9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[Kaver]

That’s only going to solve the problem partially. Ilvl inflation is going to be a problem in pvp regardless of your solution. The only real solution is to flatten this absurd curve and allow the average player to get much much closer to bis, which is why virtually every other major MMO does.

Giving casual players higher ilvl wont help much because they will still lack after in skill and get completely stomped by better players. The lack of skill is already the major reason why they not able to obtain the gear in the first place. But Blizzard can also just scale down ilvl in pvp instances which they already plan to do right.

[Glorious Leader]

That never had anything to do with ilvl. That was in relation to AP farming etc. Again, hardcore players are not to blame for the poor progression path that Blizzard made for casual. Hardcore players are not to blame for ilvl 197 covenant gear that removes all sense of gear progression in dungeons/lfr/normal raiding.

If they offer ANY FORM OF POWER GAIN for casual players it would become "mandatory" for raiders. They complained about the "mandatory" badge farming. The AP was exactly a form of casual friendly player progression that the game desperately needed after wod and it was slowly gutted because of cry baby hardcore cucks who felt forced to min max. Hell they bithced about how mandatory m+ was as well and that got gutted too! anything remotely powerful, anything that could serve remotely as alternative is automatically forced so other people can't have nice things. This expansion its been pvp so guess whats happening to pvp gear next patch... its the most ridiculous and disgustingly obvious favoritism.

[rhorle]

Anyway it is an issue because skill currently doesn't matter in random BGs. Its all about who has the gear. I could be the most hyper skilled player in the world, and my 200 set isn't going to do jack against a 226. Of course most players are not that skilled, so there should be an equalizer in gear. Cap random BGs at 200 ilvl like casual content should be. That would fix things.

Skill does matter in random battlegrounds. You don't even currently play the game to know this so it is weird how you keep trying to speak from a position of Authority. You haven't even played any of Shadowlands. It isn't about the gear. If you were the most hyper skilled person in the world you wouldn't be stuck at 200 item level. And even then you could still make up a lot of the gear gap.

You know the same way world first raiders can clear a raid a with in weeks of release while you, and your group/guild, when you raided struggled to clear Heroic modes. Skill matters more then item level. It wouldn't fix things because you would just look for a new reason to be upset that you get killed easily. That you have no wins. That you can't find guilds. That you can't learn your class rotation and need discords to analyze logs just to know how to play. Skill is the driving factor in everything you post about.

[Tadkins]

Casuals are not being owned simply because they can't get Heroic and Mythic raid level gear easily.

They actually are in any form if PvP content, as there are no brackets and no equalizers to prevent mythic folk from running roughshod over the lower levels.

[Frozenbro]

And why does it happen so quickly? To appease hardcore players who would cry about the grind to reach the content they want to play.

Hardcore players dont need to do that content and they didnt use any of the gear casuals use now, if you are clueless about the game, dont lie, while you were waiting for your covenant and world quest gear to reach 200, hardcore players were doing +14 in sub 200 ilvl, missinformed opinion = trolling

[rhorle]

They actually are in any form if PvP content, as there are no brackets and no equalizers to prevent mythic folk from running roughshod over the lower levels.

But that again is a skill issue. Because if you are a skilled casual player you can progress your gear higher then 200 item level. Weird right?

[Kaver]

If they offer ANY FORM OF POWER GAIN for casual players it would become "mandatory" for raiders.

Not at all. It completely depends on the specific system. What Blizzard need to do is slow down the progression to ilvl 200 gear for casuals just like it was in expansions before Legion. The reason why casuals have no progression is because they are handed ilvl 197 gear a couple of days after the hit lvl 60. The progression from when you hit lvl 60 to when a casual player hits the "progression wall" needs to be much longer. Normal/heroic/mythic dungeons and LFR/normal raiding should be made relevant again. The main problem with the progression for casual players is the covenants gear and honor gear. It's way too fast for a casual player to get to ilvl 200.

[munkeyinorbit]

That's a 33% difference in power. More than enough to get facerolled

It's a skill issue not a gear issue.

[Tadkins]

Skill does matter in random battlegrounds. You don't even currently play the game to know this so it is weird how you keep trying to speak from a position of Authority. You haven't even played any of Shadowlands. It isn't about the gear. If you were the most hyper skilled person in the world you wouldn't be stuck at 200 item level. And even then you could still make up a lot of the gear gap.

You know the same way world first raiders can clear a raid a with in weeks of release while you, and your group/guild, when you raided struggled to clear Heroic modes. Skill matters more then item level. It wouldn't fix things because you would just look for a new reason to be upset that you get killed easily. That you have no wins. That you can't find guilds. That you can't learn your class rotation and need discords to analyze logs just to know how to play. Skill is the driving factor in everything you post about.

So then again, what are you afraid of? If ilvls were equalized or accessible, you'd still crush me due to you believing I'm unskilled, right? What would it matter if we had even gear levels?

[rhorle]

So then again, what are you afraid of? If ilvls were equalized or accessible, you'd still crush me due to you believing in unskilled, right? What would it matter if we had even gear levels?

Why do you keep thinking I am afraid of anything? I don't care if things are equalized. Templates. Scaling. Whatever. I already told you some of the problems inherent to brackets including still having gear gaps. I disagree with you but don't fear anything you say. Lol.

[Kaver]

What would it matter if we had even gear levels?

Natural progression by doing more challenging content. If you remove that then the progression in the game become meaningless.

[Tadkins]

Why do you keep thinking I am afraid of anything? I don't care if things are equalized. Templates. Scaling. Whatever. I already told you some of the problems inherent to brackets including still having gear gaps. I disagree with you but don't fear anything you say. Lol.

You're defending an unfair class system in the game. It suggests you fear that a casual player or supposed bad player like me actually giving you a fair fight.

[NineSpine]

What a weird stupid way to boil everything down. You are suggest that the game gets burned down anways while you keep paying for it. Casuals are not being owned simply because they can't get Heroic and Mythic raid level gear easily. There is no reason why every reward needs to be handed out simply because you log in to the game. Because that is essentially your argument.

That the only way to create good game design and have a thriving game is to hand gear out to casuals simply because they log in and do minimal stuff. If a player doesn't love the game they should find another game to love. That is never a bad thing despite you insisting that it is. If a game can't find enough players to be sustainable then it shuts down or does something to change. It is the way the world works. Yet you somehow call that bad. Why?

Yes, it is bad for a game when that game can’t retail players. I can’t believe I need to explain this.

Every other major game similar to wow allows the average player to target final sets of gear in such a way that they will have valid and valuable things to do throughout the patch cycle.

I’m simply arguing to return to something closer to how wow used to be. You know, when it was successful and wasn’t desperately trying to retain players who all hail two months after the expansion drops?

Remember when wow used to reward reputations and trade skills with very good gear? Now, it’s shit. Remember when people could run heroic dungeons and get tokens to buy gear? Gone. Remember when you could get great pvp gear doing casual pvp? Not anymore.

Wow tool away progression for casual players to strengthen progression for hardcore players, and that was an incredibly dumb design decision that continues to cause serious problems for the game.

[munkeyinorbit]

I find random battlegrounds fun. It's the one thing I found consistently fun throughout every expansion. I used to be able to get decent gear from them too. Now I can't and all I would have to look forward to is getting crushed. Since that essentially means I'm not allowed to play what I find fun, what reason is there to pay a sub?

Name one expansion where you could get normal raid level gear in the first patch without doing group content? It has never been better.

[Frozenbro]

you'd still crush me due to you believing I'm unskilled, right? What would it matter if we had even gear levels?

He doesnt believe it, you have said it yourself xd actual skilled players are already 226 pvp and/or can climb the ladder just fine, but keep believing mythic raiders actually have time to queue for random bgs, its interesting to read.

[Kaver]

You're defending an unfair class system in the game.

He is defending a completely fair system with progression balance between difficulty of content and gear. This has always been in WoW, but it was just blurred by titanforging in Legion/BFA.

[Glorious Leader]

Not at all. .

Yes very much at all because that's exciting whats been happening. Here's a short list of complaints:

Badge forming forced because of gear on vendor (got rid of that)
lfr forced because tier pieces and set bonuses in raids (got rid of that from lfr and then tier all together)
Legion ap grind because weapon progression was very powerful (barely exists in sl)
m+ gives too much gear (gutted that)
PVP gear too good required farming (taken care off next patch)

I'm missing some I'm sure but theirs been a constant complaint about mandatory participation in non raid content from hardcore players and the devs are incredible sensitive to it for some bizarre fucking reason. If the game is casual friendly it will shrink the gear disparity significantly which means that better gear (or power advancement which is what gear is)will be offered to causal players in other content, typically non group or non organized content. Evidently given the history of this game hardcore players can't help themselves so they'll be back crying about being forced. You can't design around this problem nor should you because its something that is best solved by therapy. The hardcores need mental healthcare, not a hand held by the developer.

[NineSpine]

Hardcore players dont need to do that content and they didnt use any of the gear casuals use now, if you are clueless about the game, dont lie, while you were waiting for your covenant and world quest gear to reach 200, hardcore players were doing +14 in sub 200 ilvl, missinformed opinion = trolling

Very, very slowly read: If it takes longer to reach the item level needed to enter hardcore content, that effects hardcore players too.

[Kaver]

Name one expansion where you could get normal raid level gear in the first patch without doing group content? It has never been better.

Exactly. But the fact that you can get 197 ilvl gear without doing anything is the reason why casuals don't have any meaningful progression. So covenant gear is basically the reason why they are complaining. They just cant see it and instead they twist it into an excuse for why they should get mythic raiding gear.

[Thelxi]

They didn't "listen to the feedback", this was the plan all along.