[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Beazy]

WoW doesnt do this.

and not just 1 for everything.

WoW does exactly that. And even the first version of WoW didn't handle everything on one server. . .

Jesus man /facepalm you have no clue what the fuck youre talking about. You need to go back to the old "development didnt start until last night at 10pm" arguments because you sound like a bumbling moron right now.

[Edge-]

No they dont a shard would just handle everything in its area and just update the database as it goes along, a shard does not handle the whole world, all the mobs and npcs along with all the instances, a shard is connected but handles the load of its set area on its own.

The collective sharding does, allowing you to transition between shards as you change groups or move through zones with more/fewer players in them.

WoW doesnt have server meshing, the servers dont mesh together and help each other they just focus on the job they are given. The whole point in server meshing is that it automatically dedicates as much server capacity as required to areas that need it, WoW doesnt do this.

That's literally what sharding does dude, it creates more instances of highly populated zones (moving server resources to handle them) and spins down those instances when they're no longer needed to handle the number of players.

Server meshing also means areas that are not being used wont be loaded in for no reason and waste server resources.

See above: There aren't going to be 20 instances of Badlands all the time. If it's unpopulated on a server, it'll have one and the rest of the server resources will be dedicated to other areas where there are more players.

The way they want servers to work in SC is the player is essentially a server point and it follows them around and adds more servers as needed, other player servers would merge and interact when close enough and then seperate at a certain distance but still being able to interact. If loads of players are in the same areas then it will be a large cluster of servers and not just 1 for everything.

Again, this is literally describing how sharding tech works.

[Kyanion]

WoW has bad performance when a large group of ppl are actually doing something in one area and thats a fact

Opinion: Wow has bad performance when a large group of ppl are actually doing something in one area

Look I know you have a hate boner for WoW and that's okay, but stop making shit up.

Yes during the event before Shadowlands it would go crazy but that was an outlier and not the norm. But that is okay, that does not fit your agenda and I know this.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Right but what happens if everyone on the server tries to go to the same place? Does it instant crash? Horrible frame lag? What happens then? I mean it is funny the servers die in 2-4 hours like clockwork.

50 people can be in the same place and you won't have a problem. However, if you have 50 player ships in the same location, your computer will lag really badly, and if there are a lot of explosions happening simultaneously you can crash.

[Katchii]

And a shard only handles a small part of the game

Which is what the SC version of server meshing would do as well, handle a more bite sized chunk of the game, with each chunk having it's own server. The server meshing would just make the transition from one server to another seamless. Just like the transition from one shard to another on WoW is seamless.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen..._dev_response/

Quotes from the post:

server meshing means that CIG has every planet and every space station running on its own server, which are seamlessly connected.

This is basically sharding and cross-realm grouping combined, which WoW already does.

However, the thing to remember is that having servers tied to specific in-game locations is just a temporary stepping stone on the way to the full server meshing implementation.

Ultimately though, the idea is not to have any fixed server boundaries. Instead a server will manage the game for a cluster of players. As the cluster spreads out, the area the server manages will grow, and as the players in a cluster bunch up, the area managed by the server shrinks. When clusters of players belonging to different servers overlap, the servers will decide whether to transition players between them, or even to break out a new cluster of players and spin up another server to handle it. In this version of server meshing, servers will only be assigned to locations where there are players, greatly reducing the number of servers we would otherwise need, and allowing the game to scale to higher player counts much more cheaply.

The actual implementation is a somewhat enhanced version of what WoW is already doing with Sharding. It's just active on a larger area than a WoW zone, but the underlying concept and tech is essentially the same. Where the game would dynamically manage server load based on where the activity is, and if necessary, create a new server to handle the increased load and turn off that server when it wasn't needed.

That tech already exists.

but an SC server has to handle everything at the same time

Yeah, because they don't have their server meshing implemented. So the server currently has to handle literally everything rather than having bite sized chunks each server would manage separately.

That's the entire POINT of what we're saying.

WoW already figured it out, years ago, SC hasn't yet after all the time and money they've spent. Why is that?

the systems to expand it are being developed

This is also exactly the problem. Other games have already figured it out. SC has had 8+ years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars poured into it with supposedly fantastic and talented people working on it, and they can't do what other folks have already done, and they did it in less time.

you still complain about an occasional crash now and then without understanding there is a very good reason for it.

What good reason is that?

The only reasons I can think of that SC can't do what WoW has been doing for years is because they don't know what they're doing OR they're not working on it and are instead using those resources to work on other things. Neither of which is a "good reason."

[kenn9530]

snip

The shards are static they dont move with players they are set for the zone or zones they are set to manage and thats it, the amount of layers available are also set manually, sharding is not the same as server meshing, the WoW system just adds those players all to the same server, the server meshing system players would all have thier own servers and merge automatically when close enough.

Every area in WoW has at least 1 shard managing it, with server meshing areas without players can just be completely ignored until a player actually goes near it so all resources are being used in areas with players at all times.

WoW is all static the shards dont follow the player, they just have some communication to thier neighbour shards.

snip

The current system WoW uses is each shard has its own area and when you cross the border you switch shards, SC will use that as a stepping stone towards server meshing, so servers are only active where a player actually is and WoW does not do this at all.

Server meshing is not just something that can be implemented just like that, the infrastructure has to be built into the game and they are working on that and that takes time, time of which WoW has had decades to make from previous games to current WoW.

It takes time to develop everything needed for networking, WoW has spend decades working on networking already.

The reason is the game is still being developed which is more than a good enough reason.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

One of the ways players can hasten the crash of a server is by spawning a lot of ships over and over. The game will try to delete your ship if no one is on it and you go a few kilometers away from it (hence why you can't really do something like leave your fuel chugging Constellation or Carrack in orbit while you fly down to the planet in a Merlin or a Pisces, which consumes less fuel), but there are ways to circumvent that.

[Beazy]

The shards are static they dont move with players they are set for the zone or zones they are set to manage and thats it, the amount of layers available are also set manually, sharding is not the same as server meshing, the WoW system just adds those players all to the same server, the server meshing system players would all have thier own servers and merge automatically when close enough.

Every area in WoW has at least 1 shard managing it, with server meshing areas without players can just be completely ignored until a player actually goes near it so all resources are being used in areas with players at all times.

WoW is all static the shards dont follow the player, they just have some communication to thier neighbour shards.



The current system WoW uses is each shard has its own area and when you cross the border you switch shards, SC will use that as a stepping stone towards server meshing, so servers are only active where a player actually is and WoW does not do this at all.

Server meshing is not just something that can be implemented just like that, the infrastructure has to be built into the game and they are working on that and that takes time, time of which WoW has had decades to make from previous games to current WoW.

It takes time to develop everything needed for networking, WoW has spend decades working on networking already.

The reason is the game is still being developed which is more than a good enough reason.

Everything you typed is wrong.

EVERYTHING.

There are no static servers. Thers no such thing in multplayer games. Even old multiplayer games where a PC had to "host". You dont know what your talking about, like normal.

Youre like a Jr Dev who cant figure out why they cant access their GetNames() function/class inside their local static string ManagerName() method. . . . . You really gotta read up on the dependency inversion principle.

[Katchii]

The shards are static they dont move with players they are set for the zone or zones they are set to manage and thats it, the amount of layers available are also set manually, sharding is not the same as server meshing, the WoW system just adds those players all to the same server, the server meshing system players would all have thier own servers and merge automatically when close enough.

Every area in WoW has at least 1 shard managing it, with server meshing areas without players can just be completely ignored until a player actually goes near it so all resources are being used in areas with players at all times.

WoW is all static the shards dont follow the player, they just have some communication to thier neighbour shards.



The current system WoW uses is each shard has its own area and when you cross the border you switch shards, SC will use that as a stepping stone towards server meshing, so servers are only active where a player actually is and WoW does not do this at all.

Server meshing is not just something that can be implemented just like that, the infrastructure has to be built into the game and they are working on that and that takes time, time of which WoW has had decades to make from previous games to current WoW.

It takes time to develop everything needed for networking, WoW has spend decades working on networking already.

The reason is the game is still being developed which is more than a good enough reason.

See @Beazy post.

As to the "still being developed" piece that's honestly not a good reason at this point in time. You seem to think it is, but it's not.

Server stability and functionality are integral to a functioning game and are core pieces of technology that are fundamental building blocks. The fact that they're working on superfluous other stuff like NPC AI for taking a shit, while they don't have this figured out means they have their priorities all fucked up.

If you went to you boss and told them "hey I don't have that super important, system defining, make-or-break technology done yet...but I do have this cool T-posing NPC that will walk to the bathroom and take a shit!" you'd be fired. And you're giving them a pass for this kind of stuff.

I fully understand that different teams work on different things, but when you have team members working on completely unnecessary and superfluous stuff when make-or-break pieces of the project aren't nailed down yet....something is off.

[Beazy]

If you went to you boss and told them "hey I don't have that super important, system defining, make-or-break technology done yet...but I do have this cool T-posing NPC that will walk to the bathroom and take a shit!" you'd be fired. And you're giving them a pass for this kind of stuff.

Unless CRobberts knows he bit off more he could chew with CryEngine and hes ordering the coding out of Urine and Fecal dropping AI to buy time.

I've done it before, I screwed up a database with over a billion records that took over 9 hours to restore from backup. I said we ran into a interface bug, commented out a submit function, then showed my boss "SEE THIS BUTTON NOT WERKIN NO MORE NEED 2 FIX PRIORITY"! I used that extra time to browse reddit and monitor the database restoration. Dodged a career ending bullet that day.

[Katchii]

Unless CRobberts knows he bit off more he could chew with CryEngine and hes ordering the coding out of Urine and Fecal dropping AI to buy time.

I've done it before, I screwed up a database with over a billion records that took over 9 hours to restore from backup. I said we ran into a interface bug, commented out a submit function, then showed my boss "SEE THIS BUTTON NOT WERKIN NO MORE NEED 2 FIX PRIORITY"! I used that extra time to browse reddit and monitor the database restoration. Dodged a career ending bullet that day.

While that's a fair point....the differences in roles and responsibilities between you and Chris Roberts is pretty profound. The performance expectations of the head guy vs a "grunt" are very different.

There's also a pretty big difference between a 9 hour fuck up and delaying the release of a game by 5+ years....

That said, smart on your part!

[Beazy]

While that's a fair point....the differences in roles and responsibilities between you and Chris Roberts is pretty profound. The performance expectations of the head guy vs a "grunt" are very different.

There's also a pretty big difference between a 9 hour fuck up and delaying the release of a game by 5+ years....

That said, smart on your part!

And thats what makes me so mad about CRobberts. I know the man knows how to code in C. . . So how could he have made the CryEngine mistake? I just . . . don't. . . . get. . . . it.

I've never shipped a game, and even I know you stay away from Gamebryo, HERO, and Cry engines. These are engines that excel in single player experiences.

[qwerty123456]

Yes, there is definitely someone spewing a lot of BS. It's not me.

You aren't getting it dude. Stretch goal numbers aren't based on estimates on how much the development of something will cost its just numbers magically pulled from a devs ass. Clearly they need billions more to actually implement any stretch goal "reward". Sure other games create stretch goals and successfully complete them and their games without extra cash but that's just because they aren't as immersive and are terrible games with no real content.

Kenn getting so desperate he's making SC devs look more and more incompetent with each post lol.

[kenn9530]

See @Beazy post.

As to the "still being developed" piece that's honestly not a good reason at this point in time. You seem to think it is, but it's not.

Server stability and functionality are integral to a functioning game and are core pieces of technology that are fundamental building blocks. The fact that they're working on superfluous other stuff like NPC AI for taking a shit, while they don't have this figured out means they have their priorities all fucked up.

If you went to you boss and told them "hey I don't have that super important, system defining, make-or-break technology done yet...but I do have this cool T-posing NPC that will walk to the bathroom and take a shit!" you'd be fired. And you're giving them a pass for this kind of stuff.

I fully understand that different teams work on different things, but when you have team members working on completely unnecessary and superfluous stuff when make-or-break pieces of the project aren't nailed down yet....something is off.

Beazy talks BS and has nothing to back him up.

There is 2 games being made and the one we will see is SQ42 which doesnt really require much multiplayer support if any at all, the MMO is years away so we have plenty of time for everything to be ready for it.

A game is a pre alpha is not meant for the public to even play so having something to play at all is more than acceptable, if you play the alpha you accept you may not get the best experience and thats your choice.

Im still waiting on something to support you view on stretch goals meaning thats all the money they needed to develop the game.

You aren't getting it dude. Stretch goal numbers aren't based on estimates on how much the development of something will cost its just numbers magically pulled from a devs ass. Clearly they need billions more to actually implement any stretch goal "reward". Sure other games create stretch goals and successfully complete them and their games without extra cash but that's just because they aren't as immersive and are terrible games with no real content.

Kenn getting so desperate he's making SC devs look more and more incompetent with each post lol.

not desperate about anything, im happy to wait as long as it takes to be complete and if by some chance it failed im fine with that also as i accepted that possibility when i backed the project.

[Katchii]

Beazy talks BS and has nothing to back him up.

Pot, meet kettle.

There is 2 games being made and the one we will see is SQ42 which doesnt really require much multiplayer support if any at all, the MMO is years away so we have plenty of time for everything to be ready for it.

SQ42 is also years away.

At what point will the wait be too long? How much time is "enough" time for development?

A game is a pre alpha is not meant for the public to even play so having something to play at all is more than acceptable, if you play the alpha you accept you may not get the best experience and thats your choice.

It is not "more than acceptable," they're doing it to milk people like you. YOU find it more than acceptable. I think it's a joke.

It's an MMO that can't support massive number of people, can't last more then 4 hours without crashing, with integral core systems missing with no tentative date as to when those core systems will be implemented. After years and years of missed dates, not for releasing (because I know what BS you'll pull there) but on patches, and on the content missing from those patches.

SQ42 Beta was supposed to be Q4 2020......where is it?

Im still waiting on something to support you view on stretch goals meaning thats all the money they needed to develop the game.

How about you tell me why you think having all of their funding goals met means they didn't receive all the money they needed to make the game they said they'd make.

Their own funding website says they met all their funding goals, how does that NOT translate to getting all the money they needed to make the game they set out to make?

[Calfredd]

not desperate about anything, im happy to wait as long as it takes to be complete and if by some chance it failed im fine with that also as i accepted that possibility when i backed the project.

Your attitude and "facts" posted in this thread actually states the opposite.

[Beazy]

Beazy talks BS and has nothing to back him up.

Its not my fault you continually talk about shit so far out of your wheelhouse that I can easily call you out. You're still wrong.

Every post you make is wrong or a blatant lie.

[Edge-]

There is 2 games being made and the one we will see is SQ42 which doesnt really require much multiplayer support if any at all, the MMO is years away so we have plenty of time for everything to be ready for it.

Except isn't SQ42 still waiting on other tech primarily designed for SC to be finished? Like, some of the planetary tech and stuff?

Im still waiting on something to support you view on stretch goals meaning thats all the money they needed to develop the game.

Generally if a developer says, "We need $1,200,000 to make our game." the expectation is that they will be able to make the game for $1,200,000. If they add additional stretch goals, say another "chapter" or whatever at $1,500,000, more in-depth customization systems at $1,600,000, mocap animation at $1,900,000, the expectation is that if they secure that amount of funding they will be able to deliver on the core game and the stretch goals based on how much they were funded.

But this is the problem with some crowdfunded games - in order to get funding, a great many grossly underestimate costs and need to repeatedly return to backers to ask for more money, or seek outside investment. Or both in some instances. Many developers are up-front that the funding they raise will not be enough to finish the project but that it's being used to get them a long way there and help them secure additional investment so fully fund it.

That SC is well over $400M in funding, including outside investment on top of the $360M in direct crowdfunding, I'd say they're way overbudget for what appears to be a final $65M stretch goal that was reached sometime back in 2014-15 (they don't give dates for the final two stretch goals being reached).

If they didn't think they could deliver these goals at the level of funding they stated then they were dishonestly used to continue raising money.

[Afrospinach]

See @Beazylike NPC AI for taking a shit, while they don't have this figured out means they have their priorities all fucked up.

Do you really want the guy trying to make NPCs take a shit doing your server meshing?

[Edge-]

Do you really want the guy trying to make NPCs take a shit doing your server meshing?

There are dozens of other things that need a lot of work before, "Make sure NPC's can sit on a toilet and flush it, and that they can pull the physically rendered covers over themselves in bed when they go to sleep.", even if we're just talking about working on NPC behaviors/AI.