Is The Weight Tanks Hold in M+ Good Design?

[Mystikal]

I guess there would be more tanks, but it's still team effort. Some pulls I do are impossible without support of my team. As a tank I have to be aware of routes, my cds and healer/dps cds at all times, but I rely on them to press the non-dps buttons to save my ass too when I am out of CDs and they certainly must know what to interrupt too.
My gripe with tanking is how little damage we do and how squishy we are now. It's just not that fun

I don't disagree with your points about damage, but the main 'breaker' of keys is the route. Accidentally pulled one mob too many? Group bails. Not got prideful at the exact right time? Group bails.

I've yet to see a tank or healer bail on a group if dps is too low, or a key interrupt gets missed. It just gets accepted, and you try again. But, for some reason, even if the key only just started 2 minutes ago, if your route isn't perfect, people declare the run a failure and bail. It's exhausting, and an awful lot of pressure.

I note an earlier poster stated that routes changed in BfA, but I had two routes for each dungeon, one with the seasonal and one without, and it was never an issue. So the routes allowed were obviously far more generous in BfA than in SL.

[Dakara]

I used to do a lot of Tanking in the pre-M+ era, and can recall when Blizzard decided to make tanking more interesting for players who were getting bored with it. This was the beginnings of Active mitigation. Previously we just held threat and used our big CD's on certain boss abilities. Mitigation wasn't part of the rotation.

Anyway, when that happened, suddenly there were a lot of bad tanks getting wrecked because they weren't maintaining good uptime on their defensives.... over time, there were less tanks overall.

Now, with M+, Tanks need to know routes (which change with affixes) and how to adjust on the fly to accomodate for mistakes as to not waste Prides.
Again, we saw plenty of "Bad Tanks" who aren't necessarily bad at Tanking, just bad at M+ routing.
Then over time, we see less Tanks as people give up due to the responsibility and or/the abuse when they get it wrong.

So no, I don't think it's a good design.
I think it's great for those who enjoy it, but it's made tanking a real niche which hurts the game overall.

[Wuusah]

Imo there is a lot of wrong with what you said, so I'll break it down:

Your M+ Group lives and dies by your tank. Frankly trying to get to 20+ on all dungeons just burned me out and I've been sitting on 18s with barely a will to log on. The tank needs to set the pace of the run, establish the route....fix the route when someone screws it up, keep himself alive all while optimizing his own damage to make the run go quicker and not lose aggro, while establishing positioning. You're also a huge source of crowd control.

While it is true that the tank controls the path, he doesn't really set the pace. You can only be as fast as your group dps allows you to be. If all your dps players hold their cooldowns back, then your tank is going to use more defensive cooldowns because the fight will take longer. And after that he won't be able to set a fast pace because he's all out of cooldowns. The whole group sets the pace. It is the job of the tank to keep track of that, though. The thing is, optimizing tank dps is not very difficult compared to optimizing the dps of a dps role. It's not really overwhelming to do all that in addition to doing your rotation because your rotation is simple by design so that you can focus on other stuff.

I played mostly my healer in BFA, and sure while it's a thankless role, all I really had to do was sit back and not die, naturally when you get to higher keys players get better at avoiding damage. Hell there have been times I'd die as a healer on Tyranical bosses at 50% and we(they) still manage to pull it off.

If that is your idea of playing a healer, then you are a shitty healer. A healer should also be doing dps, CC, interrupt if possible, deal with M+ affixes like Explosive, etc.

Healer dies you pinch your butt cheeks and avoid damage till he comes back. DPS dies you roll your eyes and keep it moving knowing some time needs to be made up. Tank dies shit automatically hits the fan.

Well yeah, but tanks are usually also the last ones who die because they are tanky. Tanks die when they mess up their active mitigation. A tank who messes up active mitigation is like a dps who just presses random buttons to deal damage. It's a player who hasn't learned the basics of their spec.

I think my biggest beef is simply needing to be the guy that knows the route, and because M+ is timed it's not like you can take a breathe and ask your teammates for directions. Some of my more prefered dungeons to run are the ones where the route is damn near impossible to screw up like Theater of Pain. In Legion the routes were freaking obvious, if you could walk around a mob....you did, and it's not like Prideful was a thing.

Everyone should learn routes, not just tanks. If a DPS doesn't know dungeon routes, then that dps won't know when to use cooldowns. Sure, it's more on the tank because he's the one who pulls the group through that route, but I see it like this: A dps waits for hours to get that elusive group invite. A tank gets in instantly. That time you save, you can put into learning the dungeon route.

Almost feel like just swapping to my healer sitting back and enjoying the ride.

Again, if your playing healer is just "sitting back and enjoying the ride" then you're a shitty healer.

[Kolvarg]

Yes and no.

Because ultimately, the tank being the one dictating the route and making the calls is not there by design, it's a social expectation created by the playerbase.


It might be more straightforward for the tank to be doing that, since ideally he's the one going in first, but for any group using voice it's perfectly feasible to have a dps making the calls and telling the tank what to pull.

[chiddie]

A lot of the non-tank replies in here are glossing over the requirement for the tank to know the myriad routes for each dungeon and each set of affixes, where applicable. I just switched to tanking in BfA, and it was a lot easier then when the route was either up to +9 or +10 and over for the seasonal affix. In SL, the route can change weekly, needing you to memorise a whole extra bunch of routes, on top of everything else you're supposed to do.

I find it funny that a lot of people say "it's a team effort", and yet universally, the tank must know the routes. I think there'd be a lot more tanks if the dps or healers also took responsibility for the routes.

Honestly, I don’t even know why people still bother to play a tank. The ONLY advantage is insta-grouping.

But the disadvantages for me override this advantages. It’s really more a job than a game.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes and no.

Because ultimately, the tank being the one dictating the route and making the calls is not there by design, it's a social expectation created by the playerbase.


It might be more straightforward for the tank to be doing that, since ideally he's the one going in first, but for any group using voice it's perfectly feasible to have a dps making the calls and telling the tank what to pull.

No. It’s created by the game, with the playerbase just adapting.

Get rid of % and/or the timer and you’ll see tanks number going up in seconds.

It’s just too stressful being a tank nowadays.

[erifwodahs]

Then over time, we see less Tanks as people give up due to the responsibility and or/the abuse when they get it wrong.

Dude, several times I was called "trash tank" for doing pulls where I assumed (my mistake) that DPS know that they have hard cc/interrupts and other spells than just damage available. Most infuriating thing is that it's on low keys (15s) where some guy who only does 14s -15s start talking shit about you. Ofc. it's rare, just I can remember it better thank people who at the end of the run say "nice tank/awesome group" which is way more often than some trashtalk. Ofc you get some actual toxic people every now and then but I just bail in that case, someone smacktalking is a shake off thing, but being in a group where someone tries to fuck with your head - f that.

[shise]

Spot on.

Like with most things, modern Blizzard does things without properly testing them, they just happen.
So changing this is not going to be easy. The way M+ is created, it can only be this way: the tank leads and manages all.

My idea of how keys should be in order to make them exciting and far more MMORPG relevant.


M+ should be harder, RBG based and without a timer.

When you use the key you create an ID. This ID will generate 4 mechanics randomly picked out of 40 existing options (for example) Those mechanics will affect differently the bosses, or the trash, your DPS or your healing, create some debuffs, you name it.(very similar to affixes anyway)

No timer, as dealing with the randomly generated combination of mechanics will be complex enough. This means that the whole group will have to communicate and deal with everything together, instead of relying on the tank to figure everything else, because "gogogo no time push"

A competitive factor could be adding more layers of mechanics.. so maybe a +1 adds one mechanic, +2 adds 2 mechanics, +3,+4+,5+6 etc.. as far as you think your team can handle. You do know the mechanics, but the one´s you´ll deal with will be randomly combined.

This would require team work, leading skills and far more involvement from all roles in the group, because you don´t know if suddenly CC will be very important, or damage mitigation, or AOE. This factor also keeps runs exciting, again, you never now what you will be facing, which also helps to cut down the metas.


RNG is a pillar of MMORPGs and it forces all party members to engage in dungeons or fights to solve potential situations... quick matches do not and are they are not a part of MMORPGs

[chiddie]

Spot on.

Like with most things, modern Blizzard does things without properly testing them, they just happen.
So changing this is not going to be easy. The way M+ is created, it can only be this way: the tank leads and manages all.

My idea of how keys should be in order to make them exciting and far more MMORPG relevant.


M+ should be harder, RBG based and without a timer.

When you use the key you create an ID. This ID will generate 4 mechanics randomly picked out of 40 existing options (for example) Those mechanics will affect differently the bosses, or the trash, your DPS or your healing, create some debuffs, you name it.(very similar to affixes anyway)

No timer, as dealing with the randomly generated combination of mechanics will be complex enough. This means that the whole group will have to communicate and deal with everything together, instead of relying on the tank to figure everything else, because "gogogo no time push"

A competitive factor could be adding more layers of mechanics.. so maybe a +1 adds one mechanic, +2 adds 2 mechanics, +3,+4+,5+6 etc.. as far as you think your team can handle. You do know the mechanics, but the one´s you´ll deal with will be randomly combined.

This would require team work, leading skills and far more involvement from all roles in the group, because you don´t know if suddenly CC will be very important, or damage mitigation, or AOE.


RNG is a pillar of MMORPGs and it forces all party members to engage in dungeons or fights to solve potential situations... quick matches do not and are they are not a part of MMORPGs

Interesting ideas but not going to happen, it’s now clear that the only way that Blizzard has to measure skill and properly reward it is a timer for everything.

They just can’t think about anything else.

You see this already with embedded rio, no one wants to play Tyr weeks for obvious reasons and instead of fixing it they will adjust the score basing on tyr/forti weeks also so that you are also forced to “have fun” in unfun weeks.

[Bagrod]

People's expectations were just one reason, over all lack of satisfaction was another. Essentially I'm just a DPS with defensive cooldowns, it's 2 different mindsets. I don't really ever want to have to care about my DPS when I choose the tank role, that was another reason, might as well just play DPS, especially as a Blood tank.

Well, you can feel that way. And I do agree, I do not like it, that I as a tank have to care too much about my DPS. But that has really nothing to do with the issue that people expect the tank to know the way for different weeks (which is an okay Expectation towards the tank, as it is an okay expectation towards the DPS to know which Spells and Mobs to interrrupt in specific dungeons / weeks)

A lot of the non-tank replies in here are glossing over the requirement for the tank to know the myriad routes for each dungeon and each set of affixes, where applicable. I just switched to tanking in BfA, and it was a lot easier then when the route was either up to +9 or +10 and over for the seasonal affix. In SL, the route can change weekly, needing you to memorise a whole extra bunch of routes, on top of everything else you're supposed to do.

I find it funny that a lot of people say "it's a team effort", and yet universally, the tank must know the routes. I think there'd be a lot more tanks if the dps or healers also took responsibility for the routes.

Well, for the Myriad of Routes: There is an addon that helps with it. And to be honest, if you dont play MDI, you do not need to adapt 90% of the route every week. Sometimes there are slight changes, but the majority of the routes stays quite stable (at least from my perspective as a tank).

And to be honest: Especially in PUGs it absolutelty is the fact that the Tank must know the rout. How else are you going to do it? Let the DPS pull and hope thats where the tank wanted to go? Ask "Which pack next?" and hope for a quick answer from the group?

As a tank, you set the pace and you chose the route. As a DPS, you have different tasks in the dungeon.

The only thing that could change that, would be if Blizzard desinged only railroaded dungeons, with no different Patchs / ways to skip certain mobs. But that would be really really boring in my opinion.

So yes, chosing to play tank means chosing to set the route and the pace for the group. If you play with friends, you can decide to learn the best routes together. In PUGs I would not count on that.

How did I do it as a tank:

I just ran some lower M+ already with the "right" routs to get used to certain standars (e.g. do some more trash before you move on to Hakkar in DOS) and then stepped first foot into +10s and announced that I am not used to all routes perfectly, and that was fine for basically every single gorup I joined / created.

[chiddie]

Well, you can feel that way. And I do agree, I do not like it, that I as a tank have to care too much about my DPS. But that has really nothing to do with the issue that people expect the tank to know the way for different weeks (which is an okay Expectation towards the tank, as it is an okay expectation towards the DPS to know which Spells and Mobs to interrrupt in specific dungeons / weeks)




Well, for the Myriad of Routes: There is an addon that helps with it. And to be honest, if you dont play MDI, you do not need to adapt 90% of the route every week. Sometimes there are slight changes, but the majority of the routes stays quite stable (at least from my perspective as a tank).

And to be honest: Especially in PUGs it absolutelty is the fact that the Tank must know the rout. How else are you going to do it? Let the DPS pull and hope thats where the tank wanted to go? Ask "Which pack next?" and hope for a quick answer from the group?

As a tank, you set the pace and you chose the route. As a DPS, you have different tasks in the dungeon.

The only thing that could change that, would be if Blizzard desinged only railroaded dungeons, with no different Patchs / ways to skip certain mobs. But that would be really really boring in my opinion.

So yes, chosing to play tank means chosing to set the route and the pace for the group. If you play with friends, you can decide to learn the best routes together. In PUGs I would not count on that.

How did I do it as a tank:

I just ran some lower M+ already with the "right" routs to get used to certain standars (e.g. do some more trash before you move on to Hakkar in DOS) and then stepped first foot into +10s and announced that I am not used to all routes perfectly, and that was fine for basically every single gorup I joined / created.

The point is that the tank role requires an amount of study behind that should not be necessary in a game. That’s why there are no more tanks around.

[Bagrod]

The point is that the tank role requires an amount of study behind that should not be necessary in a game. That’s why there are no more tanks around.

Well, it is definitely true that you need to do some research before entering a dungeon.

Which is a situation one can blame when you look at the overall state of the game. But again, that seems to be same for every class, although it might be a bit more for us tanks, I don't know.

The "research" I do every week currently it to import the updates Route from Raider.io have a look at it once I decide which dungeon I want to run and then basically follow the route of the tool. Not too much if you ask me, although it is a bit annoying that one has to do that.

When I level a new DPS class, I do have to do research as well. Not only regarding the class and how I do best play it (what also a tank must do I assume) but also about the different abilities in the dungeon, what to prevent, what to let through etc.

This does not come just from blindly following the tank. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be as "accepted" or normal with DPS as it is with tanks. Which is why a lot of DPS play like batshit stupid.

What I would wholeheartedly agree though is, that in the current state of the game, there is way too much research you need to do outside of the game, before you can play it properly. But I still think that holds true for all roles.

[Loveliest]

Yeah, I'm starting to burn out as a tank. Don't get me wrong, I like responsability and leading a run and taking care of everything but this is getting to be too much work. Work. In a game. I have to have routes on top of routes prepared, have backup plans for asspulls, adapt pulls to party's CDs. Meanwhile, the dpses in my grp don't even want to look at a linked route to try to adapt before i have to do it for them on the spot. I have to call out interrupts, stuns, CDs, for ppl to use their bloody healthstones and when, heal them, sacrifice and bop, dispell them, freedomd them, do all the explosives on top of the usual dps rotation perfectly, plan defensives, move and position.
I like doing stuff like this but after starting seasons and having to make at least two routes for each dungeon every season, I am tired. And no, I can't just copy somebody else's routes, I have to change and adapt according to my group's strenghts and weeknesses, I have to make routes that are fast but don't compromise on safety because i don't pug so i need to time the keys i do.
Basically, I am tired. Changing things up every week is supposed to keep things fresh, but it's not like you go there and just wing it and have fun. No, you plan ahead like it's work - on low keys winging it is not bad but on high keys i have to know shit. I have to know exactly which mob in which grp has inspiring to know if i'll need to CC something or pull differently not to risk a dps getting oneshot by a buffed uninterruptible archer thar shoots at random targets. I am tired. I want to enjoy a 30 min dungeon without planning ahead an hour in advanced. And i want the dpses to share the bloody responsability for the route or at least look at it and do some planning for their CDs.

[Beuargh]

you are asking two different questions. the "yes" answer to the thread title is the opposite of the "yes" answer in the poll.... so now, how many people voted "yes" to answer the question in the title??? ways to confuse people and make bullshit poll results.....

[tomten]

The only thing the tank is directly responsible for is when the next pack is pulled if you're chain pulling.

Coming from an obvious ranged dps who probably dont even keybind their interrupt lol.

[Malania]

A lot of the non-tank replies in here are glossing over the requirement for the tank to know the myriad routes for each dungeon and each set of affixes, where applicable. I just switched to tanking in BfA, and it was a lot easier then when the route was either up to +9 or +10 and over for the seasonal affix. In SL, the route can change weekly, needing you to memorise a whole extra bunch of routes, on top of everything else you're supposed to do.

I find it funny that a lot of people say "it's a team effort", and yet universally, the tank must know the routes. I think there'd be a lot more tanks if the dps or healers also took responsibility for the routes.

This is resolved with an addon if you're you can't remember a couple routes per dungeon. (To be fair I've just found that out now as well). The only dungeon I've ever messed up the packs on was DoS. There isn't generally that much variation other than 1-2 extra packs you may sometimes need as most dungeons have a straight path with a few shortcuts you can use to avoid harder packs and pick up extra's later.

[slime]

Weight? You mean responsibility? It's terrible design. Like all of SL.

[tomten]

Well, it is definitely true that you need to do some research before entering a dungeon.

Which is a situation one can blame when you look at the overall state of the game. But again, that seems to be same for every class, although it might be a bit more for us tanks, I don't know.

The "research" I do every week currently it to import the updates Route from Raider.io have a look at it once I decide which dungeon I want to run and then basically follow the route of the tool. Not too much if you ask me, although it is a bit annoying that one has to do that.

When I level a new DPS class, I do have to do research as well. Not only regarding the class and how I do best play it (what also a tank must do I assume) but also about the different abilities in the dungeon, what to prevent, what to let through etc.

This does not come just from blindly following the tank. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be as "accepted" or normal with DPS as it is with tanks. Which is why a lot of DPS play like batshit stupid.

What I would wholeheartedly agree though is, that in the current state of the game, there is way too much research you need to do outside of the game, before you can play it properly. But I still think that holds true for all roles.

Every single thing a DPS does, the tank has todo on top of everything else regarding the tank role.
I challenge you and everyone in this thread, name something unique only a dps does, that a tank also does not do.

[Delever]

This is resolved with an addon if you're you can't remember a couple routes per dungeon. (To be fair I've just found that out now as well). The only dungeon I've ever messed up the packs on was DoS. There isn't generally that much variation other than 1-2 extra packs you may sometimes need as most dungeons have a straight path with a few shortcuts you can use to avoid harder packs and pick up extra's later.

This, especially in shadowlands is way beyond false. Most dungeons have multiple paths, mob skips that if someone fucks up the entire run is fucked because of that extra pull, mobs that patrol and are sometimes a pain to not pull because nowdays you have to kite like a maniac.
The weight the tank has to pull is by no means impossible and props to you if you find it so simple and easy even without addons. I could personally do it but it started burning me out really damn hard when I had to get back from work and do something that felt like work again.
Challenge modes in Pandaria never gave me this feeling and M+ was supposed to follow a similar mindset but with a pseudo endless progression so it would be worth replaying throughout the entire course of an expansion rather than completing it once.

[Kolvarg]

No. It’s created by the game, with the playerbase just adapting.

Get rid of % and/or the timer and you’ll see tanks number going up in seconds.

It’s just too stressful being a tank nowadays.

But % and the timer impacts the group as a whole. It's the playerbase having much higher expectations of tanks and healers vs dps that makes it particularly stressful for them.

Tanks have always been short in numbers and something most people don't want to do, long before M+.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying M+ needs to stay the way it is - I like M+ but I've always disliked the timer aspect for sure. I'm just saying that how stressful tanking is is not just a consequence of design, but also in big part because of player expectation.

[Malania]

Coming from an obvious ranged dps who probably dont even keybind their interrupt lol.

Didn't you say that to the last person who disagreed with you? I'm a Blood DK, Prot Paladin Disc Priest, MM Hunter, Destro lock and and Assas Rogue currently.

Also every keybind for interrupt is the same on every character. Z. If it's the same for every character and class it's muscle memory for me, but try again.