9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[Crimson Spears]

I've played with some pretty mediocre players and can tell you that without catch up badge of justice gear we would never have progressed through T5. And our catch up wasn't due to missing time played, it was just required to catch up to better guilds.

I'm sure I'll be flamed for being an old man, but I can remember once upon a time when we played games because they were fun to play. We didn't ask game developers to bribe us with phat loots to play thier games.

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If wasn't about getting into content for most. It was about being able to complete the content. Players who aren't as good as you actually need better gear than you had to complete the same content.

As far as RIO, that makes a lot more sense as a gating /measurement tool for grouping than "what gear do you have", so I take your argument as a good thing.

I do wish games were less focused on rewards...well maybe not cosmetic rewards I do love my transmog but I think wow is to reliant on power rewards. Would torghast for example even be minded if it just had cosmetics rather then the devs hamfisting it into the progression system?

[jazen]

Maybe blizz should offer a reduced rate 'casual player' subscription. For those who have no desire/ability to do rated/organized content, the price should be 50% lower than those that do the content. The reduced rate player could only que for random bg's, lfr wings, and normal and heroic only dungeons. This solves both problems-the discounted rate should make the more casual player stop complaining about the gear differential, while the non-casual player who pays the normal rate can maintain his/her exclusive club of better geared folks. Of course, to slum with the casual players, they'd have to cap ilvl for randoms to the casual player cap.

[Wingspan]

So, if the only reason people do harder content is to get meaningless gear, it sounds like harder content really isn't serving any purpose. So let's just not include it. Gear disparity solved.

You know, I have always found it odd that being a skilled player rewards you with the absolute LAST thing that a skilled player actually needs... which is better gear. While at the same time, unskilled players actually do need it and rarely get it.

I’m not kidding myself. It’s never going to change because the design has been dominant for too many years in too many games. You can’t unring the bell I guess. I just consider the situation to be one of those Bizarro-World things that we see every day and accept.

[Crimson Spears]

You know, I have always found it odd that being a skilled player rewards you with the absolute LAST thing that a skilled player actually needs... which is better gear. While at the same time, unskilled players actually do need it and rarely get it.

I’m not kidding myself. It’s never going to change because the design has been dominant for too many years in too many games. You can’t unring the bell I guess. I just consider the situation to be one of those Bizarro-World things that we see every day and accept.

I think it comes down to how games work in general. While you could argue that what your saying makes sense and in some way it does. It would allow good players to utterly demolish a game in a week.

[tomten]

The fact you used emojis in your argument pretty much tells me everything I needed to know about you.

Emojis are obnoxious and need to go die in a fire already.

Wtf you talking about? Emojis is a necessary evil in the online world to convey and reflect an emotional state along with the text.
See? It works just brilliantly

[Wingspan]

I think it comes down to how games work in general. While you could argue that what your saying makes sense and in some way it does. It would allow good players to utterly demolish a game in a week.

That is not so different than we have now... and the game could be tweaked to make it much tougher to do.

Classic pretty much was demolished by better players at record speed. And there have been raids in the past in retail that were crushed pretty quickly. Ultimately the better players cut a swath through the content a lot quicker... HOW quick is a matter of tuning more than anything else.

Tuning is the only way to prevent it and, as it happens, tuning would be a lot easier for them if they did not have to account for large variations in gear power.

Like I said, it’s never going to change because people’s minds are set on the system... but the system has a glaring flaw that creates a ton of its own problems.

[Daffan]

As opposed to the current system, which is working SWIMMINGLY at keeping people subbed, right?

What is your alternative? If they remove the artificial grinds and gating, it will be even worse for them (Blizzard).

If they give away even more free stuff (MORE than now ezmode) it also gets worse for Blizzard retention. Players already majority realize that gear means nothing, casuals are farming gear for zero purpose, more free gear will enlighten the remaining people to realize how stupid the whole thing is.

[Frozenbro]

You know, I have always found it odd that being a skilled player rewards you with the absolute LAST thing that a skilled player actually needs... which is better gear. While at the same time, unskilled players actually do need it and rarely get it.

This is so stupid xd check wowprogress and see the latest Mythic Denathrius kills, what helped those guilds to kill him? you guessed right, the best gear, unless you stupidly think that every guild out there can kill mythic Denathrius with 220 ilvl or so which was the average ilvl that Limit had.

Casuals needed better progression cause they were hitting the 200 ilvl wall super fast, but players that do mythic also need the best gear to actually complete the content cause they arent Limit/Echo (some of them dont even finish it), so next time you plan to say something this stupid, just dont, the amount of people voicing their missinformed opinion in this forum is insane and it isnt even considered trolling, unreal.

[Echocho]

This is so stupid xd check wowprogress and see the latest Mythic Denathrius kills, what helped those guilds to kill him? you guessed right, the best gear, unless you stupidly think that every guild out there can kill mythic Denathrius with 220 ilvl or so which was the average ilvl that Limit had.

Casuals needed better progression cause they were hitting the 200 ilvl wall super fast, but players that do mythic also need the best gear to actually complete the content cause they arent Limit/Echo (some of them dont even finish it), so next time you plan to say something this stupid, just dont, the amount of people voicing their missinformed opinion in this forum is insane and it isnt even considered trolling, unreal.

Everyone deserves to have a long term gear progression in a RPG. The quality of the gear isn't really what's important as long as there isn't too big of a power gap between players.

The covenant gear situation that casuals ran in to in 9.0 was like if mythic raids suddenly stopped awarding any gear and your gear progression ended after your first couple of resets of heroic. Nothing to work towards, nothing to make your power grow for months.

Then in 9.1 you learn that mythic raids will drop gear again. Would you return? Could you trust the developers to not pull the same stunt again?

Ironically we complain a lot about "systems" but this is an area where WoW could use some. We should know what to expect, that every patch had a base reward structure to fall back on for the hardest of hardcores and the most casual of the casuals.

[Tradu]

Everyone deserves to have a long term gear progression in a RPG.

I agree, WQ gear, covenant gear etc starts out too high so you reach the limit of what's reasonable for that content to reward too quickly.

[arkanon]

I agree, WQ gear, covenant gear etc starts out too high so you reach the limit of what's reasonable for that content to reward too quickly.

I have made this point many times - the only "problem" is that Cov gear was too easy to get, and FAR too easy to upgrade. Its more than powerful enough, and is actually the most powerful gear obtainable by solo play in the first tier of any expansion.

[Tradu]

I have made this point many times - the only "problem" is that Cov gear was too easy to get, and FAR too easy to upgrade. Its more than powerful enough, and is actually the most powerful gear obtainable by solo play in the first tier of any expansion.

Yeah. It's a decent progression system, it just needs to start like 20-30 ilevel lower so there's more time for growth/progression. Alternatively just keep the current ilevels and make them take longer to progress through. The gap from capped "solo content" gear to heroic/mythic gear is fine. I don't think it's fine how quickly it reaches normal raid ilevel, essentially removing the player power incentive for the entry level raid difficulty.

[h8ryan]

You're defending an unfair class system in the game. It suggests you fear that a casual player or supposed bad player like me actually giving you a fair fight.

If you were a skilled player you wouldn't be 200ilevel

getting 1400 in arena isn't hard, it's even easier with RBGs, you're just lazy/bad and are pretending it has to do with a lack of ways for you to get gear

[arkanon]

Yeah. It's a decent progression system, it just needs to start like 20-30 ilevel lower so there's more time for growth/progression. Alternatively just keep the current ilevels and make them take longer to progress through. The gap from capped "solo content" gear to heroic/mythic gear is fine. I don't think it's fine how quickly it reaches normal raid ilevel, essentially removing the player power incentive for the entry level raid difficulty.

I think it is compounded by players trying to jump up the ladder too far with each step - "just finished my very first M+2!!! that wasnt too hard, time to queue up for some M+15s!!!!" - for example there are people @ ilvl 200 complaining that groups full of ilvl 220s wont invite them - and no one has been able to answer why they are applying for groups so far ahead of them in progression. The solution is very simple, and hasnt changed since day 1 - do content appropriate to your gear and skill, and if you find the groups listed have requirements you feel are unreasonable, start your own group and fill it with, for example, ilvl 200 players.

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If you were a skilled player you wouldn't be 200ilevel

getting 1400 in arena isn't hard, it's even easier with RBGs, you're just lazy/bad and are pretending it has to do with a lack of ways for you to get gear

@Tadkins literally does not own SL, and has never played it - not even for a few minutes. That is the core of this "issue" - players who openly admit to never having played the game, telling those who do they are wrong. The "problem" they have fabricated is made worse by their flat-out refusal to do any group content to obtain the gear rewarded for completing group content.

[dcc626]

So its garbage not meant to provide an actual alternative but to function as ketchup for alts or returning as players

they arent going to give alternatives to raid gear from world content. last time they did that (benthic armor) people threw a fit.

Your raid or do m+ or pvp. you get a vault every week as well. thats what you do to get geared. thats it.

[Frozenbro]

Everyone deserves to have a long term gear progression in a RPG. The quality of the gear isn't really what's important as long as there isn't too big of a power gap between players.

I wasnt advocating against this system, its a good system thats gonna give casuals constant progression and a clear goal close to heroic raiding ilvl, i was pointing out how stupid was the other poster argument saying that skilled players are the ones that need gear the less in the game, which basically boils down to "if you mythic raid, you are good, you dont need gear" which is plain wrong and shows how missinformed he is.

[Argorwal]

I loved templates. I also loved the Wrath system. Even someone like me got decent gear out of that. I'd be fine with either of those systems coming back.

Wrath also had rating requirements on gear.

[Lurker1]

Yeah. It's a decent progression system, it just needs to start like 20-30 ilevel lower so there's more time for growth/progression. Alternatively just keep the current ilevels and make them take longer to progress through. The gap from capped "solo content" gear to heroic/mythic gear is fine. I don't think it's fine how quickly it reaches normal raid ilevel, essentially removing the player power incentive for the entry level raid difficulty.

Im happy it does that because i hate raiding feels good man!

[h8ryan]

Wrath also had rating requirements on gear.

wrath was literally worse, these people are insane lol

if you weren't 2200 you immediately were at a disadvantage because you didn't have the BiS pvp weapon, if you didn't have a shadowmourne you were at a disadvantage, if you didn't have the BiS arpen trinkets you were at a disadvantage

Wrath depended on cheese comps, legendary, and heroic raid locked pve trinkets and was made insurmountably worse if you couldn't hit 2200 early in the season

[munkeyinorbit]

Exactly. But the fact that you can get 197 ilvl gear without doing anything is the reason why casuals don't have any meaningful progression. So covenant gear is basically the reason why they are complaining. They just cant see it and instead they twist it into an excuse for why they should get mythic raiding gear.

But they do have meaningful progression. Running one m+ a week will provide options at a higher ilvl. It's hardly a hardcore activity. People who do t run group content are not casuals. They are non players.