What's Happening in UK? Elections!

[Demolitia]

Nobody said it was going to be easy.

I think lots of independence supporters believe in unicorns, just as many Brexit supporters believed in 2016. A scottish independence "might" be beneficial in the long run but I think most people don't realise how difficult it will be to achieve. The divorce from the UK alone will be a nightmare Sturgeon probably won't see through in her career.

[JohnBrown1917]

I think lots of independence supporters believe in unicorns, just as many Brexit supporters believed in 2016. A scottish independence "might" be beneficial in the long run but I think most people don't realise how difficult it will be to achieve. The divorce from the UK alone will be a nightmare Sturgeon probably won't see through in her career.

That is what means to be a democracy, to be allowed to make your own decisions without a higher force preventing you from doing so.
Its the right to self-determination.

[tehdang]

Working class has not nothing to do with whether you manual labour or not, it has everything to do with your income and having to work for a living.


But both the conservative far right(Tories and US Republicans) and liberals are terrible at actually understanding who is part of the working class, so this is no surpise.

I see no general acceptance of this definition. If Labour had lost college-educated professionals in London, but those not having yet attained high pay, nobody would say that also was Labour losing the working class.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Indeed, I thought working class was rightly used specifically to separate out manual labor jobs, or jobs in industry that require short tradesman training and internship, from those of college-educated professionals. Whatever can you gain by changing the definition so? I see you’re intent on mocking them, perhaps for their politically choices these days who knows, but there can be no real gain by twisting the definition for your purposes.

If you're doing a paid job, and if you lost that job you'd need to get another one to provide an income within a year at most, then you're working class in my view. The notion of middle class being a group of working class people that have ended up in fairly decent, reasonably well paid work is absurd to me. It feels like a means to split the working people and set them up against each other; the "middle class" can look down on the menial types below them. The "true working class" can attack the "middle class" for being out of touch with reality.

It's all of us against the 1%, from where I'm sitting. The fuckers that pay wages that people can't live on while paying nothing into society. The landlords that do very little but suck money out of the people that have to rent from them. The people that buy politicians so they can give them public contracts and favourable laws. Forget figuring out how we're split into smaller chunks, think about us as one giant lump and imagine how shit-scared that makes the 1%.

[Kallisto]

Doesnt matter if they check all the boxes the dutch and the danes will oppose it because scotland joining the eu cost money. spain will oppose it because they fear the Catalans will be inspired by the scots and Macron will likely not survive the 2022 elections and LePen is stauncly anti EU. I have zero confidence that scotland will be able to join the EU in quick matter.

Can we stop with the Spain argument. Spain made it clear they will not stop Scotland as long as the process is legal within UK laws. So having Boris agreeing either willingly or forced will be enough for Spain. Also giving Britain a bloodied nose is always something spain loves to do.

When it comes to LePen it is always the same thing. Those that love her and support her will stand by her, but everyone else will go against her even if it means holding their nose on whoever is opposing her. She needs at least 40% support by herself to be in with a chance of winning.

Dutch and Danes don't even care.

[JohnBrown1917]

I see no general acceptance of this definition. If Labour had lost college-educated professionals in London, but those not having yet attained high pay, nobody would say that also was Labour losing the working class.

You not seeing it is not my problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class


You really think manual labour is the only form of low-skilled work or low paying work you can do? Because a lot of people in trade jobs who make more than your average worker would like to talk about that.

[tehdang]

You not seeing it is not my problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class

You really think manual labour is the only form of low-skilled work or low paying work you can do? Because a lot of people in trade jobs who make more than your average worker would like to talk about that.

Notice “especially in manual-labour occupations and industrial work.“ And of course blue collar. And totally lacking “your income” definition. Yeah, I’m happy where I’m at.

And if Labour’s defense is attacking on semantics of the working class people that rejected them, they’re in worse shape than I previously imagined.

[JohnBrown1917]

Notice “especially in manual-labour occupations and industrial work.“ And of course blue collar. And totally lacking “your income” definition. Yeah, I’m happy where I’m at.

So just going to ignore the rest of the article, eh?

And if Labour’s defense is attacking on semantics of the working class people that rejected them, they’re in worse shape than I previously imagined.

I'm not defending labor, your definition of working class people is just laughably wrong because it excludes a ton of low paying and low-skilled jobs. does not include teacher, nurses, child-care workers, waiters/waitress and etc.
Everybody who has to live paycheck to paycheck is working class, no exceptions.


That the blairites(and tories) don't give a fuck about the working class was already obvious to everybody who was alive during Blair. But you lot just think that working class only refers to rural white people for some fucking reason.

[DKjaigen]

Can we stop with the Spain argument. Spain made it clear they will not stop Scotland as long as the process is legal within UK laws. So having Boris agreeing either willingly or forced will be enough for Spain. Also giving Britain a bloodied nose is always something spain loves to do.

Yes spain made it clear. As if the words of politicians should be taken as an ironclad promise.

When it comes to LePen it is always the same thing. Those that love her and support her will stand by her, but everyone else will go against her even if it means holding their nose on whoever is opposing her. She needs at least 40% support by herself to be in with a chance of winning.

Have you seen the state of France lately?

Dutch and Danes don't even care.

I suggest you pay attention then. more then once Rutte has blocked the ambitions of the french and germans. The netherlands are basically the third power in EU after germany and france. And the Dutch really dislike the thought of throwing money to the scots.

[MCMLXXXII]

Yes spain made it clear. As if the words of politicians should be taken as an ironclad promise.


Have you seen the state of France lately?



I suggest you pay attention then. more then once Rutte has blocked the ambitions of the french and germans. The netherlands are basically the third power in EU after germany and france. And the Dutch really dislike the thought of throwing money to the scots.

The Dutch disliked throwing money to Italy because their black economy was as big as their normal economy. Scotland is totally different. You should provide a citation where Rutte said he didn't want Scotland to join the EU.

[Crispin]

Doesnt matter if they check all the boxes the dutch and the danes will oppose it because scotland joining the eu cost money. spain will oppose it because they fear the Catalans will be inspired by the scots and Macron will likely not survive the 2022 elections and LePen is stauncly anti EU. I have zero confidence that scotland will be able to join the EU in quick matter.

I havent read or seen anything about danes opposing Scotland joining. News articles are mainly about Boris' comical position to reject the Scottish a referendum, considering his rethoric the last 4 years, in regars to Brexit. Apparently the Scots want control of their border aswell, and Boris' can either show how much of a hypocrite he is, or agree to the referendum.

The frugal four were heavily opposed to picking up a loan for southern European countries. It was never about new members. You seem to ignore that western european countries, voted yes when eastern european countries applied. I can't imagine that Scotland will not see any issue in this regard.

[SMCOut]

To get a successful indyref2 Nicola Sturgeon needs to fulfill criteria.

Which means agreeing to exit terms before a referendum is held, so that the Scottish people know 100% what they are voting for.

That alone will take years.

If a referendum is then held, most Scottish people seem to prefer being part of the United Kingdom and are likely to vote no to joining the EU anyway.

All in all I'd say the chances of Scotland being an independent member of the EU is less than nothing.

And even if they do, England seemingly gains massive advantage of creating favourable conditions for Scottish business to move to.

Scotland then becomes a financial net loss to the EU, which will need to give funds to prop up Scotland in general, all the while English tax revenue increases from Scottish business.

England has played a pretty clever game in all honesty. They are in a win position whatever the result.

[Crispin]

To get a successful indyref2 Nicola Sturgeon needs to fulfill criteria.

Which means agreeing to exit terms before a referendum is held, so that the Scottish people know 100% what they are voting for.

That alone will take years.

If a referendum is then held, most Scottish people seem to prefer being part of the United Kingdom and are likely to vote no to joining the EU anyway.

All in all I'd say the chances of Scotland being an independent member of the EU is less than nothing.

And even if they do, England seemingly gains massive advantage of creating favourable conditions for Scottish business to move to.

Scotland then becomes a financial net loss to the EU, which will need to give funds to prop up Scotland in general, all the while English tax revenue increases from Scottish business.

England has played a pretty clever game in all honesty. They are in a win position whatever the result.

Yet another burner?

You're highly speculating. Here's a different one. English companies can move to Scotland, to gain access to the EU single Market, far more profitabel than the English one, which will grow even smaller without Scotland, should be a no-brainer.

The EU can easily handle Scotland, even if they're a net loss, heck if true the English should be excited to get rid of them. I'd say it's about time for Scottish freedom and control of their border! They're ruled by politicians they did not elect.. wtf?

[Slant]

While the EU as a whole is probably quite open to the idea of welcoming Scotland, there are a few very real challenges ahead for Scotland before this happens.
Scotland will need a unanimous council vote before the accession talks even begin.
Spain will want to make sure that Scotland leaves the UK in fully constitutional manner, to avoid domestic issues in catalonia and the basque country.
Then it will need to settle a divorce with the UK and sort out its trade relationship, borders and create a central bank and somehow come up with a currency.
The there is a genuine concern from the "frugals" not to have another net beneficiary in the club. Scotland will have to somehow prove that they are not going to be another subsidy black hole.
I think it's safe to say that Sturgeon will not get a fast track promise, or a blank check to join. I'm sure they will join at some point after leaving the UK, but it's going to be quite a shitshow until this happens, if Brexit and the irish border have taught us anything.

Edit: an article on politico today on exactly this.
https://www.politico.eu/article/hast...uropean-union/

https://www.reservebank.scot/#gsc.tab=0

Scotland... is... a... real... country. People have got to stop thinking of Scotland as like... a district of the UK. Of course there are going to be issues that need to be addressed. But unlike, say, Serbia, who needs to solve its daddy issues with Putin and... oh, the fact that Serbia hates everyone else on the Balkan and thinks anything north of Greece should really be their vassals, Scotland is in a very good position to resolve all those issues within a year and then get going with the accession.

About beneficiary or not, Scotland is hardly going to be a beggar like those Eastern European countries. That's just English propaganda to make themselves feel better.

[DKjaigen]

The Dutch disliked throwing money to Italy because their black economy was as big as their normal economy. Scotland is totally different. You should provide a citation where Rutte said he didn't want Scotland to join the EU.

The dutch also disliked throwing money to greece and spain for that matter. So when it is revealed that the only reason the scots are joining is to get a load of those sweet sweet eu subsidies i doubt that it will go over well. Citation is not needed if you look at their stance on such things.

- - - Updated - - -

I havent read or seen anything about danes opposing Scotland joining. News articles are mainly about Boris' comical position to reject the Scottish a referendum, considering his rethoric the last 4 years, in regars to Brexit. Apparently the Scots want control of their border aswell, and Boris' can either show how much of a hypocrite he is, or agree to the referendum.

The frugal four were heavily opposed to picking up a loan for southern European countries. It was never about new members. You seem to ignore that western european countries, voted yes when eastern european countries applied. I can't imagine that Scotland will not see any issue in this regard.

That was years ago. Several financial crisis later in greece , spain and italy and the frugal 4 have become much more cautious. Not to mention that the eastern countires (that are recent additions to the eu) are quite a headache for the eu as they shirk from their responsibilties

[MCMLXXXII]

The dutch also disliked throwing money to greece and spain for that matter. So when it is revealed that the only reason the scots are joining is to get a load of those sweet sweet eu subsidies i doubt that it will go over well. Citation is not needed if you look at their stance on such things.

- - - Updated - - -



That was years ago. Several financial crisis later in greece , spain and italy and the frugal 4 have become much more cautious. Not to mention that the eastern countires (that are recent additions to the eu) are quite a headache for the eu as they shirk from their responsibilties

You're actually comparing Scotland to Greece, Italy and Spain? Lol.

[sircaw]

I am all for Scotland having a second referendum, i think if the numbers are there, then it's the right thing to do.

Saying that, oh boy, there are so many things to consider.

The currency.
The Nhs
The barnette formula.
Pensions
BBC, viewership, license's etc, the hint is in the name,
Nhs Perscriptions it's free in Scotland, will that remain? who pays for this.

there are probably a gazillion more things too.

People bitch here so much about England leaving the eu and how terrible it is, well what about the following quote.

Economists say the impact of leaving UK’s common market would hit two to three times as hard as leaving EU

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ecast-suggests


The UK props up Scotland's public spending, are the Eu going to cover this.

It seems like Scotland would be a drain on the Eu rather than adding to it.

Having a glance through the article below, it does not look so rosy.

So by all means, if they want their referendum then have it.

https://www.deliveringforscotland.go...%20coronavirus.

[DKjaigen]

You're actually comparing Scotland to Greece, Italy and Spain? Lol.

Yes because the dutch are not waiting for another subsidy sponge. If the Scots are going to enter the EU they need to proof that they are economically viable. and that will take years.

[sircaw]

Yes because the dutch are not waiting for another subsidy sponge. If the Scots are going to enter the EU they need to proof that they are economically viable. and that will take years.

Exactly

Tax revenue generated in Scotland amounts to about £66 billion, including North Sea oil revenue, but it benefits from about £81 billion in public spending. That means Scotland benefits from an additional £15 billion public spending than it puts in.

If Scotland leaves the UK, who is going to pay that 15 Billion. I can tell you now, its not going to be England.

In 2020 the UK Government guaranteed £8.6 billion of additional funding to help the Scottish Government to respond to coronavirus

.

It just keeps adding up

[JohnBrown1917]

Yes spain made it clear. As if the words of politicians should be taken as an ironclad promise.


Have you seen the state of France lately?



I suggest you pay attention then. more then once Rutte has blocked the ambitions of the french and germans. The netherlands are basically the third power in EU after germany and france. And the Dutch really dislike the thought of throwing money to the scots.

No, we do not. You really think proper terms won't be set out? Who is to say Rutte will stay in power for the next decade?