Solution for M+ leavers....

[Tziva]

Had a failed +8 Necrotic Wake on an alt the other day, the ret paladin kept messing up (he got fixated first on third boss and didn't run away, died, we failed due to lack of dps) and he was also the one to leave after a few wipes.

Mildly frustrating since IMO at that level you should know the mechanics, but it does seem very common for the person who is the problem to also be the one to leave.

Yeah, I've also had this experience a lot, especially in lower keys.

One place I've seen it several times is the first boss in Plaguefall. Someone keeps killing themselves by eating his barfs, or consistently fucks up some other way, and then just gives up and leaves.

My favourite is this DOS run I had. It was a few months ago at this point, but I was doing a DOS with some friends on an alt, so it was something sub 10 level -- high enough you should be familiar with the mechanics but low enough that it wasn't a huge deal. We had a hunter in the party who had died like 12 fucking times before we even got to the second boss. No one had said anything to him or complained in party because whatever baby key, but he died again to Haywire or something and just silently dropped group. We ended up four manning the rest without him, and I want to say we even timed it.

I don't even give a fuck if someone in a low key has minimal experience and doesn't remember mechanics real well as long as they say something. If I have to give a one sentence tl;dr description before a boss or hard trash mob, I happily will. I don't take low level keys very seriously and they're supposed to be intro content - it's the place to learn! But no one ever says anything.

[Zantera]

Dying there due to fixate is .. interesting, when you have a paladin in there. Bubble and BoP counter all of the 2 fixate that could happen, even with low dps in a +8. Bad paladin, yeah.
I wonder how you wiped due to low dps tho - with the current free 197 gear you deal enough dmg to duo dps any boss in these key levels.
What was the general ST dps of the dps in group? Below 3000 is def a skillproblem that has to be fixed before going dungeons, at all.

I think the numbers were okay but the healer wasn't the best but also tyrannical on that boss with a dps down from the start, we eventually just got overrun basically. It was one of those alt runs where everyone's alt was just on the ilvl/performance for what you required but then going a dps down after 5-10 seconds on 3 pulls in a row was just what killed us. But yeah he could have bopped himself or whatever but I guess such basic mechanics are above people's heads.

[Necromantic]

But no one ever says anything.

I'm in the same boat as I will happily explain something but when your cohorts more often than not, ridicule and berate people who try to learn, I don't blame them at all for being leery of saying anything.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

*adds 'no leavers' to LFG title*


"Excellent. There is absolutely no way my key will be ruined."


*group wipes, healer leaves*


>:-O

[Tziva]

FWIW, I think "for completion" probably works better than "no leavers." Demanding no one leave can be bait for a bored troll, and it also can come off like you're promising no one leaves, rather than just asking that people stay to the end for vault credit. I don't think I've ever had anyone leave a "completion" run and I pretty regularly list keys a description that is like "aiming to time but completion if not" on alts who only care about the vault.

Maybe it's just my brain, but I tend to read a lot into the phrasing people put in their listings. I put "no leavers" kinda in the same camp as the "no baddies" listings I see; no one ever thinks they are That Guy™, so they think they are exempt. I also personally think listings phrased towards the positive ("need good dps") are more appealing than those listing the negative ("no shitters") even if they are saying the same thing. I also don't sign up for runs that sound vaguely threatening ("if you suck you'll be kicked" vs "must know mechanics") since it just makes me wary immediately that the party lead is an abrasive person or someone with low social skills who is going to cause conflict. Maybe that's me just reading into things way too much, but it tends to serve me pretty well in PuGs, and I do a lot of PuGs.

[kamuimac]

*adds 'no leavers' to LFG title*


"Excellent. There is absolutely no way my key will be ruined."


*group wipes, healer leaves*


>:-O

"no leavers" doesnt automaticly means "its a group that will spend there 2 hours and wipe on every single trash pack 3 times over"

[Alroxas]

*adds 'no leavers' to LFG title*
"Excellent. There is absolutely no way my key will be ruined."

Alternatively, why don't you just ask the group (prior to starting the key) if they are ok with finishing the key regardless of making the timer? Sure it would be a nice thing to be under timer but the goal is completion.

This way players can opt out prior to a key being downgraded. Some players don't necessarily want to spend more than the X allotted time per dungeon. Your time is valuable to you and so is their time valuable to them.

[Malania]

Had a failed +8 Necrotic Wake on an alt the other day, the ret paladin kept messing up (he got fixated first on third boss and didn't run away, died, we failed due to lack of dps) and he was also the one to leave after a few wipes.

Mildly frustrating since IMO at that level you should know the mechanics, but it does seem very common for the person who is the problem to also be the one to leave.

I've always assumed that if the one who keep's fucking up is the one who leaves, they're just embarrassed by repeatedly failing and trying to avoid being called out for being clueless on tactics. I mean god knows I've died on things that should have never killed me. (You're looking at the guy who had never died on Heigans dance in the entire WotLK and the one week I'm doing an Immortal run with pugs I actually fucked it up. The shame!) It's just a humiliating feeling knowing you were the weak link and feeling like everyone is better than you.

[erifwodahs]

Dying there due to fixate is .. interesting, when you have a paladin in there. Bubble and BoP counter all of the 2 fixate that could happen, even with low dps in a +8. Bad paladin, yeah.
I wonder how you wiped due to low dps tho - with the current free 197 gear you deal enough dmg to duo dps any boss in these key levels.
What was the general ST dps of the dps in group? Below 3000 is def a skillproblem that has to be fixed before going dungeons, at all.

Well, was it a bad paladin tho? That fixate is not supposed to happen. It's canceled by getting the second hook onto the boss so it could have been tanks mistake on boss position or bad aiming on the hook from other party members. I mean, paladin should have ran away, but someone else messed up.

- - - Updated - - -

Had a failed +8 Necrotic Wake on an alt the other day, the ret paladin kept messing up (he got fixated first on third boss and didn't run away, died, we failed due to lack of dps) and he was also the one to leave after a few wipes.

Mildly frustrating since IMO at that level you should know the mechanics, but it does seem very common for the person who is the problem to also be the one to leave.

It's odd and sounds one sided. So you wiped few more times after? Who was at fault there? Because that fixate is not supposed to happen, if it does, maybe others don't know the mechanics either?

- - - Updated - - -

i guess you've never healed pugs then in lower keys...



lol... people are very bad at the weekly key level... i can mass dispel bursting but i can't do anything if people are just ignoring explosives and are taking damage so i have to cast heals... i can't even look away for 2 seconds or someone is fucking dying...

I try not to do lower keys because this exact reason. If my friends are not there to carry my alts ass, I won't bother. That's why I said it bad move by a tank. But it's certainly not impossible.

[Bloodyleech]

Well, was it a bad paladin tho? That fixate is not supposed to happen. It's canceled by getting the second hook onto the boss so it could have been tanks mistake on boss position or bad aiming on the hook from other party members. I mean, paladin should have ran away, but someone else messed up.

Doesn't matter if something else got messed up. It's the paladin's job to deal with this mechanic if it happens, no matter what else happened, at all. There is no "but" at all in this case.
In Pugs you always have to expect that some mechanics are not done, so you always have to play around it, if you want or not, it's a simple fact.

[erifwodahs]

Doesn't matter if something else got messed up. It's the paladin's job to deal with this mechanic if it happens, no matter what else happened, at all. There is no "but" at all in this case.
In Pugs you always have to expect that some mechanics are not done, so you always have to play around it, if you want or not, it's a simple fact.

So first person messing up was ok, but second is "bad".
There is certainly a "but" here.
Someone took extra puddles/puddle you spawned on the broker boss and you exploded on party/died? Is that your fault?
Someone pulls a pack without control of inspired mob - is that healer/tank fault now?
Someone butt pulls pack and messes up pride timings, is that now a tank fault.
Some asshat drops an orb on in some stupid location on 3rd boss in SoA, is that a tanks fault if he can't soak all of the balls up now?

You can deal with other failures, but not being able to deal with it doesn't make you any worse than the person who messed it up. Most of the time it's damage control anyway, so if you can't deal with it, it's not your balme.

[Rageonit]

So first person messing up was ok, but second is "bad".
There is certainly a "but" here.
Someone took extra puddles/puddle you spawned on the broker boss and you exploded on party/died? Is that your fault?
Someone pulls a pack without control of inspired mob - is that healer/tank fault now?
Someone butt pulls pack and messes up pride timings, is that now a tank fault.
Some asshat drops an orb on in some stupid location on 3rd boss in SoA, is that a tanks fault if he can't soak all of the balls up now?

You can deal with other failures, but not being able to deal with it doesn't make you any worse than the person who messed it up. Most of the time it's damage control anyway, so if you can't deal with it, it's not your balme.

Thing is, it's super easy to deal with fixate.
Kinda tougher to deal with no portal on the broker boss (tho some could immune it).
And for the record, both players were bad - or rather, both players made mistakes. I'd never call a player in a low key "bad" - chaces are, they are still learning the encounter (and sometimes even the game), if they are doing a low key. You could always try to invite 1.5rio + to your 8 key if you want to avoid the problem

[Bloodyleech]

So first person messing up was ok, but second is "bad".
There is certainly a "but" here.
Someone took extra puddles/puddle you spawned on the broker boss and you exploded on party/died? Is that your fault?
Someone pulls a pack without control of inspired mob - is that healer/tank fault now?
Someone butt pulls pack and messes up pride timings, is that now a tank fault.
Some asshat drops an orb on in some stupid location on 3rd boss in SoA, is that a tanks fault if he can't soak all of the balls up now?

You can deal with other failures, but not being able to deal with it doesn't make you any worse than the person who messed it up. Most of the time it's damage control anyway, so if you can't deal with it, it's not your balme.

No, the first person messing up was not ok, but not using your toolkit is bad. Don't try to twist my words.

1. A mechanical failure by a single person leading to a wipe, what could you've done to not cause the wipe? Nothing.
2. Depends on the situation. Are cd's used, adds kited away from inspired? Whole parties failure, everyone got some cc to care for the inspired. Potentially not using cds, too. Group as a whole could have saved this.
3. The tank could use another route, skipping stuff he would've pulled otherwise. Tank could save this.
4. Other people can and should soak them too if needed. Immunities or dmg reduce and go for it. Group could have saved this.

It's all about the group. If someone does bad things, another one has to fix it. If this one doesn't use his classes mechanics, it's his followup failure. If you can't deal with stuff, obviously you can't be at fault.

[Rageonit]

As for the solution for M+ leavers...
I think I'd be fine with a simple "leave" counter, with no game repercussions what so ever (best not absolute numbers, but rather percentage-based). Also, group leader should have an option to disband the run with a majority vote (and no consequences, obviously). Players could deal with those numbers however they see fit.

[Bloodyleech]

As for the solution for M+ leavers...
I think I'd be fine with a simple "leave" counter, with no game repercussions what so ever (best not absolute numbers, but rather percentage-based). Also, group leader should have an option to disband the run with a majority vote (and no consequences, obviously). Players could deal with those numbers however they see fit.

This is actually a little solution that coooould work, I like.
People who leave regulary have a high leaver%, people who just leave out of RL reasons or something usually do not have a high leaver%. Could see it working.

[Temp name]

Hah, blaming the healer for the shitty tank mechanics. I've met your type in groups before. Good times.

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah, that's pretty fucking horrible.

{s}
But if the healer had been better......

Or if the healer had communicated better...

Certainly wasn't the tank's fault
{/s}

Tank was shit, I didn't deny that. But instead of leaving he could've, you know.. Stayed and finished the dungeon? That pull is doable on a +14 tyran week.

[kamuimac]

This is actually a little solution that coooould work, I like.
People who leave regulary have a high leaver%, people who just leave out of RL reasons or something usually do not have a high leaver%. Could see it working.

and how you decided if a person is a "leaver" ? because what people would start to do is just to fake dc and log in to another alt.

dont know how you but i have 4 max level alts capable of runing +15 - and then what when i fake dc ? if "you" leave first its you who would get "counted"

[erifwodahs]

No, the first person messing up was not ok, but not using your toolkit is bad. Don't try to twist my words.

1. A mechanical failure by a single person leading to a wipe, what could you've done to not cause the wipe? Nothing.
2. Depends on the situation. Are cd's used, adds kited away from inspired? Whole parties failure, everyone got some cc to care for the inspired. Potentially not using cds, too. Group as a whole could have saved this.
3. The tank could use another route, skipping stuff he would've pulled otherwise. Tank could save this.
4. Other people can and should soak them too if needed. Immunities or dmg reduce and go for it. Group could have saved this.

It's all about the group. If someone does bad things, another one has to fix it. If this one doesn't use his classes mechanics, it's his followup failure.

1. Not to soak the puddles when you don't have to so the person who gets bomb can get to it in time.
2. Not whole party failure. Person who does the pull. Could be tank with bad route, could be dps who likes pull without looking at the route. Group might have been able to save that but failure comes from initial fuck up. Damage control is not always possible.
3. So tank COULD have saved this, but someone else messed up. And it's situational if you even can.
4. So you rely on someone covering your ass and if not - they fail? I would love to see that in a high key.

Can they? Yes. But OP put ALL THE BLAME with "no buts" on paladin, when in reality he fucked up, but only because someone fucked up first.
Damage control is a trait of a good group, especially where for some reason you get some stupid rng and things don't go according to plan, but expecting others to make up for your mistakes is not a good mentality.

[fooxy]

Would they be able to add a string that was a counter for every time a character has left a M+ before it has finished. Then be able to track this counter through their API with raider.io or the new rating system in 9.1.

Character - Tøxíc
Rating - 750
Abandoned - 40

Then when you're searching in LFG you can see how many mythic plus instances the player has left before the dungeon was finished, based on this you have a choice to either invite them or not.

Then have the counter reset on Seasons for Mythic plus, I know this isn't really punishing them for leaving but this might give the community a choice to invite them or not. If you decided to invite someone who's left around 30-40 times I think that's on the player to accept that risk that this guy might leave.

[Bloodyleech]

and how you decided if a person is a "leaver" ? because what people would start to do is just to fake dc and log in to another alt.

dont know how you but i have 4 max level alts capable of runing +15 - and then what when i fake dc ? if "you" leave first its you who would get "counted"

Everyone who leaves first gets a point into the leaver%. If you are not regulary leaving, who the F will care? If you are a regulary leaver, your will leaver% will be high enough that people can see it.
Same ruleset with DCs - if you regulary DC in a run so that it has to be ended, your leaver% goes up, if a Dc once in what.. 200? runs happens, who the F will care about your very low leaver%?
If there is a player who's just afking or whatever, group votes to end the run. Not sure how this would be implemented then - it's not a perfect system, but better than all the systems anyone in this thread posted.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Not to soak the puddles when you don't have to so the person who gets bomb can get to it in time.
2. Not whole party failure. Person who does the pull. Could be tank with bad route, could be dps who likes pull without looking at the route. Group might have been able to save that but failure comes from initial fuck up. Damage control is not always possible.
3. So tank COULD have saved this, but someone else messed up. And it's situational if you even can.
4. So you rely on someone covering your ass and if not - they fail? I would love to see that in a high key.

Can they? Yes. But OP put ALL THE BLAME with "no buts" on paladin, when in reality he fucked up, but only because someone fucked up first.
Damage control is a trait of a good group, especially where for some reason you get some stupid rng and things don't go according to plan, but expecting others to make up for your mistakes is not a good mentality.

I am NOT talking about keys in the higher range (16+). In those keys it's all about timing - if you fail a simple mechanic, you are completely at fault.

1. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Can't fix this, obviously this persons fault.
2. What keylevels are we talking about here? Up to the 15s range something like this can be fixed by any competent group that utilizes their abilities. If the group fails the utilize their kit, it's the whole groups followup fault.
3. Yeah, that's why I used "could". The failure in itself was made by the person who pulled. Said nothing different, just that it could be saved.
4. No, I expect people to do mechanics. Doesn't matter who failed before. Group has to save it. If the group is not able to save it, it's the one players fault. If the group could have saved it, it's the groups failure for not dealing with it.

The initial fk ups are a thing, ofc - but the group can (almost) always save it if they play well and use their kit. Oneshot mechanics/trash that is really hard to deal with if pulled on accident are a complete other thing (or pulled right before low life enemies are killed -> bolstering).

We do not know who made the first mistake, it doesn't even matter. If the group can save it AND it doesn't risk the key, it.. happened. Just move on then. In the end it's about completing the run in time, generally it's not important if you have 2 minutes or 8 minutes left on the timer. In this case it's both players fault. One should have used the gripple on boss, the other should have used immunities. And as I'm a vivid "learn your class before going into dungeons" supporter, the pala who's not using his freakin basic toolkit, is the one who fked up more than the other player for me.