[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Katchii]

A project manager can try to set dates all he wants but if the technology hasn't been done yet he has no way to accurately predict how long it will take.

Understanding the project, getting the proper feedback from the stakeholders and task owners, working with them to understand what a realistic timeline is so they can predict a realistic completion date is LITERALLY their job.

Getting it wrong once or twice is expected, but even then their predictions are not supposed to be YEARS off.

CIG has missed several, and are years behind the schedule they set a while ago.

Their project management is terrible.

So while he can still do best estimates in a company in which the core focus is to develop the technology that will allow them to make the game they want that they will not compromise that for the sake of keeping a "best guess estimate".

Calling project management due dates a "best guess estimate" is woefully understating the amount of work, effort and skill it is actually SUPPOSED to take to get to that information and create those timelines. It's not JUST best guess, because admittedly some of it will be when you're working with the unknown, BUT the lion's share of the work is stuff that has understood amounts of work and hours involved so can usually be reliably predicted UNLESS the project is constantly being updated and priorities changing and workload being shifted, etc... all of which is BAD project management.

Setting priorities appropriately so that the project isn't constantly getting rearranged is also part of project management. If CIG is doing this, that's another testament to how bad they are at it.

[Littlechamp]

A project manager can try to set dates all he wants but if the technology hasn't been done yet he has no way to accurately predict how long it will take.

So while he can still do best estimates in a company in which the core focus is to develop the technology that will allow them to make the game they want that they will not compromise that for the sake of keeping a "best guess estimate".

He made his first guess in 2015, he must be super bad at managing anything at all.
We can understand this game will never be released, Chris roberts sucks really bad or he is just a liar trying to milk more from players.

[Beazy]

I think Ando forgot to post the real video of the new tank. Par the course for CIG.

https://streamable.com/h1rrp9

[MrAnderson]

The thing is, the game becomes another "traditional MMO" that way.

With this kind of graphics, big ass ships, big ass planets, fps gameplay it would still stand out from "traditional mmo's" enough to cater to enough players to do well.

Understanding the project, getting the proper feedback from the stakeholders and task owners, working with them to understand what a realistic timeline is so they can predict a realistic completion date is LITERALLY their job.

Getting it wrong once or twice is expected, but even then their predictions are not supposed to be YEARS off.

CIG has missed several, and are years behind the schedule they set a while ago.

Their project management is terrible.

Calling project management due dates a "best guess estimate" is woefully understating the amount of work, effort and skill it is actually SUPPOSED to take to get to that information and create those timelines. It's not JUST best guess, because admittedly some of it will be when you're working with the unknown, BUT the lion's share of the work is stuff that has understood amounts of work and hours involved so can usually be reliably predicted UNLESS the project is constantly being updated and priorities changing and workload being shifted, etc... all of which is BAD project management.

Setting priorities appropriately so that the project isn't constantly getting rearranged is also part of project management. If CIG is doing this, that's another testament to how bad they are at it.

I don't agree, they have no "stakeholders" to comply to, the main guy vision is all it matters.

Every acomplished company has missed estimates by years off, the thing is that it's usually not known because their development is not public.

Blizzard, Rockstar, Ubisoft, CDPR, Bethesda and plenty of other all have proven records of having games delayed and even cancelled after long periods of time.

Just now we've got news about Ubisoft's Pirate game Skull & Bones being delayed yet again: https://www.ign.com/articles/skull-a...gain-into-2022

Skull and Bones has been pushed back yet again. Ubisoft confirmed the ship sim is now targeting a release date sometime between 2022 to 2023

Skull and Bones was originally announced at E3 2017 and was set to be released in 2018. Skull and Bones was later delayed to 2019, then 2020, and again to 2021.

So no, I don't think that a studio that willingly ignores estimate dates for the sake of developing the game they really want to make is mismanagement. It's just taking the choice that's best suited for achieving the goals they want by making use of the leniency that they are fortunate to have thanks to their backers support.

So, for me, Mismanagement could only be declared postmortem. That is, only If when company folds because of trying it.

Financial and Player engagement reports have shown the complete opposite. Despite the best efforts of some very deranged folks.

He made his first guess in 2015, he must be super bad at managing anything at all.
We can understand this game will never be released, Chris roberts sucks really bad or he is just a liar trying to milk more from players.

On par with any other manager attempting games of this ambition.

Looking into the development of other crowdfunded mmo projects I'd say that Star Citizen is doing quite alright.

[Littlechamp]

On par with any other manager attempting games of this ambition.

Looking into the development of other crowdfunded mmo projects I'd say that Star Citizen is doing quite alright.

Shall we talk about Illfonic failure where most of the work was wasted along with backer money?

But its fine right? It's very normal to waste money. Not checking/considering work done, every manager wastes millions everyday.
CR doesn't care since it's not his money that was wasted.

When they find out that this game will never be a MMO, your kind will start to say "they never mentioned this game will be Massive multiplayer".

[MrAnderson]

Shall we talk about Illfonic failure where most of the work was wasted along with backer money?

But its fine right? It's very normal to waste money. Not checking/considering work done, every manager wastes millions everyday.
CR doesn't care since it's not his money that was wasted.

When they find out that this game will never be a MMO, your kind will start to say "they never mentioned this game will be Massive multiplayer".

Yeah it's not the ideal case but it happens in a lot of projects and it's not the end of the world because most AAA games in development already accounts for this missteps as they are part of the process. It's not unheard of companies ditching whole levels and features for variety of reasons.

[Katchii]

I don't agree

You can disagree all you want, that doesn't make you correct. Project management is a well defined process, you're agreement is irrelevant to how the process is supposed to work.

, they have no "stakeholders" to comply to, the main guy vision is all it matters.

By stakeholders I mean the key folks doing the work who have input on the work being done, those people who are key to getting the project completed. Chris Roberts can't do this himself.

Every acomplished company has missed estimates by years off, the thing is that it's usually not known because their development is not public.

Not if they're doing their job right, and I'll bet they only do it once MAYBE twice (for each project). CIG has been doing it routinely since the announced SC.

Blizzard, Rockstar, Ubisoft, CDPR, Bethesda and plenty of other all have proven records of having games delayed and even cancelled after long periods of time.

Just now we've got news about Ubisoft's Pirate game Skull & Bones being delayed yet again: https://www.ign.com/articles/skull-a...gain-into-2022

Skull and Bones has been pushed back yet again. Ubisoft confirmed the ship sim is now targeting a release date sometime between 2022 to 2023

Skull and Bones was originally announced at E3 2017 and was set to be released in 2018. Skull and Bones was later delayed to 2019, then 2020, and again to 2021.

So no, I don't think that a studio that willingly ignores estimate dates for the sake of developing the game they really want to make is mismanagement. It's just taking the choice that's best suited for achieving the goals they want by making use of the leniency that they are fortunate to have thanks to their backers support.

Couple things here.

1) All of the studios you listed are working on multiple projects.
2) Delays happen, that's understood
3) This last year gives many folks a pass, for a variety of reasons
4) An established company delaying an unreleased game so they can focus on more current or pressing concerns is different than an unestablished company with no previous works released whose current project is years behind schedule delaying that game AGAIN
5) Cancelling a company funded project is doable, and understandable if they find it just won't work or no longer makes sense for whatever reason. Cancelling a crowdfunded project is a completely difference story.

So, for me, Mismanagement could only be declared postmortem. That is, only If when company folds because of trying it.

You can absolutely comment on whether something is being mismanaged during the project. The fact that you don't think you can speaks volumes about your ignorance on project management and how it's supposed to work.

Financial and Player engagement reports have shown the complete opposite. Despite the best efforts of some very deranged folks.

What does player engagement have to do with project management? I'm saying they're bad at project management, not that they're making a bad game or bad at creating the game.

[banmebaby]

I think Ando forgot to post the real video of the new tank. Par the course for CIG.

https://streamable.com/h1rrp9

Roflmao! Dear lord, I love this project.

[kenn9530]

The server meshing stuff is really weird though and basically the whole game will depend on it and if it doesn't work, there will be no alternative to make it playable properly as an MMO. Or rather, they have to ditch so much shit that the game will become rather generic and you'd ask yourself "20 years for this...?" (because it won't release in the next 5-7 years either way) if you aren't already asking yourself that.

This whole "ICache" thing (to the extend that they plan to implement it) that is required for that to work seems so unrealistic in a game enviroment like that.
"The player doesn't need this asset right now, so it will stay inside the cache and remains hidden" - I don't trust that shit one bit and I bet you'll have random shit popping in and out like you'd play on low draw-distance.

It would be really cool if it works though

The game is not dependant on server meshing at all its just the most effective option for the best results, as a stepping stone they are going to use the system most MMOs where the map is essentially split up into many different servers and when you cross a border you automatically switch server, server meshing is just the next step above that which will have better performance and allow even larger groups of players in one area.

[MrAnderson]

You can disagree all you want, that doesn't make you correct. Project management is a well defined process

So, by your accounts every other company, big and small company seems to be "mismanaging" their games development.

Seems a clear evidence that it's just part of the process and not something inherently related with mismanagement.

You're disagreement clashes with reality but I don't think it's irrelevant, after all it's just your personal assessment of the situation based on your knowledge.

[KrayZ33]

With this kind of graphics, big ass ships, big ass planets, fps gameplay it would still stand out from "traditional mmo's" enough to cater to enough players to do well.

I doubt it.
Would just be another ED without it.

[MrAnderson]

I doubt it.
Would just be another ED

ED could never be a traditional MMO due to it's P2P network. Star Citizen would keep having dedicated servers to run it's universe spread across multiple servers, the only difference was that it would be more instanced instead of completely seamless.

[Gorsameth]

The game is not dependant on server meshing at all its just the most effective option for the best results, as a stepping stone they are going to use the system most MMOs where the map is essentially split up into many different servers and when you cross a border you automatically switch server, server meshing is just the next step above that which will have better performance and allow even larger groups of players in one area.

The fact that servers are unable to run stable, have low player counts and that they already had to remove assets to be able to add other assets to test, without Server Meshing shows that the game is entirely dependant on it to actually work in the way it is envisioned.

[Beazy]

So, by your accounts every other company, big and small company seems to be "mismanaging" their games development.

No, no one is saying that, only someone as woefully uneducated about project management would say something as stupid as what you just typed.

I'm still waiting, for over a year, for you to explain which parts of the PMBOK are out dated and not part of the project management process/scope anymore. Or atleast, explain why they dont apply to CIG. Just remember I'm PMBOK and SCRUM certified so temper your bullshit response with a good google search first.

[KrayZ33]

ED could never be a traditional MMO due to it's P2P network. Star Citizen would keep having dedicated servers to run it's universe spread across multiple servers, the only difference was that it would be more instanced instead of completely seamless.

It would not, because the game won't run stable without it. It would have to cut half its shit. That's just the price they'd have to pay.
"more instanced" would seriously mess up stuff immensly too.

It being like ED would be the best case scenario.

[MrAnderson]

No, no one is saying that, only someone as woefully uneducated about project management would say something as stupid as what you just typed.

I'm still waiting, for over a year, for you to explain which parts of the PMBOK are out dated and not part of the project management process anymore. Or atleast, explain why they dont apply to CIG. Just remember I'm PMBOK and SCRUM certified so temper your bullshit response with a good google search first.

We've dance to that music before, tune is still the same: https://www.mmo-champion.com/newrepl...ply&p=52411505

You can't predict things you've never done before. That's all ambitious games that try new stuff end up with delays.

No scapegoat there, trial & error is just how innovation is achieved.

[Beazy]

We've dance to that music before, tune is still the same: https://www.mmo-champion.com/newrepl...ply&p=52411505

You can't predict things you've never done before. That's all ambitious games that try new stuff end up with delays.

No scapegoat there, trial & error is just how innovation is achieved.

So you still cant explain it? Thats odd for someone who knows so much about project management as yourself. LoL /facepalm

Its cute that you think that link explains away anything were talking about, further cementing the fact you know fuck all about project management or being a project manager.

[kenn9530]

The fact that servers are unable to run stable, have low player counts and that they already had to remove assets to be able to add other assets to test, without Server Meshing shows that the game is entirely dependant on it to actually work in the way it is envisioned.

Its not dependant on it at all though, they have already explained what they are going to do before server meshing and that system alone will be more than suitable for all MMO needs, server meshing is just the next level and would provide even better performance, there will be a limit on the amount of players that can be in one area.

[Katchii]

So, by your accounts every other company, big and small company seems to be "mismanaging" their games development.

I won't try and argue that this is not possible, that would be dishonest on my part.

However, there are many different things to consider here, least of which is CIG's only job right now is to develop these two games. That's it. Versus the responsibilities and considerations other more established game developers have to work on as well.

Also, the number of times it's happened with CIG, with just these two games. They've missed several milestones, many times. Most other companies, and most other projects don't get delayed that many times.

{Insert "you had one job!" meme}

Seems a clear evidence that it's just part of the process and not something inherently related with mismanagement.

Read response above. Delays happen, they're expected. This many delays, coupled with this many missed milestones and having to change expected dates this many times is not. If the due dates and milestones are changing this often, it means the project is not being managed well. That doesn't mean it isn't getting completed at all, or that the end product is going to be terrible. It just means the project is disorganized and not really aligned on priorities.

Actual project management is supposed to create REALISTIC time lines by getting feedback from the people actually doing the work and only set those due dates once it's been vetted out by the entire team as something that's doable. Priorities are set, the "critical path" is set which determines which are the pieces of the project every other piece of the project are dependent on and/ or having the longest lead times to complete. It's a very time consuming, detail oriented, work intensive process. It's not ever meant to be something you do multiple times. You set a clear path at the beginning and work to that.

The alternative for why they're missing dates is because the people feeding that help set the timelines, by feeding their information to the project manager, don't know what they're doing or are giving the project manager bad information.

Neither is a good option

You're disagreement clashes with reality but I don't think it's irrelevant, after all it's just your personal assessment of the situation based on your knowledge.

And my experience as a project manager. What reality are you speaking to?

It's a fact that CIG project management is awful. Your apparent disagreement with that is you feel that they're still getting the work you care about done and don't feel that it has a huge impact on the game and your enjoyment of it. That's fine, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[MrAnderson]

The thing is, it's not unheard of since there's been recurrent and multiple public examples of it happening along many studios.
I don't think that it's a surprise that projects with such particular settings of crowdfunding along the birth of a new studio and it's growth making a game as ambitious as this one to go through delays. Specially when we've seen similar situations happening in less ambitious projects from more experienced companies.

No matter how hard you try to smack that dead horse how long a game took to make is irrelevant if it's players are happy playing it.