Is Warcraft in the Dark Fantasy category?

[jackofwind]

What do you think? I've felt it was border line for a long time, but having watched a bit more fantasy recently, it definitely is very much in the dark Fantasy category, it's not as Dark as Warhammer or elderscrolls, those are almost downright occultic, but it's not far off.

it's got some light elements and comic release, but it's not the wonder fest you might associate fantasy with.. but then if you think about it, most fantasy is pretty dark.

Not even close.

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Would love for you to actually give me an answer like Para did, especially on why you think the Chaos Gods wouldn't be akin to a Fel Pantheon. I mean, the Void in WoW is legit just ripped from HP Lovecraft.

For starters the Chaos Gods are in an eternal struggle for dominance with each other - they hate working together, distrust and look down on each other, and embody polar opposites of each other (ie: Tzeentch = Change / Nurgle = Stagnation). They empower mortal champions for their own ends while warring with each other constantly, and vying/competing to be the one who is able to give their gifts to the strongest mortals.

[DesmondCreighton]

I've seen Disney movies more dark than World of Warcraft, especially lately. World of Warcraft is made for orphan annies.

[TheFirstOnes]

Not even close.

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For starters the Chaos Gods are in an eternal struggle for dominance with each other - they hate working together, distrust and look down on each other, and embody polar opposites of each other (ie: Tzeentch = Change / Nurgle = Stagnation). They empower mortal champions for their own ends while warring with each other constantly, and vying/competing to be the one who is able to give their gifts to the strongest mortals.

I mean, that can still work, all while they essentially rule over different amounts of Demons. The problem with Disorder/Chaos currently is that, outside of Sargeras, they literally have no rule. It's just every type of Demon destroying each-other and only "serving" the most powerful one. However, due to the Legion and whatnot, it's possible the Demons go into factions and each Faction is ruled by its own "god". But these essential Gods of Chaos can still wage war amongst themselves and rule as opposites of themselves, while serving the prime nature of Disorder/Chaos, etc.

[Beloren]

If we are honest though there is a LOT of horrific stuff in the warcraft universe, its just presented in a fun way so it doesnt feel dark.
For example, orcs enslaving and sacrificing draenie to power the dark portal is pretty fucking dark, but its so damn colorful and spectacular it doesnt feel that way. The horror is watching a light show of magic fly around and some corpses fade away.

Some of the stories are genuinely dark, kids eating their families in the plaguelands, but then you see the ghoul named timmy you chuckle and kill him for lewt.

demon hunters training is dark, but it seems more like exposition to justify their edgy attitudes than genuine horror.

Narratively i'd say its pretty dark, we are currently working with people who stitch corpses together to create abominations and other people who torture naughty behaviour out of people for eternity while preparing to defeat a giant bald person who runs a giant torture dungeon.

Its a dark story told in a light way. Torture fun for the whole family.

Very well put. And pretty spot on.

I wonder how many people see it. I guess my title is more subjective than I'd like. What constitute as dark fantasy would vary too many people based on things like their experience, cultural or entertainment, sometimes age/generation. But i think by human standards, all can agree that wow's stories are very dark but presented in a lighter way than some of the darkest fantasies.


I do get the impression sometimes that people are only considering the darkest fantasies around as dark, Warcraft doesn't promote light or goodness. Sure it has heroes, and we save the day, which is more the epic/heroic and even a lot of high fantasies, but it doesn't focus on virtue or the good character of the heroes. Even the legendary characters have far more focus on their darkness, their conflict, their brokenness and don't very often offer any real hope.

Sure we beat the darkness, but it never is dispelled in some areas, we never see civilizations flourish in a good way. Good times are usually the brief pre-setting or opening scenario that quickly turns dark and it's darker and darker from there.

When you save something, you NEVER see and rarely hear about any good it's done any real improvement, it's all completely ignored in favour of the new terror. It's one terror to the next.

I would conclude it's not as dark as some other fantasies, but it's pretty dark and it's disguising itself as something lighter. But the lighter elements and the colourful elements do make it passable as lighter.

Even with its dark and severe story, it doesn't feel dark because of all the bright glimmer and glitter, and colourful cartoony presentation. But this is what makes it very naughty in one respect, I think it may be desensitising a lot of our generation to a level of darkness we should be horrified.

But i would counter myself by stating that it is often the result of writers in this genre trying to raise stakes, create more drama etc, and as a video game based story, it has to be about the next challenge - the epic nature demands it, so they have to create more drama. Also when MoP tried to be lighter.. it gained heavy criticism because they thought it was losing it's "edginess" ..i..e darker mature theme.. it is probably why the story turned out very very dark in the end, and the grim setting of the WoD starting are made it very popular.


Warcraft knows it can't survive on dark alone, a lot of people like it's colours and it's brightness when they do nice looking areas and lighter tones, this appeals to that aspect in most people, so as long as the stories are dark and darker, but the scenes have enough sparkle in them. Tha'ts it's charm.. i think the combination has kept a lot of people here.

[OwenBurton]

It's a fruit salad. Steampunk, high fantasy, low fantasy, mid fantasy, children's fantasy etc, not to mention some other fantasies as well.

They grow tired of it and dont want to write any consequences - they roll out another, opposite narrative.

I do not think Warcraft is overall dark - but most of the Horde quests are probably quite dark in comparison with the Alliance ones, at least. For example, if you do the Silverpine or Hillsbrad quests, there are quite a few quests that are somewhat dark, although I think it's more normalized for Horde players, because of the overall harsher theme and everything that it's not as noticeable if you play Horde all the time (even the Cooking quests involve stealing food from others, for example). Horde players are generally much more invested and jaded than Alliance ones, from my experience, and are attracted to grittier and mature themes that make people pause and feel uncomfortable sometimes. Do you remember the Overlord Krom'gar quests, for example?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Is_This_Justice%3F

They involved the mass massacre of an entire tauren settlement, the tauren leader's wife, son and entire tribe, as well as the bombing of that night elf druidic school at Thal'darah Grove, killing children, according to Garrosh. Some Horde quests in Pandaria are also a bit morally dubious - such as kidnapping pandaren children at Paw'don Village to force the leader to cooperate with them. During the Horde quests in the War of the Thorns, I remember most civilians in Astranaar, including shopkeepers, being apparently targeted and killed by Lorash ("Technically, we don't need to kill the civilians...but I like your style.")

During the Horde War campaign, most of Brennadam's population was massacred by Horde soldiers, and during the questing, there were Kul Tiran children looking at the bodies of their dead parents:
https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlor...rde_attack_on/

And there was a Mistweaver Nian, an apparently neutral NPC player, whose final quotes were, "This is a house of peace. Have you no respect for the injured? Please... The people here... need... healing... As do you..." Many Horde players felt extremely uncomfortable about that quest, especially as Lady Liadrin was the one who originally tasked players with killing her.

Some quests also involved the Forsaken capturing and experimenting on living human NPCs in Hillsbrad, giving them examinations and slowly taking them away one by one, who were eventually turned into skeletons, other things, or parts of other things, someone on Wowhead mentioned that this reminded them a bit of things which happened in the Second World War:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._for_Hillsbrad
https://www.wowhead.com/item=63249/t...sbrad#comments

So there are pretty graphic and mature themes in the game - but I'm still not sure if this qualifies it as a dark game necessarily overall.

[valky94]

maybe in the days of WC1 and WC2, when it was orcs vs humans and dark magic and shit, today no

[jackofwind]

I mean, that can still work, all while they essentially rule over different amounts of Demons. The problem with Disorder/Chaos currently is that, outside of Sargeras, they literally have no rule. It's just every type of Demon destroying each-other and only "serving" the most powerful one. However, due to the Legion and whatnot, it's possible the Demons go into factions and each Faction is ruled by its own "god". But these essential Gods of Chaos can still wage war amongst themselves and rule as opposites of themselves, while serving the prime nature of Disorder/Chaos, etc.

Right but the Chaos gods don't signify actual "chaos" or disorder in Warhammer. They are Chaos gods because they're set against the "order" of Sigmar and his associated religion. Their actual attributes though are not necessarily chaotic, they're just extreme. They absolutely do not serve "Chaos" with a capital "C".

The Chaos Gods (it's maybe more accurate to call the the Ruinous Powers really) are only called as such because they were birthed from The Immaterium (The Warp / The Realm of Chaos). Each of the Ruinous Powers is entirely single-minded and never stray from their single intent - they're really not chaotic in nature at all.

ie: Nurgle is the extreme embodiment of stagnation, the polar opposite of Tzeentch who embodies the essence of unbridled change. Nurgle actually represents natural order taken to the extreme (disease/decay/rebirth). His whole shtick is the absolute and utter subjugation of change, evolution, and healing - forcing everything to adhere to his (grimdark) version of natural order.

Much better embodiments of actual chaos in Warhammer are, for example, the Beastmen and Orks. They exist to fuck shit up with no real plan, no greater vision than to just make the world a big fuckfest of fighting and raping and rapefighting - these are the guys that serve "Chaos" with a capital "C". Next to them the Ruinous Powers are essentially just as ordered as the Sigmarites, they just have dramatically different goals.

[ravenmoon]

Very well put. And pretty spot on.

I wonder how many people see it. I guess my title is more subjective than I'd like. What constitute as dark fantasy would vary too many people based on things like their experience, cultural or entertainment, sometimes age/generation. But i think by human standards, all can agree that wow's stories are very dark but presented in a lighter way than some of the darkest fantasies.


I do get the impression sometimes that people are only considering the darkest fantasies around as dark, Warcraft doesn't promote light or goodness. Sure it has heroes, and we save the day, which is more the epic/heroic and even a lot of high fantasies, but it doesn't focus on virtue or the good character of the heroes. Even the legendary characters have far more focus on their darkness, their conflict, their brokenness and don't very often offer any real hope.

Sure we beat the darkness, but it never is dispelled in some areas, we never see civilizations flourish in a good way. Good times are usually the brief pre-setting or opening scenario that quickly turns dark and it's darker and darker from there.

When you save something, you NEVER see and rarely hear about any good it's done any real improvement, it's all completely ignored in favour of the new terror. It's one terror to the next.

I would conclude it's not as dark as some other fantasies, but it's pretty dark and it's disguising itself as something lighter. But the lighter elements and the colourful elements do make it passable as lighter.

Even with its dark and severe story, it doesn't feel dark because of all the bright glimmer and glitter, and colourful cartoony presentation. But this is what makes it very naughty in one respect, I think it may be desensitising a lot of our generation to a level of darkness we should be horrified.

But i would counter myself by stating that it is often the result of writers in this genre trying to raise stakes, create more drama etc, and as a video game based story, it has to be about the next challenge - the epic nature demands it, so they have to create more drama. Also when MoP tried to be lighter.. it gained heavy criticism because they thought it was losing it's "edginess" ..i..e darker mature theme.. it is probably why the story turned out very very dark in the end, and the grim setting of the WoD starting are made it very popular.


Warcraft knows it can't survive on dark alone, a lot of people like it's colours and it's brightness when they do nice looking areas and lighter tones, this appeals to that aspect in most people, so as long as the stories are dark and darker, but the scenes have enough sparkle in them. Tha'ts it's charm.. i think the combination has kept a lot of people here.

i think you haven’t asked the question you really meant to ask.

judging from your responses and those of others. You seem to be asking whether Warcraft as a fantasy is dark. And the answer is 100% yes, but you actually asked whether Warcraft is a dark fantasy.

phrased like that, the answer is no. For when you say dark fantasy , there is a set genre already that our culture categorised. And Warcraft doesn’t fall into that sub genre category even though it is dark.

Most fantasy is dark, but warcraft’s sub category is epic fantasy. There are a lot of high fantasy in it. A lot of the setting, and races with their art and presentation is high.

Many of the stories, in fact most are quite dark. The world experiences a lot of dark things but they are always beaten and that’s not all their is to do. The tone isn’t that dark anyway relatively speaking though the stories are.

make sense?

[Broken Fox]

This quote perfectly shows that you dont know jackshit about warhammer lore.

warhammer is just an edgier LOTR

the chaos legion eradicated 10 planets with their super star destroyer omg so grim

[Orby]

A video game that does feel Dark Fantasy is the first Dragon Age. Dragon Age: Origins. Only the first, Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition moved to be a bit high fantasy with some dark fantasy tones. But the first one is certainly very high fantasy. the tone and aesthetic is very riddled in Dark Fantasy.

No, WoW isn't anywhere close to dark fantasy.
It has always tried to stay very neatly within the PG category.

Define PG? Is that like Children's' Fantasy, or YA Fantasy? IT could be argued, but I very much doubt its children's fantasy. Unles you feel WoW is on par with works like The Neverending Story, Alice in Wonderland, The Chronicles of Narnia, Peter Pan, Matilda, Coraline, Artemis Fowl? :P

[VladlTutushkin]

Dark fantasy is something like Dark Souls. Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, Warcraft.. Those there, while they sometimes have dark tones, Warhammer especially, they all borderline parodying themselves as they all have nonsensical moments of ridiculousness where they don't take themselves seriously.

Dark fantasy is something grim, bleak, and well, dark. Warcraft has a huge message of hope, companionship, and rising above adversity. None of that is dark.

Only problem is that they always fuck up delivering the message.

[shoc]

This is canon



is warcraft dark fantasy lmao

[Kathranis]

No. It's high fantasy, at times bordering on science fiction.

It brushes against dark fantasy and cosmic horror on occasion, but at no point does it actually step into those genres. It just adapts their aesthetics and tropes into its own high fantasy stories. And it does the same with other genres.

[huth]

Define PG? Is that like Children's' Fantasy, or YA Fantasy? IT could be argued, but I very much doubt its children's fantasy. Unles you feel WoW is on par with works like The Neverending Story, Alice in Wonderland, The Chronicles of Narnia, Peter Pan, Matilda, Coraline, Artemis Fowl? :P

It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is whether WoW fills the requirements for the rating.

Which it doesn't, given that PG is a movie rating and WoW is most definitely not a movie.

[Orby]

It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is whether WoW fills the requirements for the rating.

Which it doesn't, given that PG is a movie rating and WoW is most definitely not a movie.

I think you are preaching to the choir there dude. I agree with you. I was merely trying to get he guy I was replying to, to elaborate on what he means by saying WoW is PG. You should be telling this to the guy I was replying to lol.