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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I also cant stand that all my power is literally thrown at me in an 8 week period from 3 trivial quests per week (literally invalidating doing anything else). Its terrible design. If i could fill up a renown bar like the azerite power/artifact power from the two previous expansions, over the course of the week just playing the game, i would have much preferred this - EVEN IF it meant i was 20 renown levels off the pace of even the average core player.
    But you are gonna need renown 75 to start getting 237 gear xd and you get 3 renown like the first 2 weeks? then its just 2 renown per week, you can do the math, also you dont know what quests are gonna give renown (maybe the 1k anima weekly stays), unless blizz wants us to keep going to the maw for those souls even tho its "outdated" content.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I didn't read this. Whered you hear this? if its true I can't wait to hear people crying about forced content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The achievement requirement is obnoxious. Its one to thing to have thr world quests offer such paltry gains in the first place but to then also lock it behind ksm is fucking insulting.
    That should come automatically though, get some 8 10s done and you are all good, and work from there. How is that insulting.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    But you are gonna need renown 75 to start getting 237 gear xd and you get 3 renown like the first 2 weeks? then its just 2 renown per week, you can do the math, also you dont know what quests are gonna give renown (maybe the 1k anima weekly stays), unless blizz wants us to keep going to the maw for those souls even tho its "outdated" content.
    Yeah, you're completely right. Which is why i dont really want this at all. I just want them to make the world game more fun. Even if its blizzards idea of fun (lots of grinding for rep for cool stuff). Just off the top of my head from recent history: Fun for me = allied races and their 110 gear; legendary grinds (cloak, ring); rng drops in the world and from caches (the fox mount in wod for example), epic storylines (suramar), bonkers islands (mechagon). Im so simple to please. I like grinding stuff that makes me feel special for grinding it. Ive never cared about loot because i can still do everything i plan to do with the gear i have. Shaving off 5 seconds from a rare being downed isnt that big of a deal. And if i cant do it on my own, (honeysmasher - was that his name?), im gonna make a group.

    i just like classic (not wow classic) world stuff. Grinding, farming, getting cool rewards that other people who dont farm and grind dont get. Its my niche. And yet the anima rewards (the expansions solution for world players) kinda rub me the wrong way.

    And i think this is a pacing issue. Too much at once. Too many things that require anima and too few opportunities to farm it. Im not against it by any means. But it was poorly understood and implemented. If the recolored covenant gear came out in 9.1 say, then id be 'cool! Im so up for this!' But just dumping it all in 9.0 and saying 'this is an expansion feature... oh, and ps. we're going to add more rewards in 9.1 and 9.2 you can buy with anima!' im 'christmas tree effect'ed. I sound like such a jerk, but its too much. If there were less rewards i'd be so into them individually. But now i have this massive shopping list of stuff and see the numbers (3,000,000 anima for the lot?) and see the 35 anima rewards and think... i aint doing that! Im just not. Its not that they dont have the things i want in game. Its that they really mucked up on pacing to incentivise me to keep going.

    ETA: I should add. Just because i dont care about gear doesnt mean every casual doesnt. And if that intense farming for a few of those pieces gives that aspiring progression minded player an avenue into a mythic 7 and start their chain, thats kinda good for everyone (but their current group), right? They did the BS. They got their pieces. They ground out their requirements. They just wanna break into the real end game? We all did it at some point. I got carried through numerous raids in vanilla and TBC before i understood what was happening. The game needs more avenues to help that player. It makes the core game stronger. ETA2: Incentivising experienced players (more valor when someone increases their IO level) is a really good change. They should do MUCH more of that.

    Actually, now i think about it, this is the single best change they've made in this expansion. Ive been playing so much ff14 recently. I'd be DONE if it werent for the 300 daily reward poetics for players to hit the main story quest on the dungeon finder roulette. Wait... i'd be DONE if it wasnt for the 300 daily poetics incentive, PLUS the 200 for just finishing it anyway at any time (including in your daily), AND the 100 poetics you get for every new player you get in your group running this for the first time. Thats 500 poetics (a piece of lets say... er, 210 gear?) at minimum and maybe with two new players, 700 poetics - 2 off pieces, which you can buy directly from a vendor by the way) for one "dead content" 30 or so minute investment. If they could just be a little less parsimonious. Players value their time. Rightly so. I want mythic 0-4 on dungeon finder. But if LFG incentivised you to carry players for awesome rewards like that, my argument is dead. New players are literally rewarding experienced players for their investment (and have less pressure to perform - they can literally tell them they'll get this boost in group finder). Older players are helping new players learn the dungeon and garner rating/experience.

    Its the smartest thing they've done in years. There's less pressure on performance for newer inexperienced players, and more incentive for experienced players to join their groups. Again, this reinforces what makes wow, wow. Throwing gear or ilvls at players does literally none of this. So this is a terrible change on its own. But with that one tiny incentive depressurising performance (based on IOscore), this has the makings of something wonderful. The carried can feel like they helped (ralph wiggum style), and the carrier can feel like they didnt quite have to do everything and may want to experience this again. Im changing my mind about 9.1. Im not entirely convinced quite yet, but they're fixing endemic issues since wod piece by piece.

    ETA4?: One final problem to resolve. Just have those callings or world bosses drop a key. Not a ridiculous key. Just a +1 Key. And if they drop another one, give them the choice to replace their current one (you can only ever have one at a time). Put a mythic plus 1 key in their bags. Let them list it. Let them inform other players this is an IO upgrade with bonus valor. Let them make a group (also, fix the listings around those grounds), and the idea of LFD mythic dungeons (and the invariable loss of community engagement) is over.

    They just need to go ham on this and not get all in a fluster about 'over rewarding'. Might i mention BOA valor?
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-05-12 at 10:42 AM.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I find random battlegrounds fun. It's the one thing I found consistently fun throughout every expansion. I used to be able to get decent gear from them too. Now I can't and all I would have to look forward to is getting crushed. Since that essentially means I'm not allowed to play what I find fun, what reason is there to pay a sub?
    Yep, same boat. I am not a PvPer so rated content is out of my league but in the end I always end up finding myself going into random battlegrounds whenever I feel done with my PvE stuff. Now, back in CATA I remember there was some way to convert Honor to Justice (now Conquest) points. It was something like 500 Honor > 250 Justice. While it took longer, it allowed me to get comparable gear to those doing rated and was a good system to keep me engaged in PvP.

    We could use some of that now.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    So in 9.1 you'll be able to upgrade gear to heroic iLvls by doing casual content. It has been likened to benthic gear so most presumably a limited resource/currency that will allow you to slowly work on upgrading your gear by doing daily quests and/or world quests.

    Hopefully you can earn the currency from daily heroics and LFR as well in order to breathe some life in to those forms of casual content.

    Thoughts? It seems as though Blizzard have listened to the feedback from all the casuals who quit shadowlands early on.

    Active Thread Warnings:

    Let's drop the rolling game vs. game arguments and return to the topic of the thread concerning 9.1 and gearing.
    All this is highly amusing and mostly about bruised egos than anything to do with gearing.

    Blizzard have imo long taken a view of keeping casual players motivated by offering them the chance to get high ilvl gear (sometimes with good stats - sometimes with laughable stats), at an equivalent level to heroic raids or maybe even higher. Because of the "frequency" of casual players being able to get this gear, by the time they actually get a number of pieces like this, the NEXT tier has come out and the gear is again - lower than max. I fail to see how this is a bad thing for anyone.

    1. It doesn't provide enough of a gear up for raiders to feel they "have to do this content" do get all their gear chances as its slow and low to obtain.
    2. it doesn't invalidate the work that heroic raiders put into their game as they get the same gear MUCH MUCH earlier. By the time casuals would get this via Blizzard's "freebies to casuals" it is hardly relevant anymore.
    3. It DOES give a motivation for casuals to play. All these "you don't need it" arguments are moot points. Of course casuals don't need it. However it DOES keep them invested in the game which keeps sub numbers up and more money to MAKE the end game content that raiders want.

    As it motivates people to play the game and pay money to Blizzard AND it doesn't really affect any raiders more than their snowflake egos, I fail to see any issue with it.

    Personally... I am a casual. I don't cry about not getting great gear as I am not doing the content. I am happy with my mostly covenant gear, my L3 leggo, and a few items from world bosses. However, I also do not play retail that much. Rest assured thought that when I hear an event is on that will give me something extra I WILL play the game more. If it wasn't for the fact I am already paying sub for Classic, then this would motivate me to pay more money to Blizzard to get that "free gear".

    As far as this new "benthic" gear - I think its a great idea and yes - it does seem to be "following on" from covenant gear. It sounds like it will be easy to get but VERY time consuming to upgrade. Just like benthic gear I doubt VERY much if I would get it all and upgrade it all. However the fact that I COULD is a motivation to play more. Not sure that would personally keep me entertained just like I didnt complete enough to get all my Benthic gear fully upgraded either.

    it's all about choice. It's very self defeatist for hard core raiders (although I personally believe its more "wannabe" hardcore raiders that complain), to complain about casuals getting gear some weeks or months after them and who are STILL a long way behind due to only being able to get one item ever few weeks at max. It's in the best interest of ALL players to keep as many players satisfied with their game progression as possible as that keeps the most people subbed. Bobby isnt about to take a pay cut to pay for wow content for hard core raiders if all the casuals left the game for example!

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassidin View Post
    SNIP
    Name a first tier of any expansion when this was possible - obtaining loot BETTER THAN HEROIC without raiding. Hell, right now you can get normal mode without even joining a group. Things are better than they have EVER been from a loot perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  7. #347
    You. Cant. Be. Serious. Dude.

    Look, you seem intelligent and you seem like you have a decent grasp of the wider game. Cant you just engage in a discussion instead of always trying to shut it down with a nascent point that REALLY and TRULY tells us nothing?

    Joe Biden got the most votes of any democratic candidate in history. Does this mean he was more popular? No. Its a feature of demographics and population. The increase in ilvl indicates ONLY an increase in the base game expectations. I explained this (in huge detail). Normal is now LFR according to blizzard. And i cant understand your resistance to this point. Its literal ammunition to say "See, the game hasnt changed at all!"

    (although, to be fair, i did go to great lengths to point out how my EXPERIENCE of the game is diminished by blizzard's implementation of their reward system and thus scupper all i previously loved about the game, precisely so people can level an alt (not just the hardcore by the way) much faster - but also, why SHOULD they cater to me? If its better to give players more access to alts, then thats a design philosophy change. My not liking it is neither here nor there, right?).
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-05-12 at 10:55 AM.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Name a first tier of any expansion when this was possible - obtaining loot BETTER THAN HEROIC without raiding. Hell, right now you can get normal mode without even joining a group. Things are better than they have EVER been from a loot perspective.
    Quite sure that you could get Mythic raid loot ilvl from doing dailies in Legion.

    Also in Wotlk you could get the highest ilvl loot from doing hc dungeons via points.. etc. There are a lot of examples in WoW history where you could obtain the highest level loot from not doing raids.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Quite sure that you could get Mythic raid loot ilvl from doing dailies in Legion.

    Also in Wotlk you could get the highest ilvl loot from doing hc dungeons via points.. etc. There are a lot of examples in WoW history where you could obtain the highest level loot from not doing raids.
    Wrong and Wrong. I said first tier, and you could not get bis through heroics in wrath, you could get a few great pieces, but they were not bis, it wasnt complete sets, and it again, wasnt first tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Wrong and Wrong. I said first tier, and you could not get bis through heroics in wrath, you could get a few great pieces, but they were not bis, it wasnt complete sets, and it again, wasnt first tier.
    So, now it isn't about the ilvl but about tier sets and best in slot? That wasn't what you said.

  11. #351
    See ya'll in 10.0. SL is the 'dumpster-fire' xpac.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    So, now it isn't about the ilvl but about tier sets and best in slot? That wasn't what you said.
    Read the question - Getting a few decent pieces for farming for weeks is fine - but is absolutely nowhere near as strong as what we have now. You said bis - not me. And yes, it absolutely 100% is about ilvl, thats literally the topic of the discussion.

    ps - i never once said anything about tier sets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  13. #353
    Pure deductive reasoning on his part. He will shift all the goalposts necessary to make it fit. In two weeks he'll argue once again that casual players are too contradictory to know what they want (as if theyre a monolith despite the routine evidence they arent), that they all want mythic gear (despite me (and others) telling him i (we) dont), and that no one has answered his question about his ever moving goalposts question which is apparently super important and needs to be answered (despite it being a feature of ilvl inflation and the increase of multiple reward systems/difficulties over time). Pay it no heed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There are far more interesting discussions we could have:

    For one, how we can incentive +15 key players to queue for +2 plaguefall?

    And how we can incentivise players (who wouldnt otherwise) to list their +2 PF?

    What is an appropriate valor reward? And why should this valor be BOA (because of COURSE it should!). Blizzard are so close to fixing so many issues with this one simple change (already in ptr). Im so hyped about this. Gear alone is garbage. Gear plus an incentive to USE it in the sphere its supposed to be used is mondblowing in how simple and obvious it is. All you need to do is follow through and make sure that players running 15 keys arent punished for carrying players in twos? And that they can send that valor to a character on their account that actually needs the valor?

    This is a super awesome change of design, whilst retaining current philosophy. Its brilliant.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-05-12 at 11:16 AM.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Read the question - Getting a few decent pieces for farming for weeks is fine - but is absolutely nowhere near as strong as what we have now. You said bis - not me. And yes, it absolutely 100% is about ilvl, thats literally the topic of the discussion.

    ps - i never once said anything about tier sets.
    So again in Legion, it was possible to obtain better loot than the highest raiding difficulty offered - not only on par but even better loot. So far far far better loot than even the highest raid difficulty offered. Not just heroic raiding.

    Ps found this gem from BFA:

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    So again in Legion, it was possible to obtain better loot than the highest raiding difficulty offered - not only on par but even better loot. So far far far better loot than even the highest raid difficulty offered. Not just heroic raiding.

    Ps found this gem from BFA:
    Oh right, so now suddenly we are including group content and dungeons - then POOF! the "problem" just vanished...Do M+.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh right, so now suddenly we are including group content and dungeons - then POOF! the "problem" just vanished...Do M+.
    That was a heroic dungeon.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    That was a heroic dungeon.
    Yes - group content or dungeons. Something the "casuals" have said they refuse to do. Go back, and read the question again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes - group content or dungeons. Something the "casuals" have said they refuse to do. Go back, and read the question again.
    Can you quote someone who said he refuses to do heroic dungeons for loot?

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Can you quote someone who said he refuses to do heroic dungeons for loot?
    "he" who? Who are you talking about? Are you suggesting this discussion is only about one person and their personal requirements?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  20. #360
    I don't get it. Isn't this basically just the current renown gear upgrade system but extended into the next patch?

    If you're that worried about casuals catching up with your gear after they're doing 17 weeks of quests and farming, then I think their gear is the least of your problems.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

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