Poll: Do Tanks Hold Too Much Weight in M+?

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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    When people started running the MDungeon Tools and expecting the tank to know every path I quit tanking dungeons over night and never looked back.

    Some people are okay with a game where you have to DL 15 addons just to be able to feel comfortable in game and not like a decapitated rooster or a persecuted gamurr (I need my addon just to have QoL bags, I need my UI frame addon just to not want to vomit, I need my threat plate addon just to be able to see what's going on, I need my dps meter, I need my buff raid frame thingy dingie bobber, I need my weakauras and 30 weak aura strings just to play my class, I need my ArenaMate, I need)

    I'd be surprised if retail WoW has any tanks left who are actually good after Shadowlands. People are getting seriously tired of tedious gaming, what I mean by that: tired of gaming that has a bunch of barriers you have to go through before you can actually start feeling satisfaction, the key word here is "satisfaction". Anything other than that is a failure, period.
    needing to do specific paths and pulls that change with every affix is why i stopped tanking and doing M+ period. i like to play. and have fun. once its chores it isnt fun anymore. walked away form retail adn havent looked back. spending my days woth the other old folks on classic where shit isnt so work like
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Idk tbh, every tank I've ever seen cross the street and become a DPS typically plays better than the DPS players do, both in survivability and parses. Certainly, I've maintanked CE guilds for a while, whenever I spend a tier DPS'ing it's absolutely bliss of ez-mode to me. Experiences vary I guess
    I am not saying tanks are bad players far from it just in terms of roles they have the least plates to spin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that mechanically tanks are hard. How good/skilled tank is does not go by how you press buttons, it goes by how aware you are of everyone and everything around you, which has nothing to do with your class.
    As a class/spec, it's a joke kind of, maybe BDK is a bit higher, but still. But even if tanks were complex and interesting - there is nothing to show for it. Best case scenario is "look, I have managed to survive extra pack this time" which is not even relevant anymore unless you play with uncapped DPS team members. DPS has a bigger dick in the meters and can at least enjoy that. No-one cares about you mitigating 15% more dmg. Bosses don't fall over 20% faster because of some sick rng/skill you pulled out, at least not in most cases. I tank because I enjoy surviving and executing something what I perceive hard, but you can't even do that now because it punishes your team more often than not as the contrast is either you can't tank that OR your team can't survive that.
    I agree. I feel like tanking needs to be made more dangerous myself but I admit I can't think of a creative way to do that without decimating the tank population in easier/starter content.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    It's not unique to DPS tho.
    "...that a tank also does not do". And the only non-DPS that does it is Resto Shamans.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I agree. I feel like tanking needs to be made more dangerous myself but I admit I can't think of a creative way to do that without decimating the tank population in easier/starter content.
    I would love some more dangerous tanking, which enabled your team to do much better. And i'm not talking about running out of a puddle type of "hard" because blizzard implementation would be "this puddle is bigger, so you take longer to run out". If it was so that by playing very well you can do some stupid shit and your team does not get punished for that (i.e. now - you can pull some nice packs off as a tank and not die, but your healer will either hate you or people will die)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    "...that a tank also does not do". And the only non-DPS that does it is Resto Shamans.
    yes, but I don't think OPs point wasn't related to skill, otherwise you could come and say "well, you guys don't have spellwarding".
    Point was that good tank will play like dps. I know some people here that tanking is just taking damage, but if you don't have dps mentality it's not good.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    If it was so that by playing very well you can do some stupid shit and your team does not get punished for that (i.e. now - you can pull some nice packs off as a tank and not die, but your healer will either hate you or people will die)
    Also, at the moment, the healer would spend all their time and mana keeping you up, and then the DPS would complain that the healer was bad because they weren't doing any DPS.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    If you can do more dps than you are currently doing but you are not - you are not doing what you are supposed to do. If DPS are not cc'ing mobs are not helping you, they are not doing what they are supposed to do either. Saying that tank is only supposed to tank is the same as saying dps is only dps which is some +12 mentality.
    So let's clarify this. A Job is not a role. It's everyone's job to interrupt, stun and avoid damage where they can. It's your role to make sure you have enough threat to retain mob aggro from the DPS.

    You are their to do a role and job, if you're taking attention off tanking so you can do pump out higher numbers that's a failing not a virtue because it isn't your role. Sure you can help out on the other aspects. But pumping damage isn't why you're there. Doing intentionally less than what you can do in any role is a totally different issue. That's just a player half assing the run.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I would love some more dangerous tanking, which enabled your team to do much better.
    I really have a hard time imagining that mechanic wise.

    In the end it would all come down to "push this button when X is about to happen, because ouch!".

    In a way, the "kiting meta" is going into this direction isnt it? In a sense you pull a group that is "too dangerous" to just tank, so there is another strat on how to keep the aggro without dying. However, that is really not my preferred playstyle.

    If you have a nice example how "more dangerous tanking" could look like gameplay wise, I am really interested to hear that one.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I was under the impression that baseball does not have a timer.
    "Rule 8.04: “When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call ‘Ball."

    https://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2...ball_rules.pdf

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    At the very top everyone has to play well. But speaking about m+, dps who say that it’s harder to play dps misunderstand that the real issue is a later difficulty curve.

    For tanks, the curve starts to steepen around 10, and by 15 you have to know every route pretty well. This is much harder than what dps have to do to get through 15. Realistically, you need a good tank, one good interrupting dps, and the other 3 players can brain dead pew pew.

    Once you go beyond 15, it stops getting much harder for the tank and starts getting harder on dps, because the tank starts to need help. That doesn’t mean it’s “harder for dps”, it just means the difficulty curve steepens later.
    Dps are the red headed step child when it comes to difficulty in roles. To be a top tier dps is arguably the hardest least forgiving role but for every strong dps in the group the rest can be worse and worse without the overall run being negatively effected.

    Dps I would argue is the hardest role to excel at but the easiest to be carried in if that makes any sense.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Also, at the moment, the healer would spend all their time and mana keeping you up, and then the DPS would complain that the healer was bad because they weren't doing any DPS.
    Where did I say spec. into DPS tank? And also if you can do more dps than your healer is loosing, it's a net gain.

  11. #91
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    I think they designed the trash around using long soft cc but practically every tank i've seen takes it upon themselves to just tank everything even if they have to kite and dance around while also juggling routes and affixes because too many shat on blizz for their way too linear dungeon designs that were straight forward in what you had to pull to progress the dungeon. I get tanks want their role to be interesting to play but they really seem to want to bring it on themselves to be the defacto leaders of every group even when they're not. Just staying alive and keeping aggro apparently doesn't cut it lol.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2021-05-11 at 03:13 PM.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Also, at the moment, the healer would spend all their time and mana keeping you up, and then the DPS would complain that the healer was bad because they weren't doing any DPS.
    Haha, I know this is slightly derailing the topic.

    But as someone who tried to heal as Shaman and switched to elemental DPS, this issues annoys me way more then the tank issue we discuss currently

    I want to play a healer because I want to heal things. The last thing I want to do is to add some DPS (hence, I do not play healer anymore), since I found this kind of back and foruth totally annoying in challenging content. That kind of default attitude, that a healer must also contribute a relevant amount of DPS also stopped me from healing with my Pala in BFA. I absolutely hated this kind of holy shock Heal/DPS Gameplay that came along with the "meta" build that everybody seemed to be expecting.

  13. #93
    In my experience the timer is less of a threat than people make it out to be. You absolutely can use CC on pulls and still make the timer, it's always faster AND easier than dying and running back. My only timer failed wipes were due to people so blinded by the timer they made avoidable mistakes.

    If the trash pack is hard, CC it. CC multiple of it if you need to. The difference is staggering. Think of it like juggling, and you're putting down 2 of the balls.

    Sincerely, a tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  14. #94
    The affix design of 8.3 and 9.0 is what really makes it too much. Managing Portal Routes and Prideful was 100% the tanks job and it requires A LOT more knowledge and skill than all other roles in m+.
    It should not be this way, not even close

  15. #95
    Honestly, no. I think the route thing is pretty stressful. The dungeons should be more straight forward like Theater of pain. Choose the order in which you do the wings rather than pick whatever groups and require preparation ahead of time to know how much % each mob gives. It's a real pain. I'd tank more if not for that. Even though i have addons to tell me these things, it is annoying that they are necessary. It's a lot of pressure when you just want to relax and have some fun with a mythic+ run.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    At what level?
    Pretty low TBH but I don't see why the m+ level would make that suddenly worse advice. We were struggling, it helped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  17. #97
    Too much burden and too much importance, combined with the atrocious kite tanking. The tanks need to perform perfectly from start to end or the run fails at almost all key levels. A hiccup in the dps or even the healers is manageable, but a tank hiccup fails the timer and in pugs it usually means the run ends.

    But the question in the title is the exact opposite of the question in the poll. I voted wrongly because of that.

  18. #98
    The way you invert the question between title and poll is EXTRMELY disingenuous, and I suspect many people have voted the opposite of what they think they have. If you reset the poll, and actually showed some consistency in the thread vs poll, the results would be very different. Sorry but this entire poll should be completely ignored due to the way it is presented.

    I know multiple people who answered "NO" only to read one of the first replies, go back and re-read the poll question, and realize that the question is actually the OPPOSITE of the thread title.

    For those who are confused, the thread title asks "is it good design" and the actual poll question asks "is it bad design".
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    DPS's the target. The tank, tanks it. You're offering additional damage but you aren't the damage dealer as the tank... I would think that would be kind of obvious?
    Guess you only play with shit tanks. Still, both does DPS. Isn't that kind of obvious?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Hit Hero/Lust/Warp.
    I do that with drums if there's no class available for it.
    But thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    Feign Death
    Thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    treants...
    Thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Pull packs the tank and healer aren't ready for.
    You got me here hahah :P
    Last edited by tomten; 2021-05-12 at 02:55 AM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I tanked for a good part of BfA before switching to healing due to tanking being so stressful, I know it is.

    I don’t wanna watch hours of videos and read tons of guides and practice all the routes for every difficulty level and/or affixes and/or party composition. I just want to plug and play. That’s what games are meant for.

    I agree being a good dps is really difficult, though (especially melee these days) but it does not require the amount of side study of a tank, imho.
    This thank you! I think you kind of nailed it for me. I've watched hours of tank videos mostly Quazii's to learn the routes and all the tricks of each mob during Shadowlands. I'd pretty much watch one prior to delving into a key I intended to climb. It was Darkmech's videos during BFA. While I enjoy the improvements I make becoming a more reliable tank....I never did this level of homework as a DPS or a healer. Sure I'd watch a vid or two and read some guides on how to optimize things, but full dungeon runs? Never.

    Tanks once again have always held a bit more responsibility, but it's far more than ever now.

    I do apologize about the pole I literally made this thread as a bit of rant as I was literally just watching one of Quazii's videos for Plaguefall to learn the new route. I got into a 15 pug with a group that was 2200ish each. Perfect for me to test things out! I looked opened up MDT looked out how much the route deviated from what I've been doing so far and I just left group via anxiety and thought see if other tanks are feeling similar.
    Last edited by Matthias; 2021-05-12 at 02:58 AM.

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