than the 3rd most popular characters onwards. Just because Sylvanas/Jaina/Thrall are extremely well known and popular dosent make them comparable, because they are not. If you dont agree then thats your choice, but you're either lying to yourself to support your desires or you just dont know much about the game, sorry.

They're just on another tier, and its probably only them on it.

Also, im by no means a supporter of Tinker, but the fact you're saying things like.

Actually, Sylvanas has a bigger presence online than Arthas or Illidan. At least when you google search Sylvanas it has more results than Arthas or Illidan. The difference grows when you google them with their last names. Lich King has the most results by a long shot, but that name can refer to three different characters and is part of the name of an expansion.

Sorry but Tinker is the most popular class concept ive seen. I dont even understand why people want a dark ranger, its just a fucking undead banshee hunter, thats it. Its probably interesting enough to make a new hunter spec, but not a new class.

It is popular on an inofficial forum with a small sample size of participants where people can do creat as many accounts as possible. The question is still whether or not people would play a tinker class and if we look at the last known population numbers of gnomes and goblins, it seems unlikely, especially if we compare them too blood elves and night elves.

[jellmoo]

Of course they aren't. But, they don't have to be. Claiming Helya, Odyn, Thorim and Loken aren't based on Hela, Odin, Thor and Loki is absurd. They are meant to represent those characters, with a slight deviation.
And again, claiming Venthyr, Kyrian and Sylvar are not Angels, Vampire and Fauns - based is such a wild claim. They just differ from the source material, because not everything in game has to be a carbon copy of the mythos.

I think Warcraft has a long history of doing *wink wink nudge nudge* with a lot of their homages to other materials, making them more of a parody than anything else. With the Venthyr (and other denizens of the Shadowlands) they did something a little different and went more towards the route of inspiration and doing something more with a straight face.

When it comes to playability, yeah, a lot would have to change in order to really make it viable. The thing is, Blizzard loves to do just that, make large extremely convenient changes that allow for these things.

But if they become playable and somebody were to ask me: "Hey Jellmoo, is there a race of Vampires in WoW I can play?"

I'd have to say: "Nah fam." *wink wink nudge nudge* "No vampires here."

[Ielenia]

Really? you want to be show wrong again?

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior#Arms

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...-and-playstyle

If you try to say "it does not count because is PVP">>>

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-w...ria-raid-guide

To think they would design an ability to jump around, with no restrictions of combat and not think it would not be able to flee, is just dumbfolding how you are saying those nonsenses with a straight face to salvage this argument, is literally double standart to not admit is similar to how wind walk is both an engage and a escape, both ability providing mobility.

So you're taking the opinions of players and using them as if they're confirmation of your opinion regarding Blizzard's intent on developing the Heroic Leap ability? Just look at the whole theme of the warrior, the whole theme of the warrior's ability kit, the ability naming theme, etc. The warrior class is about getting into combat and staying in combat.

What you're doing here is saying that Windwalk is not a mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage, but a stealth ability

It's not a "mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage" because the Wind Walk ability itself does not deal damage.

HAHAHA oh my god, " "when i literally said they don't have any heals i didn't mean they didn't have any heals, what i REALLY meant is they didn't heal themselves with holy light, besides never saying that", no you keep embarrassing yourself, Yet you still don't admit you were wrong despite being showed the ability who literally does not require an enemy target because second wind fully heal thens up,

It's a small boost to natural healing. Every character has natural healing. Not to mention, whereas a class with an actual healing ability can recover 15-30% of their health in two seconds, the warrior needs to first exit combat, and then wait six seconds, to get 6% of their health back. Face it: the warrior's main healing ability requires him to be in the middle of the fray, killing enemies. The warrior class is designed to stay in combat, not avoid it.

And to think, you wanted to get by the tanged by trying to keep repeating the same false argument of "blademasters concept revolves around stealth and deceit

Dude. It's downright amazing how dishonest you're being here considering you were the one who made that original quote about blademasters being masters of stealth and deceit:

they literally still said "Though blademasters are masters of stealth and guile,they value personal honor above all else.

not really, heroic leap only does damage if you activelly perform a leap on someone

It always deals damage, regardless if there is a target to take the damage or not. "Nearby targets" is not a conditional. You can't "heroic leap" next to a mob and not deal damage. But you can Wind Walk next to a mob and not deal any damage to it.

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Drinking red anima is the most obvious reference to that.

But vengeance demon hunter having wings when they glide is somehow not a reference to Illidan?

"Front runner" & "almost made the cut" sounds like you implied they had a, pretty, good notion of it.

No, it doesn't. It means exactly what it means: that the runemaster concept was one of the top three choices to become the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's class choice. Just like Blizzard said it happened.

Because one has a clear pattern and the other don't?

That's not a good reason. This is a case of "counting the hits and ignoring the misses". You're literally admitting that you're dismissing the vanilla classes because they don't fit this perceived "pattern" you subjectively observed.

*facepalm*

You've gotta be, really, "fingers in your ear, don't wanna hear it" guy, if you claim that they are not vampires,

I've already laid out the reasons why I don't think the venthyr are vampires. But I'll repeat them: the venthyr don't drink blood, the venthyr's existence is not a blood curse, and the venthyr do not "reproduce" (i.e. spread their curse) by biting people. While vampires do all that. And those vampires exist in Warcraft: they're called the san'layn.

Are Tauren not Minotaurs because they stray from the traditional depiction?

Considering the popular mythos of the "minotaur" is of the body of a human and the head of an ox, not full-blown anthropomorphic oxen like the tauren, I would say, yes, the tauren are not minotaurs.

*Sigh*

Different iterations.

Where only one of them is an actual vampire.

Then, it is settled. It is in your eyes.

Just to remind you: your own eyes are not objective, either. Everything you're writing here, it's also just your opinion.

Trolls in folklore were never jamaican, for example.

And I never claimed they are. So what?

Everyone with ears and eyes can see that the Venthyr are based on vampires.

And I never disagreed on that. I only said that venthyr themselves are not vampires.

The fact that you can't define them otherwise shows it.

I don't have to define them as "something else" to show that they're not vampires. For example, I don't have to know what language the word "saudade" comes from to know it's not part of the english language.

Kyrians aren't angels? There's no divide between Kyrian (Archangel) and Forsworn (Dark Archangel)?

I never said that. I said there are no "archangel/dark archangel divide" because they're not angels or dark angels. I never said there is no kyrian/forsworn divide. Again: just because they seem to represent a certain concept, does not mean they are said concept they're referencing.

[username993720]

I think Warcraft has a long history of doing *wink wink nudge nudge* with a lot of their homages to other materials, making them more of a parody than anything else.

There's nothing parodic about WoW races. They took mythological creatures and applied real-world cultures to them.

But vengeance demon hunter having wings when they glide is somehow not a reference to Illidan?

It's not, necessarily, vengeance related. It is a general ability.

No, it doesn't. It means exactly what it means: that the runemaster concept was one of the top three choices to become the Wrath of the Lich King expansion's class choice. Just like Blizzard said it happened.

And when they realized it wasn't, they ditched it to be part of the Death Knight. For all we know, the whole thing might have been a 20 minute meeting.

That's not a good reason. This is a case of "counting the hits and ignoring the misses". You're literally admitting that you're dismissing the vanilla classes because they don't fit this perceived "pattern" you subjectively observed.

No, because i'm analyzing expansion classes. Quite specific.

I've already laid out the reasons why I don't think the venthyr are vampires. But I'll repeat them: the venthyr don't drink blood, the venthyr's existence is not a blood curse, and the venthyr do not "reproduce" (i.e. spread their curse) by biting people. While vampires do all that. And those vampires exist in Warcraft: they're called the san'layn.

Have you considered the fact that WoW had to compete with the Skyrim vampire expansion?


Doing the same as they did would not have been beneficial for their revenues.
Just like they didn't repeat Diablo's angels and demons, or Starcraft's Protoss.

Considering the popular mythos of the "minotaur" is of the body of a human and the head of an ox, not full-blown anthropomorphic oxen like the tauren, I would say, yes, the tauren are not minotaurs.

They're just minotaurs with a native american culture. They even received human fingers with their updated model.

Where only one of them is an actual vampire.

Sure thing, buddy.
Are trolls in-game not trolls because they don't behave like folklore trolls?

And I never claimed they are. So what?

So, they're not trolls, according to your logic.

And I never disagreed on that. I only said that venthyr themselves are not vampires.

-_-

That's being a little bit petty.

I don't have to define them as "something else" to show that they're not vampires. For example, I don't have to know what language the word "saudade" comes from to know it's not part of the english language.

It would help your argument, though.

I never said that. I said there are no "archangel/dark archangel divide" because they're not angels or dark angels. I never said there is no kyrian/forsworn divide. Again: just because they seem to represent a certain concept, does not mean they are said concept they're referencing.

They are. Just with a Greek culture.

[jellmoo]

There's nothing parodic about WoW races. They took mythological creatures and applied real-world cultures to them.

Ooooo, I don't know about that. I wasn't talking specifically about races, but I do think they parody a ton with the races they put in. Whether it be Tauren and all the jokes about getting high, Pandaren's entire story, or the Goblin aesthetic (especially in Kezan) they have put quite a bit of parody and satire in the races they've implemented this far.

[username993720]

Ooooo, I don't know about that. I wasn't talking specifically about races, but I do think they parody a ton with the races they put in. Whether it be Tauren and all the jokes about getting high, Pandaren's entire story, or the Goblin aesthetic (especially in Kezan) they have put quite a bit of parody and satire in the races they've implemented this far.

If you view it that way.
I see them as very seriously depicted.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of humor. Doesn't mean they're a joke, though.
Unlike certain depictions in HotS or Hearthstone.

[Ielenia]

It's not, necessarily, vengeance related. It is a general ability.

Perhaps because the whole class, itself, was based off on Illidan's concept?

And when they realized it wasn't, they ditched it to be part of the Death Knight. For all we know, the whole thing might have been a 20 minute meeting.

Maybe. It may have taken only two minutes to decide which class to put in. Or an hour. Or an entire day's worth of discussion. Because we don't know what was the disqualifying factors were.

No, because i'm analyzing expansion classes. Quite specific.

But why exclude the vanilla classes? If you want to exclude the vanilla classes, fine, but you have to give a reason as to why those examples don't matter. Otherwise it feels you're excluding them solely because they don't fit your narrative, here.

Have you considered the fact that WoW had to compete with the Skyrim vampire expansion?

No, I haven't, because I don't have to. You're literally going the conspiracy theory route if your argument now is "WoW had to compete with Skyrim".

They're just minotaurs with a native american culture. They even received human fingers with their updated model.

The only connection to minotaurs is that they're oxen/cows. They have nothing else minotaur-like from the popular mythos.

Sure thing, buddy.

Venthyr only have one characteristic that is vampire-like: the weakness to light. They have nothing else. San'layn, on the other hand, have all the other characteristics of vampires. And their previous queen, Blood-QueenLana'thel, could actually make more vampires with her bite.

Are trolls in-game not trolls because they don't behave like folklore trolls?

Whataboutism, here?

So, they're not trolls, according to your logic.

You are being very dishonest here, considering that was not my answer. Also, this isn't a dichotomy. If I have not made a claim that trolls are jamaican, that doesn't mean I'm claiming that trolls are not jamaican.

-_-

That's being a little bit petty.

No. You accused me of claiming that venthyr are not based on vampires. Which is false. That is a claim I never made. I just said that venthyr are not vampires, not that they're not based on vampires. Completely different claims.

It would help your argument, though.

Not really. I don't need to know every single language in the entire world to know if a word does not belong to a language I know. I don't need to know which country the name "Lisboa" comes from to know it's not name of the capital of any of the US states.

They are. Just with a Greek culture.

In your opinion, though. That doesn't make it a fact, just hope you're aware of that.

[jellmoo]

If you view it that way.
I see them as very seriously depicted.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of humor. Doesn't mean they're a joke, though.
Unlike certain depictions in HotS or Hearthstone.

I think it's an interesting discussion, but to be honest a debate about the origins and level of seriousness on display for WoW races feels pretty off topic for a thread about potential new classes.

So... Um... Venthyr Necromancers?

[Syegfryed]

Because you keep claiming the same things, just with different people. I told you i feel obliged to respond to those claims. Yet, if you don't want me to, then i'll stop.

i never made the claim they are the same thing, that is making shit up

Mountain Kings are sort of nordic/scottish barbarians. Can't you see the similarities?

Barbarians in media are unarmored fighters wielding 2h weapons, Garrosh is more barbarian than a dwarf, did you never watched Conan the barbarian? rofl

You've got a point. Yet, both are based on a 'surprise attack'.

If you do not wish for people to jump into the conversation, refrain from making wild, personal claims.

you literally made that shit up, i never said they are the same thing, how is me "making wild and personal claims" are you high?

- - - Updated - - -

So you're taking the opinions of players and using them as if they're confirmation of your opinion regarding Blizzard's intent on developing the Heroic Leap ability? Just look at the whole theme of the warrior, the whole theme of the warrior's ability kit, the ability naming theme, etc. The warrior class is about getting into combat and staying in combat.

unless you can PROOVE that "blizzard intend and design" you are just making things up, again, and this is, pure double standarts coming from someone so adamant to say people should not take their opinion as fact, this is literally you, taking your opinion, personal and biased one, as fact, if an ability let then jump, they can jump for any reasons, including to flee, there is literally, nothing say it was not designed for it, otherwise the ability would be indisponible while in combat or when you have low hp

Another double standart is trying to talk how the ability is "named" when wind walk is not called "invisible walk" or "stealth walk", you don't know warriors and don't know blademasters, simple as that.

It's not a "mobility engage ability that deal bonus damage" because the Wind Walk ability itself does not deal damage.

It is literally an ability to increase your speed, engage an opponent and deal bonus damage before it wears off, stop pretending, if you are telling me, with a straight face the ability is designed pure for the invisibility, i will not be able to keep a straight face

It's a small boost to natural healing. Every character has natural healing. Not to mention, whereas a class with an actual healing ability can recover 15-30% of their health in two seconds, the warrior needs to first exit combat, and then wait six seconds, to get 6% of their health back. Face it: the warrior's main healing ability requires him to be in the middle of the fray, killing enemies. The warrior class is designed to stay in combat, not avoid it.

in your opinion, of course

and this is just a malabarism trying to hide the fact that you thought the only healing thing warriors had was victory rush, let me guess, you played an alt in WoD and think you know better than anyone else.

Dude. It's downright amazing how dishonest you're being here considering you were the one who made that original quote about blademasters being masters of stealth and deceit:

I am dishonest? considering its you who are literally ignoring 90% the rest of the blademasters quotes, lore and abilities to focus on this one and even distort things when the quote say guile and not deceit?

It always deals damage, regardless if there is a target to take the damage or not. "Nearby targets" is not a conditional. You can't "heroic leap" next to a mob and not deal damage. But you can Wind Walk next to a mob and not deal any damage to it.

if you leap next to no one, it does no deal damage, just like if you chose not attack while in wind walk, you are literally grasping at straws

[Ielenia]

unless you can PROOVE that "blizzard intend and design" you are just making things up, again,

Oh, so you can freely engage in the "absolutist fallacy" and it's all fine and dandy, but then when you accuse me of such, it's somehow a bad thing? Sounds like double standards~♫

Also, I do recall a conversation of ours where you died on the hill that the Kul'Tiran allied race was entirely developed during a single X.X.5 patch, and not that Blizzard has been doing it throughout all of BfA, like the developer interviews and datamining have shown. So your opinion = fact, and other people's facts = opinion?

Another double standart is trying to talk how the ability is "named" when wind walk is not called "invisible walk" or "stealth walk",

It's not double-standard. Instead, you're doing a false equivalence, because none of us are making an argument about "wind walk" being about invisibility because of its name.

you don't know warriors

I do.

and don't know blademasters,

I do. You don't.

simple as that.

If it was "simple as that", you'd have learned that stating your opinions as fact is wrong. But it's not that simple, is it? You refuse to admit that you're wrong in that regard.

It is literally an ability to increase your speed, engage an opponent and deal bonus damage before it wears off, stop pretending,

If that was the intention of the ability, it would function like the warrior's charge, only giving you extra damage for the next attack instead of rooting the target. But it doesn't. Instead, it makes you invisible.

if you are telling me, with a straight face the ability is designed pure for the invisibility, i will not be able to keep a straight face

I doubt you've kept a straight face for our entire conversation, but that's neither here nor there.

in your opinion, of course

And this somehow debunks my argument... how? Oh, because my opinion is "just an opinion", while your opinion is fact? Is that it?

I am dishonest? considering its you who are literally ignoring 90% the rest of the blademasters quotes, lore and abilities to focus on this one and even distort things when the quote say guile and not deceit?

Once again, for the people in the back~♫

"Guile is the quality of being good at deceiving people in a clever way."
"​the use of clever but dishonest behaviour in order to trick people"
"clever but sometimes dishonest behaviour that you use to deceive someone"
"insidious cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deception; duplicity."

if you leap next to no one, it does no deal damage, just like if you chose not attack while in wind walk, you are literally grasping at straws

If you heroic leap and land next to a mob, you'll deal damage, regardless if you have it targeted or not. Wind Walk will never deal damage to anyone, regardless if you have them targeted or not. What will deal damage is whatever OTHER attack that you do against the enemy. Wind Walk will only increase its damage.

[username993720]

Perhaps because the whole class, itself, was based off on Illidan's concept?

Yes, he was the premise. Mainly, for the Havoc Demon Hunter. Saying Vengeance is unoriginal is like saying Mistweaver and Windwalker aren't because they can use brews.

Maybe. It may have taken only two minutes to decide which class to put in. Or an hour. Or an entire day's worth of discussion. Because we don't know what was the disqualifying factors were.

Familiarity, most likely.
And less canon sources to rely on.

But why exclude the vanilla classes? If you want to exclude the vanilla classes, fine, but you have to give a reason as to why those examples don't matter. Otherwise it feels you're excluding them solely because they don't fit your narrative, here.

Why? because they're not part of an expansion. That's like examining the addition of races, and including the base ones.

No, I haven't, because I don't have to. You're literally going the conspiracy theory route if your argument now is "WoW had to compete with Skyrim".

There's no conspiracy in that. If you're oblivious to the fact that gaming companies compete with each other on a daily basis, that's on you. Why do you think they synchronize patches (+week or two) with other games' content? Heck, Shadowlands and FFXIV's Shadowbringers were compared all the time. You, really, think releasing identical content would grant them more subscribers?

The only connection to minotaurs is that they're oxen/cows. They have nothing else minotaur-like from the popular mythos.

Exactly. Part humanoid, part bovine.
They took the mythological creature and gave it a real-life culture (native american).

Venthyr only have one characteristic that is vampire-like: the weakness to light. They have nothing else. San'layn, on the other hand, have all the other characteristics of vampires. And their previous queen, Blood-QueenLana'thel, could actually make more vampires with her bite.

Do you think Vampires were depicted in mythos as former elves?
Of course they weren't. That's called creative directing.

Whataboutism, here?

-_-

If those are the criterias for your vampire, then they should be the criterias for the other races. Don't try to wiggle out of it.

You are being very dishonest here, considering that was not my answer. Also, this isn't a dichotomy. If I have not made a claim that trolls are jamaican, that doesn't mean I'm claiming that trolls are not jamaican.

It means that you claim WoW trolls aren't real trolls.

No. You accused me of claiming that venthyr are not based on vampires. Which is false. That is a claim I never made. I just said that venthyr are not vampires, not that they're not based on vampires. Completely different claims.

Based on vampires, and vampires alone, makes them vampires. Just a different iteration. Not everything has to be true to the source material.

Not really. I don't need to know every single language in the entire world to know if a word does not belong to a language I know. I don't need to know which country the name "Lisboa" comes from to know it's not name of the capital of any of the US states.

"I don't need to see the earth from the outside to know that is is flat". -flat earthers.

In your opinion, though. That doesn't make it a fact, just hope you're aware of that.

*Sigh*

So, nothing is the way it seems?

I think it's an interesting discussion, but to be honest a debate about the origins and level of seriousness on display for WoW races feels pretty off topic for a thread about potential new classes.

So... Um... Venthyr Necromancers?

Blood Death Knights.

i never made the claim they are the same thing, that is making shit up

Again. Language barrier. I wrote "claiming the same things" (meaning, using the same arguments). You interpreted it as "claiming they are the same things".

Barbarians in media are unarmored fighters wielding 2h weapons, Garrosh is more barbarian than a dwarf, did you never watched Conan the barbarian? rofl

You're generalizing all Barbarians. I'm talking about nordic/scottish ones.

you literally made that shit up, i never said they are the same thing, how is me "making wild and personal claims" are you high?

Again. Language barrier. How did you get to the "same thing", regarding what i said?
I said you claim the same things with other people.

I'm trying real hard not to reply to your lelenia's comments.
1. Wind Walk doesn't need to be named stealth or invisibility. It comes from being light on your feet that you appear to be walking on wind.
2. You're ignoring the invisibility aspect of it, on purpose, like it's not there. Unlike you, we're not claiming for invisibility only, but that both invisibility and speed are important to the ability.
3. Guile is, also, deceit. Look it up.
4. That is an absurd logic to use for Heroic Leap. If you did something, in real-life, and no one was there to witness it, did it really happen? (that's you logic). The AOE damage is there for a reason (and, also, the angry animation).