9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[rhorle]

The reason was because it was too lucrative. This only illustrates the point. If ANY FORM OF CONTENT is too lucrative than hardcore players (in this case pvers) will complain about being forced to do it. Which they did. Pvp players also complained for years about having to do pve content as well but blizzard doesn't seem to give a shit about pve. The point that both you geniuses seem to miss is that their is a history of complaints about so called mandatory grinds on the part of the hardcore community that the developers are sensitive too and routinely try to gut until it bites them in the ass.

So you acknowledge that it is an issue of PvP players not wanting to do PvE and PvE not wanting to do PvP for the best rewards but some how turn it into a hardcore player problem? Blizzard his tried multiple times over the years to try and solve the problem of PvE item levels in PvP. This isn't about mandatory grinds but so much about balance of rewards and what is easier to get.

It was no different then when Blizzard first introduced Arena and used the term "Welfare epics" to reference the effect it had. Because it was easy to obtain gear then other parts of the game at the time. This isn't a new issue. Stop trying to pin it on the current group to hate.

[Glorious Leader]

It was an issue in the highest rating of pvp, problem that was adressed by blizz and doesnt interfere with w/e gear casuals could potentially get, cause the pvp fix only really affects the best pvp gear, gear that was actually the problem, 226 ilvl stuff with 2100+ rating and 233 weapons from weekly chest by having 2400+ rating, again, things.that.a.casual.will.never.touch.

So they were complaining about that gear being to good (mandatory) and the developers have fucked with it. Well look at that exactly what I said they do.

[rhorle]

If you want wow to get the kind of financial support for more content that Everquest 1 gets, then sure, good point bro. Like I said, this is all “fuck this game as long as there are people I can spit on as it burns down”

WoW already makes far more then Everquest 1 makes. But for 2020 it was reported to have around 82k players and a revenue of $11 million. Even if WoW gets to that point because people like other games more that isn't a problem. Why does wow always have to be the most popular? Why do you keep needing it to be the perfect game in your mind? Can't you move on?

At no point have I said to screw the game just so I can spit on people as it burns down. You have a lot of hate and delusion in your posts. Maybe you should take a break from the game and find something else to enjoy? The best part is you are the one saying the game should be burnt just so you can spit on anyone that isn't casual. Because casuals deserve everything simply for existing.

[Frozenbro]

So they were complaining about that gear being to good (mandatory) and the developers have fucked with it. Well look at that exactly what I said they do.

The same they do when they nerf pve trinkets so they arent viable on pvp cause otherwise serious pvpers are forced to mythic raid for those broken trinkets, stop trying to make a point when you dont play up here, you are just missinformed af.

[NineSpine]

WoW already makes far more then Everquest 1 makes. But for 2020 it was reported to have around 82k players and a revenue of $11 million. Even if WoW gets to that point because people like other games more that isn't a problem. Why does wow always have to be the most popular? Why do you keep needing it to be the perfect game in your mind? Can't you move on?

At no point have I said to screw the game just so I can spit on people as it burns down. You have a lot of hate and delusion in your posts. Maybe you should take a break from the game and find something else to enjoy? The best part is you are the one saying the game should be burnt just so you can spit on anyone that isn't casual. Because casuals deserve everything simply for existing.

I’d like wow to succeed because it’s an important game to me, but unfortunately it is too bad to play now, so I’ve already switched to FF14, Destiny, and classic wow. Although blizzard seems intent on ruining classic too.

If you think you are going to get the volume of content you get now, which has already been brought down substantially, if the game has significantly fewer players, you are straight up delusional.

But you just don’t care. You have one singular focus. It isn’t the health of the game. It isn’t good design. It isn’t that the game can justify resources. It is one thing: that you have people to talk down to and denigrate.

There is no “spitting” on hardcore players of the average player is allowed to hve fun too. If the only joy you get out of wow is being able to get on forums and rage at everyone who isn’t as hardcore as you, then you are the one who doesn’t like the game, not me. The game is just a vessel for whatever weird issues you have that make you only able to be happy when other people aren’t.

[Tadkins]

WoW already makes far more then Everquest 1 makes. But for 2020 it was reported to have around 82k players and a revenue of $11 million. Even if WoW gets to that point because people like other games more that isn't a problem. Why does wow always have to be the most popular? Why do you keep needing it to be the perfect game in your mind? Can't you move on?

You'd rather see WoW turned into a dead, niche game than just throw casuals/unskilled players a bone?

[tomten]

Yet, somehow, by some weird miracle, by some fluke of the universe, other games that allow players to do this don’t have these problems you claim are inevitable. Destiny doesn’t have this problem. FF14 doesn’t have this problem. GW2 doesn’t have this problem.
.

And exactly none of them has even come close to a fraction of wows player base or popularity.... So maybe there's a reason for them always being inferior to wow?
Maybe it has todo with giving everyone the same gear, making it worthless and lose all form of prestige?
I don't think casual should ever get close to the same gear because there's no reason for it as we've discussed in length and you ultimately agree with.

And you dont have your epic rant here based on feelings and emotions? Yeh right.... Its all your little emotional tirade, nothing else. See how that works?

[NineSpine]

And exactly none of them has even come close to a fraction of wows player base or popularity.... So maybe there's a reason for them always being inferior to wow?
Maybe it has todo with giving everyone the same gear, making it worthless and lose all form of prestige?
I don't think casual should ever get close to the same gear because there's no reason for it as we've discussed in length and you ultimately agree with.

And you dont have your epic rant here based on feelings and emotions? Yeh right.... Its all your little emotional tirade, nothing else. See how that works?

Those days are over buddy. FF14 is now equal or surpassing retail wow. Sorry you haven’t caught up.

[aceperson]

So in 9.1 you'll be able to upgrade gear to heroic iLvls by doing casual content. It has been likened to benthic gear so most presumably a limited resource/currency that will allow you to slowly work on upgrading your gear by doing daily quests and/or world quests.

Hopefully you can earn the currency from daily heroics and LFR as well in order to breathe some life in to those forms of casual content.

Thoughts? It seems as though Blizzard have listened to the feedback from all the casuals who quit shadowlands early on.

they've done this 4 expacs in a row now. make the initial game bare bones and then throw in tons and tons of catchup gear and mechanics in the x.1 patch. why do people not see these trends?

[rhorle]

But you just don’t care. You have one singular focus. It isn’t the health of the game. It isn’t good design. It isn’t that the game can justify resources. It is one thing: that you have people to talk down to and denigrate.

Why do you keep insisting on insulting and demonizing a person who has never made such an argument or statements? The volume of content hasn't been brought down substantially and WoW isn't in danger of having less content due to player loss. Remember how I said EQ made $11 million with 82k players? What do you think WoW made in 2020? It isn't comparable despite you being all doom and gloom chicken little.

I care about the health of the game. A healthy game does not given into silly demands just because they are being made. Weird right? A healthy game doesn't have players that don't want to play the game but refuse to quit. Weird right? Even look at your statement about Blizzard ruining classic even though it had few changes. You don't seem to be happy with any of the WoW products but still don't quit despite moving on to other games already. Weird right? Instead you sit here and insult anyone that does roll over to your narrow view of a healthy game. Again weird right?

The average player is allowed to have fun. The average player doesn't need Heroic/Mythic raid level gear in order to have fun. That is envy not fun talking. The best part about you raging on a forum about another person you think is spitting on casuals because they are too hardcore is that I am more casual then hardcore. I have an item level of 201 on my main with no alts currently at level cap. Weird huh?

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You'd rather see WoW turned into a dead, niche game than just throw casuals/unskilled players a bone?

Just because the game doesn't do what you want doesn't mean that it will be a dead and niche game. As I have already told you many times I have nothing against changes to the game to make it better for everyone. The changes you keep asking for and for the reasons you keep using are a problem though. Or would you like to again state how involved raiding is because a wowhead guide is much work to read?

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I believe that is exactly what they want, and they prove it every time they say "just leave then". They like sitting on their little perch and they don't care if they are the gods of an ever-shrinking puddle so long as they are on the top of it.

So the only way to improve the game is to listen to anyone that doesn't currently like it? It is to listen to those that have a chip on their shoulder that they have to insult anyone that plays more or at a higher level of skill then them? The very fact that you spent an hour and realized you wanted to play something that was fun and rewarding is proof that it is perfectly fine to stop playing a game when you no longer like playing it.

It is crazy that you and others keep painting that as a bad thing. That also doesn't mean people don't want it to be fun for as many people as possible.

[Tadkins]

I believe that is exactly what they want, and they prove it every time they say "just leave then". They like sitting on their little perch and they don't care if they are the gods of an ever-shrinking puddle so long as they are on the top of it.

I played some WoW today because I thought "hey, maybe it'd be fun to work on my old main on Horde side and get him caught up to my new main on Alliance side". After spending an hour doing some covenant campaign work (and I emphasize, "work", not "fun") I just felt like I'd wasted time I could have been playing something both fun and rewarding ... things WoW does not contain for anyone not inclined to raid or m+ their face off.

As for the new gearing system, it's nice for those that are still hanging on to WoW. But, honestly, I've seen behind the curtain and realized that WoW is designed to keep you running in circles and paying to work for Blizzard. There's no fun to it. So, too little, too late, for me.

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Even Asmongold was recently bemoaning the fact that FFXIV is more popular than WoW. And the playerbases are likely comparable between the two. Just because you're in love with WoW doesn't mean it's still top dog.

Yup, this does seem to be the case unfortunately. Haven't seen much evidence to the contrary.

And yep, FFXIV seems to be overtaking WoW these days. I can't wait to give that game a try when I get a new computer.

Just because the game doesn't do what you want doesn't mean that it will be a dead and niche game. As I have already told you many times I have nothing against changes to the game to make it better for everyone. The changes you keep asking for and for the reasons you keep using are a problem though. Or would you like to again state how involved raiding is because a wowhead guide is much work to read?

You're being disingenuous by saying that reading a wowhead guide is all it takes. We both know it's far, far more than that. In fact if you went into any class discord and referenced an icy veins or wowhead guide, they'd laugh at you and present you with a mess of other spreadsheets and other way more complicated guide and list of requirements to succeed in the game.

I wish a wowhead guide was all it took to get good in the game.

[rhorle]

I wish a wowhead guide was all it took to get good in the game.

Reading a Wowhead guide is all it takes to learn a class. There is a difference between knowing and doing which is again a reference to the skill gap that gets coming up and you keep dismissing. 90% of the stuff you listed that makes heroic raiding super hard is covered in a class guide. You don't need to do logs, discords, etc to learn a class. Talents, Conduits, Soulbinds, Rotations, Enchants, Gems, Legendaries, etc are all covered in the guides and you just copy what they say.

Class discords won't laugh at you and contradict with various spreadsheets and complicated guides. Because stuff isn't that complicated. I take it you either haven't looked at any modern guides or once again have no clue what it takes to actually learn and play a class. Which again reinforces that the gear gap is not what causes you to be obliterated in PvP.

[Tadkins]

Reading a Wowhead guide is all it takes to learn a class. There is a difference between knowing and doing which is again a reference to the skill gap that gets coming up and you keep dismissing. 90% of the stuff you listed that makes heroic raiding super hard is covered in a class guide. You don't need to do logs, discords, etc to learn a class. Talents, Conduits, Soulbinds, Rotations, Enchants, Gems, Legendaries, etc are all covered in the guides and you just copy what they say.

Class discords won't laugh at you and contradict with various spreadsheets and complicated guides. Because stuff isn't that complicated. I take it you either haven't looked at any modern guides or once again have no clue what it takes to actually learn and play a class. Which again reinforces that the gear gap is not what causes you to be obliterated in PvP.

I've never dismissed it. In fact I've admitted it numerous times, I'm not that skilled at the game. Notice how I don't use the word casual on myself, as when I did play the game I would play up to 10-12 hours a day. Just never been that hyper-skilled, despite my best efforts. Been playing since vanilla and I've never gotten higher than a blue parsing on that damned website. Read icy veins and wowhead guides over and over, copied everything they've said to a T, and it barely helps. Beneath those guides are a whole mess of other things one must learn before they're truly able to master the class, and that's the stuff I have always had a hard time grasping. The kind of stuff any class discord will throw at you and overwhelm you with when you try to deep dive into your class mechanics. Things like snapshotting and such when they existed back in the day.

However I've always been able to hold my own in random BG PvP, and for the most part that's all I've ever really cared about. Even as early as late Vanilla I could grind very good honor gear on my own terms. In every expansion up until now, there's always some form of decent gear I could get on my own. With even my lack of deep skill I was able to survive and kill most of the time, primarily because not many players in the game are actually that skilled either and for the most part things were on an even footing. At least until Shadowlands with the very wide gap between unskilled players like myself without connections, and all of the remotely decent gear only going to those with friends and connections. This is the first time I've felt like I don't truly belong, as someone who is not that good and not at all competitive, in a world that only seems to emphasize hyper-competitiveness nowadays.

I just want to feel like I matter in the game again.

[tomten]

Those days are over buddy. FF14 is now equal or surpassing retail wow. Sorry you haven’t caught up.

It such a shit game it makes no sense to keep up with it
Show me hard proof (aka source) what you're claiming is true

[Addiena]

I didn't read this. Whered you hear this? if its true I can't wait to hear people crying about forced content.

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The achievement requirement is obnoxious. Its one to thing to have thr world quests offer such paltry gains in the first place but to then also lock it behind ksm is fucking insulting.

KSM =KILL STUPID METAS, which is exactly my thoughts on M+

[Valcrist09]

So in 9.1 you'll be able to upgrade gear to heroic iLvls by doing casual content. It has been likened to benthic gear so most presumably a limited resource/currency that will allow you to slowly work on upgrading your gear by doing daily quests and/or world quests.

Hopefully you can earn the currency from daily heroics and LFR as well in order to breathe some life in to those forms of casual content.

Thoughts? It seems as though Blizzard have listened to the feedback from all the casuals who quit shadowlands early on.

Gearing for heroic isn’t the issue though it never was… 9.1 doesn’t fix anything

[Addiena]

It such a shit game it makes no sense to keep up with it
Show me hard proof (aka source) what you're claiming is true

The fact you used emojis in your argument pretty much tells me everything I needed to know about you.

Emojis are obnoxious and need to go die in a fire already.

[arkanon]

Gearing for heroic isn’t the issue though it never was… 9.1 doesn’t fix anything

The real issue is that none of the so called casuals can even agree on what the issue is. Some say they get stomped in pvp, some say they can't get in groups, some say they don't even want to play group content, some want mythic gear from WQ/solo play.

The only common themes seem to be wanting more gear, of a higher quality, with less effort than ever before combined with an inability to name a first tier in wows history where the solo player was able to obtain so much gear, of such a high quality, with such low effort compared to right now.

This is where some of the frustration comes from - the narrative that solo/casual players have it worse than ever before doesn't hold up to even a few mins of investigation.

[Wingspan]

Hmmm... if you can actually get near-Heroic raid gear through world content, I might actually re-sub and buy the expansion.

I will need to keep an eye on this.

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If they offer ANY FORM OF POWER GAIN for casual players it would become "mandatory" for raiders. They complained about the "mandatory" badge farming. The AP was exactly a form of casual friendly player progression that the game desperately needed after wod and it was slowly gutted because of cry baby hardcore cucks who felt forced to min max. Hell they bithced about how mandatory m+ was as well and that got gutted too! anything remotely powerful, anything that could serve remotely as alternative is automatically forced so other people can't have nice things. This expansion its been pvp so guess whats happening to pvp gear next patch... its the most ridiculous and disgustingly obvious favoritism.

I’d be fine with it if they made Heroic raid level gear that didn’t function as such in Raids or Dungeons or Battlegrounds... basically doing what they just did for PvP gear outside of its environment. It would probably prevent a lot of weeping about item levels.

[Dzonathan]

The real issue is that none of the so called casuals can even agree on what the issue is. Some say they get stomped in pvp, some say they can't get in groups, some say they don't even want to play group content, some want mythic gear from WQ/solo play.

The only common themes seem to be wanting more gear, of a higher quality, with less effort than ever before combined with an inability to name a first tier in wows history where the solo player was able to obtain so much gear, of such a high quality, with such low effort compared to right now.

This is where some of the frustration comes from - the narrative that solo/casual players have it worse than ever before doesn't hold up to even a few mins of investigation.

You put things together and it starts to make sense. Here, let me do it for you:
People want to get even gear without doing group content in order to be invited into groups and avoid being stomped in PvP.

Someone who is decked out in 220+ is not going to waste his time playing with someone who is 200 unless he's a guildie or has absolute confidence that he squeezes 100% performance out of his gear. Most new players dont fall under the "unless" category.

Most new players are also not numerous, well connected and organized enough to progress separately in their own isolated eco system like everyone else did at the start of expansion. If that wouldn't be the case then boosting meta wouldn't be a thing.