Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Barendon]

Isn't the current conflict because that neighborhood had been bought by a Jew or a group of Jews back during Ottoman Imperial days, but then was occupied and annexed by Jordan and then things got messy because Arabs settled there, but when Israel won in 67' the land was returned and the owner wanted to evict them, but the courts said no, and they didn't want to pay rent and its all a big legal battle over title owner and rent payments due and somehow this has become "ITS A GENOCIDE!" or something. This is a wild conflict. As far as I can tell, the land was owned legally by a Jewish person before Israel even existed and the current Arabs there are the people given it by the Jordanians when they occupied that part of Jerusalem between 49-67.

Yup, that is correct. But there are many other layers related. The occasion of the legal battle reaching a conclusion (which has been postponed. This hasn't helped to subside the conflict). The ramadan, and the "tik tok" intifida that happened a month ago. Also, palestinians had elections, and Hamas wanted to get the votes of west bank voters by "defending them". I can go on and on, but you relatively got it right there bud

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Excellent take, thanks for the info.

You didn't seem to dedicate any time for making your post, actually reading the article the OP posted, so I did the same with my answer ^^

[Theodarzna]

Yup, that is correct. But there are many other layers related. The occasion of the legal battle reaching a conclusion (which has been postponed. This hasn't helped to subside the conflict). The ramadan, and the "tik tok" intifida that happened a month ago. Also, palestinians had elections, and Hamas wanted to get the votes of west bank voters by "defending them". I can go on and on, but you relatively got it right there bud

Yeah, its badly timed, but like, what? Is the title owner supposed to simply surrender something he or she, or more aptly he or she bought well before the State of Israel even existed and in fact had occupied by an army that simply took it and settled some people in there, and now with title back in the hands of whoever had inherited the deed or bought it from however inherited the deed got tired of not collecting the rent as per a legal deal to keep the Arabs in their homes but ensure the owner is fairly compensated despite having had tenants assigned to them by the Jordanian Army and its occupation for two decades.

This all seems very kayfabe and kabuki theater going out of hand. Shocking that Hamas' PR stunt and an eviction dispute became likely the cause of a serious war.

[Barendon]

During all these decades, only 1 side has been the one that is actually been taking land. Turning this into a both sides issue is just idiotic.

When the palestinians don't work for peace, and instead support violence against jews then Israel receives a moral legitimacy to expand itself in non inhabited areas in the west bank. You can disagree with that, but in a peace agreement - Israel will have to let go of all that land. Israel has already shown it's capable of doing that, look at the gaza settelments being evacuated, and the sinai peninsula following the egypt-israel peace negotiations.

[JohnBrown1917]

When the palestinians don't work for peace, and instead support violence against jews then Israel receives a moral legitimacy to expand itself in non inhabited areas in the west bank. You can disagree with that, but in a peace agreement - Israel will have to let go of all that land. Israel has already shown it's capable of doing that, look at the gaza settelments being evacuated, and the sinai peninsula following the egypt-israel peace negotiations.

Working for peace is impossible if your land keeps been settled on and you keep getting evicted by a bunch of fascist shitstains.

[Barendon]

Yeah, its badly timed, but like, what? Is the title owner supposed to simply surrender something he or she, or more aptly he or she bought well before the State of Israel even existed and in fact had occupied by an army that simply took it and settled some people in there, and now with title back in the hands of whoever had inherited the deed or bought it from however inherited the deed got tired of not collecting the rent as per a legal deal to keep the Arabs in their homes but ensure the owner is fairly compensated despite having had tenants assigned to them by the Jordanian Army and its occupation for two decades.

This all seems very kayfabe and kabuki theater going out of hand. Shocking that Hamas' PR stunt and an eviction dispute became likely the cause of a serious war.

I agree. But the argument these houses were owned before Israel existed hence why it might not belong to their rightful owners anymore after it has been moved to Jordan in 1948 - What is the implication for the Palestinian homes and lands they claim to have had (and they had) before becoming refugees? Should they surrender their demands regarding that as well?

[downnola]

You didn't seem to dedicate any time for making your post, actually reading the article the OP posted, so I did the same with my answer ^^

I wasn't responding to his article. I was quoted by the OP from another thread and was responding to his line of argument. If you're going to butt into conversations at least try to understand the context of what's being said.

[Barendon]

Working for peace is impossible if your land keeps been settled on and you keep getting evicted by a bunch of fascist shitstains.

Yes, because the settlements were always there, and the Palestinians NEVER had a chance for a peace settlement with Israel (They had tons of chances). We're not talking tibetans here. The Palestinians tried to evict rightfully owned jewish lands way before Israel even existed, during the ottoman empire and the british mandate.

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I wasn't responding to his article. I was quoted by the OP from another thread and was responding to his line of argument. If you're going to butt into conversations at least try to understand the context of what's being said.

It doesn't matter what you responded to, you took zero effort forming your comment, as did I. Wanna keep arguing about it?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I don't see how it actually ends. Israel will not leave the land they settled. I don't see how you can have peace if someone is straight up taking your homeland. Top it off with the political instability in Israel I could see at least one of the sides bidding for power using this as "the great patriotic situation" for support.

[Barendon]

I don't see how it actually ends. Israel will not leave the land they settled. I don't see how you can have peace if someone is straight up taking your homeland. Top it off with the political instability in Israel I could see at least one of the sides bidding for power using this as "the great patriotic situation" for support.

They will leave most of the settlements and everyone knows that. The Palestinians were even offered that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan
Surprisingly, they didn't bite.

[Theodarzna]

I agree. But the argument these houses were owned before Israel existed hence why it might not belong to their rightful owners anymore after it has been moved to Jordan in 1948 - What is the implication for the Palestinian homes and lands they claim to have had (and they had) before becoming refugees? Should they surrender their demands regarding that as well?

It's a tough one. Personally I am less sympathetic to the Arabs given a lot of the push for a State of Israel probably wouldn't have occurred has there not been intermittent violence and attacks on Jews and a refusal to respect the idea that Jews could own land and be equal to the Arabs; that and the Jews had the money to buy land from the Ottomans. So the Arabs aren't exactly sympathetic angels in this conflict, plus if they had won in 48/49, or even 67, well we can take a guess what would have become of the population called Israeli's today.

I think a major complication is that very few of them actually had any legal title to and of the lands in a sense, most were not actually land owners. And this isn't necessarily like they didn't know you could own land like say Native Americans, it was just cheaper than paying Ottoman taxes which were punitively high.

This all is what I mean by this conflict being a way more tangled mess with very few angels to root for as much as some people try to do.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

They will leave most of the settlements and everyone knows that. The Palestinians were even offered that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan
Surprisingly, they didn't bite.

I mean in the polls they talk about in that link it was like 70% that were firmly against doing it. So while it might have been on the table I kind of get the feeling trust would be difficult with all things considered.

[Barendon]

It's a tough one. Personally I am less sympathetic to the Arabs given a lot of the push for a State of Israel probably wouldn't have occurred has there not been intermittent violence and attacks on Jews and a refusal to respect the idea that Jews could own land and be equal to the Arabs; that and the Jews had the money to buy land from the Ottomans. So the Arabs aren't exactly sympathetic angels in this conflict, plus if they had won in 48/49, or even 67, well we can take a guess what would have become of the population called Israeli's today.

I think a major complication is that very few of them actually had any legal title to and of the lands in a sense, most were not actually land owners. And this isn't necessarily like they didn't know you could own land like say Native Americans, it was just cheaper than paying Ottoman taxes which were punitively high.

This all is what I mean by this conflict being a way more tangled mess with very few angels to root for as much as some people try to do.

I completely agree. People often forget that the partition plan of 1947 gave the Arabs more than they could ever receive back nowdays, and they decided to attack. Multiple times. Their loss.

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I mean in the polls they talk about in that link it was like 60-80% that were firmly against doing it. So while it might have been on the table I kind of get the feeling trust would be difficult with all things considered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...ment_from_Gaza
This disengagement from gaza settlements occured against the popular opinion of citizens of Israel. It was one sided, and Israel did not gain any favor from Hamas for performing it. Yet they still did.
I can explain why the Israeli people are against these peace offers, if you are interested. The answer won't be because the Israelis are evil.

[PACOX]

A real political story but one that's really just a forever war.

People do seem to become more aware of Israel's nonsense each 'cycle'.

Blah blah but Hamas

Yes Hamas is shitty but the IDF and Israeli government are their greatest recruiters. When you're gasing, displacing, beating, ostracizing, shooting civilians you create militants. People stock giving a fuck about being rational and civil when you take everything away from them and back them into a corner.

Israel is an apartheid state.

[Barendon]

A real political story but one that's really just a forever war.

People do seem to become more aware of Israel's nonsense each 'cycle'.

Blah blah but Hamas

Yes Hamas is shitty but the IDF and Israeli government are their greatest recruiters. When you're gasing, displacing, beating, ostracizing, shooting civilians you create militants. People stock giving a fuck about being rational and civil when you take everything away from them and back them into a corner.

Israel is an apartheid state.

You have no clue of what is apartheid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List

[downnola]

It doesn't matter what you responded to, you took zero effort forming your comment, as did I. Wanna keep arguing about it?

It does matter what I responding to. I'm not going to write an essay when two sentences get the job done. I'm well aware that this conflict didn't start last month, so if you take issue with any of my stances, just say so and make a real point.

Since you'd rather beat around the bush and just spam the thread with nonsense, I'll just ask you a direct question: do you think bombing apartment buildings that house Hamas militants and families are justified? I'm not really into the United States droning neighborhoods that house Al'Qaeda members and killing innocents so I'm just taking a pretty well-defined stance against war crimes and fascist tactics. I'm not arguing that Hamas or Hezbollah are just innocent freedom fighters against Israeli aggression, but indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods in an effort to fight militants is not doing Israel any favors in its cause. They lose the moral high ground there, just like they lose it when they're caught on camera throwing tear gas into mosques or caught on camera beating people during evictions.

Yes, the situation is complicated and yes it dates back to WW1. We still very much live in a post-WW1/2 world. That doesn't excuse crime against humanity.

[Theodarzna]

I completely agree. People often forget that the partition plan of 1947 gave the Arabs more than they could ever receive back nowdays, and they decided to attack. Multiple times. Their loss.

To be honest to I'd say there is a good chance Hamas stirred this for electoral gains in the West Bank as mentioned previously, and I wouldn't be too shocked if Syria and Iran are helping out, especially in getting Hamas the arms and weapons to test against Israeli defenses but just mainly to fuck up Israel's tenuous peace alliances with the Sunni majority states like Jordan, the Saudi's, Egypt, UAE and a such. After all the Palestinians basically only have Iran, Syria, ect and someone is giving Hamas their military gear and keeps cutting the checks for them. Though this is more idle speculation. Hamas definitely wanted a war and spun a mountain out of a mole hill to get it. Iran is Hamas' ally, so I doubt they'd act to stir up a war without informing Iran. Syria might be too busy to give much real support. Russia too is allies of both, but is I'd imagine occupied with other bigger projects to work on.

[Barendon]

It does matter what I responding to. I'm not going to write an essay when two sentences get the job done. I'm well aware that this conflict didn't start last month, so if you take issue with any of my stances, just say so and make a real point.

Since you'd rather beat around the bush and just spam the thread with nonsense, I'll just ask you a direct question: do you think bombing apartment buildings that house Hamas militants and families are justified? I'm not really into the United States droning neighborhoods that house Al'Qaeda members and killing innocents so I'm just taking a pretty well-defined stance against war crimes and fascist tactics. I'm not arguing that Hamas or Hezbollah are just innocent freedom fighters against Israeli aggression, but indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods in an effort to fight militants is not doing Israel any favors in its cause. They lose the moral high ground there, just like they lose it when they're caught on camera throwing tear gas into mosques or caught on camera beating people during evictions.

Yes, the situation is complicated and yes it dates back to WW1. We still very much live in a post-WW1/2 world. That doesn't excuse crime against humanity.

Heh, stances. It seems you have issue with my stances, as you rather call my posts spam. Can you rebuttal any of my posts? Give it a shot before calling it spam.
For your question, you say " indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods". This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
is the "fascist tactics" you mention perhaps. If the IDF was indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods, you'd get more a hell lot of more people dead than what is currently reported to be around 70 casualties. Gaza is so condensed in population that you can easily kill whole families if you shoot one building down. Well, Israel is shooting buildings down. So yeah, I agree that Israel should be able to defend itself from rocket strikes aimed AT the civilian population and should do their best to both stop the rocket fires and prevent as many innocent casualties as possible. It's not possible to do it perfectly, obviously. As long as Hamas chooses to fight using civilians, there is no way Israel can prevent a loss of innocent lives.

[Bakis]

Maybe the Israeli king of corruption needed another event to grab the spotlife from his work.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...ment_from_Gaza
This disengagement from gaza settlements occured against the popular opinion of citizens of Israel. It was one sided, and Israel did not gain any favor from Hamas for performing it. Yet they still did.
I can explain why the Israeli people are against these peace offers, if you are interested. The answer won't be because the Israelis are evil.

Let us start with I never said the people of Israel or Israel itself was evil. That might be the direction you are taking it but I am not the platform to launch that from. But when someone is 70% unpopular within a country it gets really easy to see why someone wouldn't feel comfortable with getting into an agreement with it.

[Barendon]

To be honest to I'd say there is a good chance Hamas stirred this for electoral gains in the West Bank as mentioned previously, and I wouldn't be too shocked if Syria and Iran are helping out, especially in getting Hamas the arms and weapons to test against Israeli defenses but just mainly to fuck up Israel's tenuous peace alliances with the Sunni majority states like Jordan, the Saudi's, Egypt, UAE and a such. After all the Palestinians basically only have Iran, Syria, ect and someone is giving Hamas their military gear and keeps cutting the checks for them. Though this is more idle speculation. Hamas definitely wanted a war and spun a mountain out of a mole hill to get it. Iran is Hamas' ally, so I doubt they'd act to stir up a war without informing Iran. Syria might be too busy to give much real support. Russia too is allies of both, but is I'd imagine occupied with other bigger projects to work on.

Qatar is also financing Gaza and the west bank. And you'll be surprised to hear that Israel also assist hamas leaders with their monthly payments coming from the west bank, as well as providing electricity. Hezbollah is truly more of Iran's proxy in the region, and the Palestinian just use any help they can get from Israel's enemies.