Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Theodarzna]

Qatar is also financing Gaza and the west bank. And you'll be surprised to hear that Israel also assist hamas leaders with their monthly payments coming from the west bank, as well as providing electricity. Hezbollah is truly more of Iran's proxy in the region, and the Palestinian just use any help they can get from Israel's enemies.

Ah, Hezbollah, I know one of them was tied in to some kinda Patron-Client deal with Iran. Hamas I guess is the one with like no real friends.

[Rozz]

I don't see how it actually ends. Israel will not leave the land they settled. I don't see how you can have peace if someone is straight up taking your homeland. Top it off with the political instability in Israel I could see at least one of the sides bidding for power using this as "the great patriotic situation" for support.

As another user stated, the situation is so messy that it could easily end in the genocide of either 'losing party'. I can only judge based on recent misgivings, but I'm in favor of the US sitting it out. There is no situation in which US involvement ends with something good unless it leads to total de-escalation.

[Barendon]

Let us start with I never said the people of Israel or Israel itself was evil. That might be the direction you are taking it but I am not the platform to launch that from. But when someone is 70% unpopular within a country it gets really easy to see why someone wouldn't feel comfortable with getting into an agreement with it.

Even though I directly responded to you, I mentioned that to slightly sting the pro-Palestinian - anti-Israel readers roaming around.
The Israeli citizens voted yes for peace in 1992 with Yitzhak Rabin as prime minister, which led to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
Most of the population supported these agreeements. However - while the Oslo accords negotiations were onging you can see what the some of the Palestinian side did to prevent it. Look at the bombings happening from 1993- 1996. This led to the assassination of the Israel prime minister by a right-wing religious fanatic and since then the Israeli people have never really forgiven the Palestinians for that. The trust was shattered, with right wing parties leading Israeli votes ever since. (Barak was left wing and was elected in 2000, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada - yay)

[Low Hanging Fruit]

As another user stated, the situation is so messy that it could easily end in the genocide of either 'losing party'. I can only judge based on recent misgivings, but I'm in favor of the US sitting it out. There is no situation in which US involvement ends with something good unless it leads to total de-escalation.

Oh for sure, I don't want the US involved at all. For one it isn't our conflict. But we know how these things work. When the USA gets involved we are the evil empire that are world policing and when we don't we are not responsible and causing problems for people by looking the other way.

[PACOX]

Heh, stances. It seems you have issue with my stances, as you rather call my posts spam. Can you rebuttal any of my posts? Give it a shot before calling it spam.
For your question, you say " indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods". This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
is the "fascist tactics" you mention perhaps. If the IDF was indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods, you'd get more a hell lot of more people dead than what is currently reported to be around 70 casualties. Gaza is so condensed in population that you can easily kill whole families if you shoot one building down. Well, Israel is shooting buildings down. So yeah, I agree that Israel should be able to defend itself from rocket strikes aimed AT the civilian population and should do their best to both stop the rocket fires and prevent as many innocent casualties as possible. It's not possible to do it perfectly, obviously. As long as Hamas chooses to fight using civilians, there is no way Israel can prevent a loss of innocent lives.

Your posts are nonsensical as if linking a wiki article is any sort of actual justification.

Does roof knocking justify leveling homes and livelihoods?
Oh look, Israel has decided to destroy my entire home because there may or not be a Hamas operative in the same complex. Totally fine. But hurry up grandma if you don't want to be bombed, Israel says it's time for us to move out!

Gaza is so condensed in population that you can easily kill whole families if you shoot one building down.

[downnola]

Heh, stances. It seems you have issue with my stances, as you rather call my posts spam. Can you rebuttal any of my posts? Give it a shot before calling it spam.
For your question, you say " indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods". This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
is the "fascist tactics" you mention perhaps. If the IDF was indiscriminately bombing neighborhoods, you'd get more a hell lot of more people dead than what is currently reported to be around 70 casualties. Gaza is so condensed in population that you can easily kill whole families if you shoot one building down. Well, Israel is shooting buildings down. So yeah, I agree that Israel should be able to defend itself from rocket strikes aimed AT the civilian population and should do their best to both stop the rocket fires and prevent as many innocent casualties as possible. It's not possible to do it perfectly, obviously. As long as Hamas chooses to fight using civilians, there is no way Israel can prevent a loss of innocent lives.

"Roof knocking", by your own Wikipedia article language, argues that the practice is indiscriminate bombing:

The practice has been controversial, as many human rights and news organizations have shown the 'roof knocks' to kill and injure civilians.[14] In July, 2014, Amnesty International called for a United Nations investigation into what it alleged were war crimes committed by Israeli fighters, and Philip Luther, Middle East and North Africa Programme Director for the organization, condemned the practice.[23] The spokesperson for Gaza Health Ministry indicated that the same missiles used to give warnings are also used in assassinations, resulting in dozens of casualties and deaths where "remains were scattered, making it impossible to identify them immediately".[24]

The Goldstone Report commented that civilians inside their homes "cannot be expected to know whether a small explosion is a warning of an impending attack or part of an actual attack". It stated that the practice is not an effective advance warning, and is instead likely to "cause terror and confuse the affected civilians".[25]

The "human shield" argument is old and just as ridiculous when it was aimed at Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Israel/Lebanon: Israeli Indiscriminate Attacks Killed Most Civilians
No Evidence of Widespread Hezbollah ‘Shielding’

Israel’s indiscriminate airstrikes, not Hezbollah’s shielding as claimed by Israeli officials, caused most of the approximately 900 civilian deaths in Lebanon during the July-August 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Human Rights Watch investigated more than 500 of the deaths.

“Israel wrongfully acted as if all civilians had heeded its warnings to evacuate southern Lebanon when it knew they had not, disregarding its continuing legal duty to distinguish between military targets and civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “Issuing warnings doesn’t make indiscriminate attacks lawful.”

The 249-page report, “Why They Died: Civilian Casualties in Lebanon during the 2006 War,” represents the most extensive investigation to date of civilian deaths in Lebanon during the war. In five months of research, Human Rights Watch investigated 94 cases of air, artillery and ground attacks by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to discern the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 510 civilians and 51 combatants, nearly half the at least 1,109 Lebanese deaths during the conflict. Of the approximately 510 Lebanese civilian deaths investigated by Human Rights Watch, at least 300 were women or children. Human Rights Watch visited more than 50 Lebanese villages and interviewed 316 victims and eyewitnesses, as well as 39 military experts, journalists and Israeli, Lebanese government and Hezbollah officials.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/09/05/...ost-civilians#

I gotta say, just shrugging off 70 civilian deaths, including children, isn't a great rebuttal.

[PACOX]

Oh for sure, I don't want the US involved at all. For one it isn't our conflict. But we know how these things work. When the USA gets involved we are the evil empire that are world policing and when we don't we are not responsible and causing problems for people by looking the other way.

The US is involved, just not with actual boots on the ground. The same way the US is involved in SA bullshit as well.

The US is involved when we send tons of aid their way, block/misdirect any forms of international pressure or criticism. When we have politicians, even the state department, saying that criticism against Israel is anti-semitic.

[Barendon]

"Roof knocking", by your own Wikipedia article language, argues that the practice is indiscriminate bombing:

While this method isn't perfect, Israel doesn't have to use this tactic at all. They still do. I also said civilian casualties are unavoidable but can be reduced.

The "human shield" argument is old and just as ridiculous when it was aimed at Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Explain.

I gotta say, just shrugging off 70 civilian deaths, including children, isn't a great rebuttal.

So you say Israel never hit the terrorists calling the whole of the 70 people dead civlians? No, most of them are terrorists. And I am not shrugging it off, I don't see any other way of action Israel can take when a terrorist group is firing rockets at its cities. Kids have died on the israeli side in this conflict.

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Your posts are nonsensical as if linking a wiki article is any sort of actual justification.

Does roof knocking justify leveling homes and livelihoods?
Oh look, Israel has decided to destroy my entire home because there may or not be a Hamas operative in the same complex. Totally fine. But hurry up grandma if you don't want to be bombed, Israel says it's time for us to move out!

You can be fine with having your own cities openly bombarded by terrorist groups, I think Israel should not be fine with it.

[Easo]

After few days to a week Hamas will start running out of missiles and, their losses mounting skyhigh, will agree to peace, repeat this in 10 years ad infinitum.
P.S.
I was wondering when someone would make this thread, usually takes a lot less.

All started because Isreal evicted a bunch of arabs in East-Jerusalem to make way for Isreali Settlers.

And this, people, is how being uninformed, but with an agenda looks like.

So tell me, at which point you wanna actually start looking into this case? I can write a short summary, but there are the main points, which admitedly have pretty shitty reporting in global media:

1. Houses cannot really be sold to a Jew in East Jerusalem by Arabs (unless they wanna get lynched), but there is a workaround if there are no documents proving they actually had the properties in Ottoman Empire/British Protectorate/whatever - involves selling them to foreigners, who are not Jews. Then they sell it to the said Jews and they can move in. Price paid is way above the marketprice, all parties involved wins. Everyone knows about the scheme - Fatah, Hamas, Israel. Everyone pretends, because cash does not stink (duh). Alternative is also moving abroad after getting cash for the house, in case of straight deal.
2. Jews come, have all the papers with the signature of the Arab selling it (fully legal, I have to add this, but seriously, fully legal, no one has been swindled, without irony or sarcasm) and wants to move in their new property - from there it can go sideways, as it did in this case - current inhabitants do not want to move out. Easiest way to do that? Claim that Jewish settlers are stealing their homes where they have lived forever. This goes to court, through all instances all the way up to the Supreme Court of Israel. In the meantime no one can actually tries to evict them or attempts to. This fucking case started 10 years ago and had arrived before Supreme Court.
3. Mahmoud Abbas (president of Palestine) has the first Palestinian election in 15 years coming up and it has been postoned for way too long. Ratings of his Fatah party are in the shitter and he knows that Hamas, the rulers of Gaza, are likely to win the vote and take over (and we know how that went in 2006 in Gaza...). But there is this case about the "Jews attempting to steal Palestinian homes". Perfect. "Boys, let's go to Temple Mount, start some rioting, attack police below." That happens, police responds, those boys run to mosques up there and hide in them. Police tries to get them out - news report Israeli supressing Muslim access to holy sites. More rioting.
Abbas hopes that his tough public stance agaisnt this will now help in elections.
4. Hamas are also interested in the upcoming elections and wants support increased in their favour. "If you (Israel) do not leave the Muslim inhabitants of those houses alone, you will pay for that/we will protect them". Hamas also have absolutely catastrophical issues with managing civilian goverment, with or without Israeli blockade. Need to take off the pressure/blame and point it somewhere else. Obviously Israel works best.
While Israeli Supreme Court has moved the case to later date and no one is right now evicting anyone, Hamas does Hamas and starts some rocket attacks to show their point.
5. And finally, the side of Israel - Bibi (PM of Israel) has some issues like corruption case and inability to create goverment which he would like to very much postpone. Nothing helps drive up ratings and support as tough response to Hamas doing the stinky things they do. Time to bomb the shit out of some terrorists.
6. ???
7. Profit
P.S.
There are reasons to think this actually did not start this Monday, but was slowly began at least 2 weeks ago, when Hamas started to prepare.


Now half of this forum can accuse me of hating Arabs/Muslims, supporting the genocide, or whatever, if you want to. Or, you can decide to check what I wrote yourselves, that this is not simply about some evicted (not) Palestinians.

[Theodarzna]

As another user stated, the situation is so messy that it could easily end in the genocide of either 'losing party'. I can only judge based on recent misgivings, but I'm in favor of the US sitting it out. There is no situation in which US involvement ends with something good unless it leads to total de-escalation.

I'd go so far as to say there probably isn't a single outside force with credibility with both sides to be seen as a neutral/fair arbitrator for the conflict. US definitely getting involved would be a disaster for the United States.

[PACOX]

You can be fine with having your own cities openly bombarded by terrorist groups, I think Israel should not be fine with it.

Who said anything about being anyone being fine with the rockets flying at Israel? The point is Israel's disregard for civilian lives while painting the facade that 'roof knocking' makes up for that. Its not like the IDF isn't a capable military force, they don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians as they've demonstrated time and again.

[Barendon]

Who said anything about being anyone being fine with the rockets flying at Israel? The point is Israel's disregard for civilian lives while painting the facade that 'roof knocking' makes up for that. Its not like the IDF isn't a capable military force, they don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians as they've demonstrated time and again.

What would convince you otherwise? Zero civilian casulaties? Well good luck throwing any firearms at gaza and not killing at least 5 people in the proccess. Israel has a right to defend itself and retaliate when it is attacked by rockets. There will be civilian casualties and those cannot be avoided, unless you have any better offer?

[Theodarzna]

What would convince you otherwise? Zero civilian casulaties? Well good luck throwing any firearms at gaza and not killing at least 5 people in the proccess. Israel has a right to defend itself and retaliate when it is attacked by rockets. There will be civilian casualties and those cannot be avoided, unless you have any better offer?

Plus Israel does try to avoid killing Civilians and makes the effort, Hamas declared Israeli women and children and average civilians to be fair game and wantonly attacks civilians at any opportunity possible.

[JohnBrown1917]

Oh for sure, I don't want the US involved at all. For one it isn't our conflict. But we know how these things work. When the USA gets involved we are the evil empire that are world policing and when we don't we are not responsible and causing problems for people by looking the other way.

The Us is already involved by allying itself to Israel and providing them with military equipment.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/12/p...ans/index.html

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Plus Israel does try to avoid killing Civilians and makes the effort, Hamas declared Israeli women and children and average civilians to be fair game and wantonly attacks civilians at any opportunity possible.

You really believe the lies of fascists? I'm sure all the kids that keep getting shot by Isreali military/cops are a good sign of that.

[Endus]

As long as Hamas chooses to fight using civilians, there is no way Israel can prevent a loss of innocent lives.

What would convince you otherwise? Zero civilian casulaties? Well good luck throwing any firearms at gaza and not killing at least 5 people in the proccess. Israel has a right to defend itself and retaliate when it is attacked by rockets. There will be civilian casualties and those cannot be avoided, unless you have any better offer?

All you're expressing here is a casual indifference to the deaths of innocent people, as long as they're Palestinians.

There is a way for Israel to prevent the loss of innocent lives. Don't use tactics that take innocent lives. Israel refuses, because it prefers the tactics with collateral damage attached.

And sure; Gaza's super dense. Maybe you shouldn't be engaging with tactics and weapons you know will cause collateral damage, then. This isn't an accidental choice; Israel has decided killing innocents is a price they're willing to pay. And you're okay with that.

There are other options. They're just not as convenient, and may come at the expense of Israeli soldiers. Who at least signed up for that kind of duty, unlike the innocent civilians currently dying.

[JohnBrown1917]

And this, people, is how being uninformed, but with an agenda looks like.

So tell me, at which point you wanna actually start looking into this case? I can write a short summary, but there are the main points, which admitedly have pretty shitty reporting in global media:

However you want to justify Israelis taking over more and more land from the Palestinians.
They are nothing more than shitty excuses. Point remains that East-Jerusalem was taken from them by Israel. I reallty don't care that they legally own it by Israeli law or whatever the fuck, They keep pulling the exact same shit in the west bank, taking away homes from people who have been living in them for generations just so that some scumbag can get a cheap house.

But yes, English media,as usual, has been rather biased towards Israel.

[Barendon]

You really believe the lies of fascists? I'm sure all the kids that keep getting shot by Isreali military/cops are a good sign of that.

Because Israel enjoys and celebrates the deaths of children and civilians. Because it's fascist and evil . Right, I am convinced. Yes, children and civilians die in wars. What a big surprise.

[Endus]

Plus Israel does try to avoid killing Civilians and makes the effort, Hamas declared Israeli women and children and average civilians to be fair game and wantonly attacks civilians at any opportunity possible.

"Pay no attention to our war crimes, pay attention to THEIR war crimes" is a deeply shitty argument.

[downnola]

While this method isn't perfect, Israel doesn't have to use this tactic at all. They still do. I also said civilian casualties are unavoidable but can be reduced.

Bullshit, it's not a defensible tactic whatsoever. It's literally a war crime. Claiming it's unavoidable because Hamas "use civilians as human shields" is a bullshit excuse for shelling neighborhoods. It's bloodthirsty crimes against humanity, end of story.

Explain.

I'll just link it again since you couldn't be bothered to read it the first time.

Israel/Lebanon: Israeli Indiscriminate Attacks Killed Most Civilians
No Evidence of Widespread Hezbollah ‘Shielding’

Israel’s indiscriminate airstrikes, not Hezbollah’s shielding as claimed by Israeli officials, caused most of the approximately 900 civilian deaths in Lebanon during the July-August 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Human Rights Watch investigated more than 500 of the deaths.

“Israel wrongfully acted as if all civilians had heeded its warnings to evacuate southern Lebanon when it knew they had not, disregarding its continuing legal duty to distinguish between military targets and civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “Issuing warnings doesn’t make indiscriminate attacks lawful.”

The 249-page report, “Why They Died: Civilian Casualties in Lebanon during the 2006 War,” represents the most extensive investigation to date of civilian deaths in Lebanon during the war. In five months of research, Human Rights Watch investigated 94 cases of air, artillery and ground attacks by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to discern the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 510 civilians and 51 combatants, nearly half the at least 1,109 Lebanese deaths during the conflict. Of the approximately 510 Lebanese civilian deaths investigated by Human Rights Watch, at least 300 were women or children. Human Rights Watch visited more than 50 Lebanese villages and interviewed 316 victims and eyewitnesses, as well as 39 military experts, journalists and Israeli, Lebanese government and Hezbollah officials.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/09/05/...ost-civilians#

So you say Israel never hit the terrorists calling the whole of the 70 people dead civlians? No, most of them are terrorists. And I am not shrugging it off, I don't see any other way of action Israel can take when a terrorist group is firing rockets at its cities. Kids have died on the israeli side in this conflict.

Where are you getting the death counts from? How are you sure how many of the civilian deaths "are terrorists"? You have no way of knowing, you're just pulling that right out of your ass.

Hamas fired the rockets after Israeli fighter jets bombed apartment buildings and homes in Gaza. They racked up 30-40 deaths and injuries in the hundreds before the rockets were fired. That doesn't justify Hamas rocketing Israel indiscriminately and killing children in the process, but you can definitely stop spinning those Palestinian deaths as a result of the rocketing.

[Barendon]

All you're expressing here is a casual indifference to the deaths of innocent people, as long as they're Palestinians.

There is a way for Israel to prevent the loss of innocent lives. Don't use tactics that take innocent lives. Israel refuses, because it prefers the tactics with collateral damage attached.

And sure; Gaza's super dense. Maybe you shouldn't be engaging with tactics and weapons you know will cause collateral damage, then. This isn't an accidental choice; Israel has decided killing innocents is a price they're willing to pay. And you're okay with that.

There are other options. They're just not as convenient, and may come at the expense of Israeli soldiers. Who at least signed up for that kind of duty, unlike the innocent civilians currently dying.

Sure, your country can choose the enemy's country civilians over their own soldiers during a war. I don't think ANY country or state has performed what you just described.