Russia threatening to invade Ukraine 2.0

[Easo]

Well Russia pulled out of the entire Warsaw pact, without demanding a war to do it. As for setting up staging ground, how else should Russia interpret hostile actions and weapons systems of a country that constantly calls for their destruction on their border?

What country calls what? Can you be specific or it is too hard for you?

[Kellhound]

Keep dreaming.

Oil, gas, and other petroleum products alone account for over 1/2 of Russia's exports. Most of the rest revolves around mineral extraction and processing. Without hydrocarbons, and the massive number of jobs that go with it, Russia is, as I said, screwed.

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Well Russia pulled out of the entire Warsaw pact, without demanding a war to do it. As for setting up staging ground, how else should Russia interpret hostile actions and weapons systems of a country that constantly calls for their destruction on their border?

Russia was in no position to demand anything after the collapse of the USSR. We don't want to see Russia destroyed, that would allow China even easier access to Siberian materials. We just want it to stay out of the world's affairs beyond being a source of cheap raw materials. Russia knows full well that the US/NATO will never start an offensive war against it, even if Russia scrapped every tank and artillery piece it has.

[Howel]

So America screams out in pain even as it tries to murder you. And I am supposed to take America's side? Why? When its being evil I should cheer? And here I was told I was told being jingoists and xenophobes was bad by this forums illustrious commentators.

As opposed to taking Russia's side as they scream oppression, as they are oppressing you. No one is saying you have to cheer or be happy about it, but pretending that it is black and white, is a whole other ballpark of emotional dumbassery.
And yeah you get told that, because there is a difference between people and nations; if ya wanna try gotchas, please put at least a bit of effort into it.

[Felya]

Oh and since someone had to bring up the CIA... Reality Winner is still in jail for releasing top secret information on Russian spear fishing campaign against US elections. For some reason... She didn’t get asylum from Russia...



Intercept that popularized “RussiaGhazi”, turned over a whistle blower that leaked Russian info to the feds... funny that... remember that next time someone brow beats listening to CIA... intercept called the FBI...

[Theodarzna]

As opposed to taking Russia's side as they scream oppression, as they are oppressing you. No one is saying you have to cheer or be happy about it, but pretending that it is black and white, is a whole other ballpark of emotional dumbassery.
And yeah you get told that, because there is a difference between people and nations; if ya wanna try gotchas, please put at least a bit of effort into it.

The only people proclaiming a Black and White situation seems to be everyone else in this thread. Hell, the mere act of adding any kind of nuance or offering any sort of account of the world which does not cast America as literal paragons of virtue vanquishing Mini-Hitlers Putin as a reincarnation of Adolph Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini and an incarnation of evil is decried as being some kind of spy. I side with whom I think is acting in a way that seems justifiable. America is playing global Empire building where as Russia is reacting to a admittedly hostile country that has decided to harass them mainly as a distraction over internal political and economic problems. That is my view of all of this and why Americans at all are presently spellbound with Russia obsessions.

[Felya]

The only people proclaiming a Black and White situation seems to be everyone else in this thread. Hell, the mere act of adding any kind of nuance or offering any sort of account of the world which does not cast America as literal paragons of virtue vanquishing Mini-Hitlers Putin as a reincarnation of Adolph Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini and an incarnation of evil is decried as being some kind of spy. I side with whom I think is acting in a way that seems justifiable. America is playing global Empire building where as Russia is reacting to a admittedly hostile country that has decided to harass them mainly as a distraction over internal political and economic problems. That is my view of all of this and why Americans at all are presently spellbound with Russia obsessions.

You are inserting America into this, because without it, you are just defending Russian imperialism. As an example... am interested in your answer to this:

What country calls what? Can you be specific or it is too hard for you?

[Shalcker]

Oil, gas, and other petroleum products alone account for over 1/2 of Russia's exports. Most of the rest revolves around mineral extraction and processing. Without hydrocarbons, and the massive number of jobs that go with it, Russia is, as I said, screwed.

Russia was in no position to demand anything after the collapse of the USSR. We don't want to see Russia destroyed, that would allow China even easier access to Siberian materials. We just want it to stay out of the world's affairs beyond being a source of cheap raw materials. Russia knows full well that the US/NATO will never start an offensive war against it, even if Russia scrapped every tank and artillery piece it has.

Except as you yourself said being "source of cheap raw materials" is losing proposition long-term.

So, what you want is slow-burn destruction rather then fiery fast one - because you stand to lose a lot in the latter.

Is it a wonder that somehow Russians are not thrilled at this perspective, and want to take more active role?

Being world #2 military allows to do that in a lot of cases.

If just moving our forces around creates ripples like this thread, why should we stop doing that?

If we want to influence world around us to our ends, we got to exercise this muscle - as you blocked most other venues.

[Doctor Amadeus]

It's kind of interesting living in the same time that alt-right idiots would claim Nazi's weren't so bad while at the same time saying communism was the real threat. Except for the fact Putin literally is Mr KGB of the former Soviet Union and the same people suggesting he isn't a threat.

It really isn't possible to suggest Communist were a bit worse than Nazi's as a means of trying to come off objective. It isn't. Nazi's were the worst bust the Soviet Union wasn't some innocent puppy dog either and Putin is NOT our friend. That doesn't mean he has to come off as Satan himself.

But Putin in a Russian blood and bone and everything he does is for his people in his delusions at least. However that is it. He might not choose to be or show himself as a threat, that doesn't mean he is not our enemies or Hostile to the United States and it's Allies.

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is no different than the kind of bullshit Hitler did.

[Shalcker]

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is no different than the kind of bullshit Hitler did.

What kind of bullshit exactly?

Just equating Anschluss to Crimea? Because everything else seems different.

[Kellhound]

Except as you yourself said being "source of cheap raw materials" is losing proposition long-term.

So, what you want is slow-burn destruction rather then fiery fast one - because you stand to lose a lot in the latter.

Is it a wonder that somehow Russians are not thrilled at this perspective, and want to take more active role?

Being world #2 military allows to do that in a lot of cases.

If just moving our forces around creates ripples like this thread, why should we stop doing that?

If we want to influence world around us to our ends, we got to exercise this muscle - as you blocked most other venues.

Glad you finally admit Russia is screwed mid and long term.

Inserting your soon to be (in many ways already is) #3 military isn't going to gain Russia anything long term. All it will do is hasten your fall.

[Shalcker]

Glad you finally admit Russia is screwed mid and long term.

Nope, we aren't. One way or another we'll get through.

It's just that your logic nakedly presumes that destruction of Russia is your only goal - exactly as Russians say.

Inserting your soon to be (in many ways already is) #3 military isn't going to gain Russia anything long term. All it will do is hasten your fall.

If you would believe that then you would see it as doubly true for US though.

[Felya]

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is no different than the kind of bullshit Hitler did.

Actually, this is better than what Russia did to Ukraine around the time Hitler was rising. At least we don’t have people dying from starvation littering the streets, because USSR’s planning involved starving Ukrainians. Around 3.5 million people died during Holomodor...

It has been recognized as a genocide since 2006...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

A United Nations joint statement signed by 25 countries in 2003 declared that 7–10 million perished. Research has since narrowed the estimates to between 3.3 and 7.5 million. According to the findings of the Court of Appeal of Kyiv in 2010, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million direct famine deaths, and a further 6.1 million birth deficits.

“No shots fired”...

[Shalcker]

Actually, this is better than what Russia did to Ukraine around the time Hitler was rising. At least we don’t have people dying from starvation littering the streets, because USSR’s planning involved starving Ukrainians. Around 3.5 million people died during Holomodor...

It has been recognized as a genocide since 2006...

By 16 countries total... notably, not even US did that.

If you think Holodomor qualifies then certainly Bengal Famine does too.

[Felya]

By 16 countries total... notably, not even US did that.

If you think Holodomor qualifies then certainly Bengal Famine does too.

That’s fantastic... I like that your defense of killing 3.5 million Ukrainians, to squelch independence movements, is to point to Bengal Famine. Good one...

[Shalcker]

That’s fantastic... I like that your defense of killing 3.5 million Ukrainians, to squelch independence movements, is to point to Bengal Famine. Good one...

Do you agree that it qualifies by same measure? That we should condemn genocidal UK Churchil's regime?

Then at least you could be, as rare as it happens, consistent.

[Felya]

Do you agree that it qualifies by same measure? That we should condemn genocidal UK Churchil's regime?

Then at least you could be, as rare as it happens, consistent.

I don’t give a shit about your changing the topic... Get back to denying genocide...

Edit: This is further proof... Russia is completely incapable of anything, but blaming the west.

[Theodarzna]

What kind of bullshit exactly?

Just equating Anschluss to Crimea? Because everything else seems different.

Given which side of that conflict in Ukraine has active Neo-Nazi militias, it is rather hilarious sorts of projection.

[Forogil]

That’s fantastic... I like that your defense of killing 3.5 million Ukrainians, to squelch independence movements, is to point to Bengal Famine. Good one...

Yes, this statement of "what-about the Bengal Famine" is just deflection (and it was of course different; but never mind that)- I wonder if we should give this what-about-... a name...

[Felya]

Given which side of that conflict in Ukraine has active Neo-Nazi militias, it is rather hilarious sorts of projection.

Just to point it out... you have no issue agreeing with someone actively denying a genocide.

Edit: all the people you brow beat over genocide and American atrocities... 3.5 million Ukrainians killed, while your reply is Godwin...

[Easo]

Given which side of that conflict in Ukraine has active Neo-Nazi militias, it is rather hilarious sorts of projection.

Both. I clearly remember wannabe Nazis on Russian side as well. Theo, stop thinking everyone here is stupid. By now no one should be surprised that a civil war draws out the worst of trash from everyone involved, or that biggest fanatics are among the first to organize into armed units.