View Poll Results: Would you want Dual spec added in Classic TBC?

Voters
199. This poll is closed
  • Yes

    138 69.35%
  • No

    61 30.65%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Well, or you could have two "proper" tanks. It's not like you do MDI pulls on raid trash in TBC so two tanks could easy hold 3 mobs each
    If you have the choice between marking, CC'ing and killing each mob separately or just AoE'ing them down, i think most people will favor the latter.
    This isn't even about speedrunning, but the difference between being able to AoE down trash and taking them one by one is huge.
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    What about dungeon running then? You have two tanks in a guild of 25 people.
    What exactly does people stop from doing dungeons with other people?
    You don't have to do it with only your guild, right?

    And if you're that desparate to do with your guild, most tank classes will be able to tank heroics even without tank spec, they may take a bit more damage and their tps may not be as good (altough being dps specced may off set this to some extent), but this isn't like Retail where you're missing a bunch of crucial passives / abilities.

    It's slower but far from impossible, the gear is probably the bigger factor here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Not going to argue that Prot Paladin is even comparable to Warrior/Feral for single target (it's not, claiming anything else is wishful thinking or very special fights) but 80 damage out of 6000 is actually more than 1% DR. BoSanc isn't worthless, even if it isn't even top 3 of blessings for tanks.
    Yeah, my bad, typed it incorrectly into calc and didn't question the results.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Yep, I agree, though I do think there should be some kind of block so it isn't the case that you swap between bosses and even trash/bosses. A CD of a couple hours would be good enough to me.
    Indeed, it could have some sort of limitation, so that changing specs still has a bit of thought behind it, reason and value.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    In order to receive Crushing Blows as a Warrior, you need to be extremely unlucky or have extremely short swing timers on a boss as Shield block lasts two hits and has a 5 sec CD.

    You need to be:
    Hit 3 times within a 5 second window
    2 of those hits are blocked (not dodged / parried)
    3rd hit lands (not blocked / dodged / parried)
    Becomes a crushing blow

    Even with a more stamina focused itemization, a T4 / T5 geared Warrior sits around 70-80% avoidance.
    It is possible, but considering the level of avoidance tanks can reach, i just don't see it as a very common occurrence.

    Putting aside that crushing blows / parry haste on some bosses (such as Brutallus) are disabled.

    Or you just...you know, have a guy that mains Prot Pally that will be your 2nd tank on both trash and bosses.
    Yeah, and bear is better than warrior at that point. So why bring a warrior tank?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Yeah, and bear is better than warrior at that point. So why bring a warrior tank?
    Seems a stupid response in that context, Warriors will be pushed off sooner or later, because this is how the TBC Meta evolved, unless you want to touch class balance, that is way it played out.

    This discussion is about retroactively adding a feature that did not exist, which then likely alters the Meta as people will be less inclined to have someone maining Prot Pally in a raid but simply rely on one pally having a 2nd spec in order to fill that role whenever necessary.

    After all, you could also have two Feral Druids and a Pally with Prot offspec, Leader of the Pack for two groups surely sounds nice.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Yeah, and bear is better than warrior at that point. So why bring a warrior tank?
    Fight Club's been doomposting that since Feb, lol.

    You'd bring a Warrior when you:
    A) Need a guaranteed Shield Block
    B) Have a giant disparity in gear (where your War is way more geared)
    C) You like your Warrior tank/they're a veteran
    D) You don't have a better option, or don't care

    I just think that there are more Warriors going into TBC than Ferals, based on the last couple weeks of WCL (2.6m Warrior logs, 75k Feral + 34k Balance) and it'll probably come down to "What can we recruit".

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Fight Club's been doomposting that since Feb, lol.

    You'd bring a Warrior when you:
    A) Need a guaranteed Shield Block
    B) Have a giant disparity in gear (where your War is way more geared)
    C) You like your Warrior tank/they're a veteran
    D) You don't have a better option, or don't care

    I just think that there are more Warriors going into TBC than Ferals, based on the last couple weeks of WCL (2.6m Warrior logs, 75k Feral + 34k Balance) and it'll probably come down to "What can we recruit".
    And they are right. Warrior tanks fall off of a cliff.
    The discussion is not what you have available, the discussion is what is best. And why don't gear your protpala then beforehand.
    Why would you need a guaranteed shield block, shield block is less reliable than holy shield, and in SWP there are no more crushing blows afaik.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Seems a stupid response in that context, Warriors will be pushed off sooner or later, because this is how the TBC Meta evolved, unless you want to touch class balance, that is way it played out.

    This discussion is about retroactively adding a feature that did not exist, which then likely alters the Meta as people will be less inclined to have someone maining Prot Pally in a raid but simply rely on one pally having a 2nd spec in order to fill that role whenever necessary.

    After all, you could also have two Feral Druids and a Pally with Prot offspec, Leader of the Pack for two groups surely sounds nice.
    You could just admit that your statement just isn't true for the entirety of TBC, which you kind of do with your first sentence, but ok.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    And they are right. Warrior tanks fall off of a cliff.
    The discussion is not what you have available, the discussion is what is best. And why don't gear your protpala then beforehand.
    Why would you need a guaranteed shield block, shield block is less reliable than holy shield, and in SWP there are no more crushing blows afaik.
    You seem to really crave it, so i'll just say it:
    Prot Pallies are better than Warriors by the end of TBC, which was pretty much a secondary thing to this debate, not the actual point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    You could just admit that your statement just isn't true for the entirety of TBC, which you kind of do with your first sentence, but ok.
    I mean, it doesn't change the point now, does it?
    I think you nitpick something that doesn't that ultimately no impact on my actual point: There's no reason to bring a Prot Pally to a boss when you have dual spec, because they're still worse than Ferals.

  8. #48
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    would love it, but #somechanges apparently meant ingame store ...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    What about at least having load outs so you don't have to click 60 times and manage your spell bars every time?
    "Some changes" pretty much mean anything at this point. Just wait for BT Launch Exclusive with 3 polygon DH Pepe pet and Fel Netherdrake mount.
    Load outs are perfectly fine in my opinion. I'm not against them in any way. If somebody wants to hearth back to their main city and get summoned back after every raid encounter, let them. I just don't think people should be encouraged or allowed to swap specs are the press of a button mid dungeon or raid.

    Having an option to store a talent build and hotbars so make swapping specs a little less cumbersome is totally fine. It will encourage more people to play something other than DPS. Maybe you're a paladin farming in the open world and your friend asks you to tank a dungeon. You might not want to do that with the current system, but you might be okay with doing it if you can just fly to a trainer and pay to activate your saved second spec/hotbars.

  10. #50
    I always enjoyed being able to easily fill multiple roles in my guild, to fit our needs.

    Healer/Tank called out for the night? Swap to Healer/Tank.
    Normal raid night, and I'm MS DPS? Stay whatever DPS spec I am.
    If I'm MS Tank and the fight only requires one Tank? Spec DPS or Healer, whichever is most beneficial.

    In Original BC, I always swapped on some Healing gear on my Prot Pala on single-tank fights. Was generally more useful to us most times than me or the Warrior trying to DPS in our Prot Specs.

    That's the beauty of Feral tanks. They can Tank and (do suitable) DPS with the same spec.

    If it comes down to the raid having a harder time clearing content because A) lack of recruitment or B) call outs, I'll happily swap.
    Last edited by Anastacy; 2021-05-12 at 06:52 PM.
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  11. #51
    Dual Spec as a costly gold sink, at least 10k gold ...sure.
    Otherwise, no.
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  12. #52
    No. Keep that away from BC, please.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I would not. This will effectively cause identity to be lost. Want to be a prot pally? Guess what? You're now a holy pally that just switches to prot for a few encounters, while the ele shaman goes resto.

    Some changes doesn't mean green light to pick features from future expansions but rather address actual issues.

    Respeccing at the trainer is not such a big deal that some people make it out to be.
    As someone who's played a Ret Paladin on private TBC servers, I can tell you that respec costs suck massive gold. One does not spec Ret and stay Ret throughout TBC. You gotta spec Prot and farm out those Heroic Dungeons to reserve primal nethers to get Deep Thunder. You'll need Holy as an offspec because a good lot of early TBC raids hate melee. I know there are some dps Warriors and Rogues thinking they'll get away with it, but trust me a good raid will bench you if they want to progress.

    So either I waste everyone's time entering Heroic dungeons as Ret while offering no real crowd control, or I can save my gold with dual spec which not only saves enough gold to get my epic flying mount but gives players an AOE tank or healer for faster dungeon runs to get those nether primals. Which yes I'll be a dick about reserving them but that's the price for finding a tank in TBC.

  14. #54
    No. For the simple reason that when something is easy to switch you're expected to.

    It'll be just like retail where you can't play the spec or build you enjoy because it's "not optimal". It doesn't matter if you perform better with an easier spec and/or build because obviously every player is expected to be the best player in the world.

  15. #55
    Well I wouldn't actively advocate for it, but I wouldn't mind it being added.

    A couple of friends of mine will be doing arena, and it would be nice to jump in with them every now and then without having to respec every time.
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  16. #56
    Nope, that's a horrible idea.

    Doesn't fit into their design idea at all (dual spec was definetely never intended by the original devs), it would have all sorts of implications on who you bring to your raid and is probably the greatest contributor to the current "kill all rpg features!" crowd on retail, who are against any new RPG feature that isn't cosmetic and basically demand a class switch button (just give every new alt everything your main has accomplished and make leveling so fast you can barely notice it!), because not being optimal in every situation is just too much for them.

    So it's bad on a design level, it's bad on a class balance level and it's bad on a slippery slope argument level.
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  17. #57
    I think it would be a positive thing if it were restricted to being at the trainer, so functionally nothing you couldn't already do with addons. In that case it would let people go do things they want to do without worrying about the calculus of how long they're going to stay in that spec and it's worth the gold. Even if it were priced such that it wasn't really a money saver for most people, the psychological effect would be significant in terms of freeing the player up to just go do what they enjoy.

    It's sort of like the chrono-displacer. At first glance it seems like a ridiculous powercreep. But in practice the power gain happens with or without it and the real effect is just to let people go out in the world and goof off without worrying about raid implications.

    But hot-swapping specs mid-raid would significantly change the way raids play and should be a non-starter. Particularly ZA runs where it would be a noticeable nerf. Obviously dropping/adding healers or tanks would be the more noticeable thing, but letting every DPS have two specs for different kinds of fights would be a big deal too. They'd probably want to put a few hour cooldown on it so people don't just portal/summon

    I think y'all are somewhat underestimating how hard it is to maintain a progression quality offspec tanking set. You tend to pick up like a third of a set worth of what a main spec would have because of drop RNG, but then a third of a set is stuff that's a tier behind and that last third is groupable/offspec stuff. On average it's fairly bad.
    Last edited by Erleichda; 2021-05-13 at 08:25 AM.

  18. #58
    Rather they added transmog. Just because the TBC aesthetic is shit for the most part. (in my opinion).
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrbleedinggums View Post
    you sound like the type of person that required all the other stuff Let's not lie to ourselves now.
    True, those mentioned were all required for not having sub running.
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    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I would not. This will effectively cause identity to be lost. Want to be a prot pally? Guess what? You're now a holy pally that just switches to prot for a few encounters, while the ele shaman goes resto.

    Some changes doesn't mean green light to pick features from future expansions but rather address actual issues.

    Respeccing at the trainer is not such a big deal that some people make it out to be.
    people already switched specs when needed anyways,this change would simply be a QoL change as to not have to run back to a trainer to swap

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