Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[downnola]

I'd go so far as to say there probably isn't a single outside force with credibility with both sides to be seen as a neutral/fair arbitrator for the conflict. US definitely getting involved would be a disaster for the United States.

The problem is they are getting involved by continually supporting Israel when this shit happens both diplomatically and financially. Do you realize how much aid the United States gives Israel?

[Barendon]

Bullshit, it's not a defensible tactic whatsoever. It's literally a war crime. Claiming it's unavoidable because Hamas "use civilians as human shields" is a bullshit excuse for shelling neighborhoods. It's bloodthirsty crimes against humanity, end of story.

Civilians die in wars. Provide a better solution and show me where and when it was used by another state.

Where are you getting the death counts from? How are you sure how many of the civilian deaths "are terrorists"? You have no way of knowing, you're just pulling that right out of your ass.

Hamas fired the rockets after Israeli fighter jets bombed apartment buildings and homes in Gaza. They racked up 30-40 deaths and injuries in the hundreds before the rockets were fired. That doesn't justify Hamas rocketing Israel indiscriminately and killing children in the process but you can definitely stop spinning those Palestinian deaths as a result of the rocketing.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...mas-commanders

Gaza’s Ministry of Health said the overall death toll since the latest offensive began stood at least 65, including 16 children. At least 365 people have been wounded.

You'd be sure they'd write more about the Palestinians civilian side casualties if there were more.

[Theodarzna]

You really believe the lies of fascists? I'm sure all the kids that keep getting shot by Isreali military/cops are a good sign of that.

Well I don't see any evidence other than "Those perfidious Israeli's are deceiving us with tricks and lies", where as statements by Arab leaders and clerics and the like are out in the open about who is fine with killing the others civilians.

[Endus]

Sure, your country can choose the enemy's country civilians over their own soldiers during a war. I don't think ANY country or state has performed what you just described.

The Geneva Conventions aren't exactly new ideas, and the Fourth is pretty specifically relevant.

If you're attacking enemy civilians to protect your own soldiers, that's a violation of international treaty law, and has been for the better part of a century. It's a war crime. You're just admitting that Israel is deliberately committing war crimes because it doesn't value Palestinian lives.

[Easo]

All you're expressing here is a casual indifference to the deaths of innocent people, as long as they're Palestinians.

What alternative tools? Name them. Because I for one do not know anything that can magically take out a rocket launcher or ammunition dump without any kind of explosion occuring.

Who said anything about being anyone being fine with the rockets flying at Israel? The point is Israel's disregard for civilian lives while painting the facade that 'roof knocking' makes up for that. Its not like the IDF isn't a capable military force, they don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians as they've demonstrated time and again.

Oh fucking just stop. 500 air strikes by Israel and some 60 dead? Should be obvious that numbers imply maximum attempt to avoid civilian casualties. Leaflets, SMS and phone calls, roof knocking. No one in the world even does that much. You have no idea how many would be dead if Israel actually did not care, do you?
And believing what Hamas says automatically implies that you are not thinking objectively or even trying it. Hamas is more than well known to lie, lie and lie some more, aside from all the other things like child soldiers and ammo dumps under schools, and so on.

Oh yea, up to 1/3 of the rockets do not leave Gaza at all, falling back in it or just blowing up on launch. Should I explain what happens then, with launchers between appartment houses?

However you want to justify Isrealies taking over more and more land from the Palestinians.
They are nothing more than shitty excuses.

But yes, English media,as usual, has been rather biased towards Isreal.

Excellent, you don't want to hear because REASONS, you choose not to hear. This is half of this forum, you want to shit on Israel and Israel only. Meh, who cares if the eviction is actually not an apartheid and the houses do belong to Jews and there are political games in Palestinian leadership - gotta rage on Israel!

[JohnBrown1917]

Well I don't see any evidence other than "Those perfidious Israeli's are deceiving us with tricks and lies", where as statements by Arab leaders and clerics and the like are out in the open about who is fine with killing the others civilians.

If you ignore all the countless civilian deaths and all the accounts of kids who just get straight up shot.

[Barendon]

The Geneva Conventions aren't exactly new ideas, and the Fourth is pretty specifically relevant.

If you're attacking enemy civilians to protect your own soldiers, that's a violation of international treaty law, and has been for the better part of a century. It's a war crime. You're just admitting that Israel is deliberately committing war crimes because it doesn't value Palestinian lives.

Israel is not trying to attack enemy civilians, Israel tries to attack terrorists that attack them. American use of drones to attack targets is a perfect example of that. Every country or state will choose to protect their soldiers or citizens over their enemies. What you're suggesting is absurd.

[JohnBrown1917]

Excellent, you don't want to hear because REASONS, you choose not to hear. This is half of this forum, you want to shit on Israel and Israel only. Meh, who cares if the eviction is actually not an apartheid and the houses do belong to Jews and there are political games in Palestinian leadership - gotta rage on Israel!

I heard you clearly, I just disagree that they are good reasons to kick out the arabs who have been living on that land for generations. You enjoy supporting your fascist apartheid regime, but I will not.


And yes, I will rage on any state that takes part in ethnic cleansing or apartheid, got a problem with that?
And only been shitting on Israel? Pretty sure ive been doing the same for India, Saudi Arabia, the US, Myanmar and whoever else im missing.

[Bakis]

While this method isn't perfect, Israel doesn't have to use this tactic at all. They still do. I also said civilian casualties are unavoidable but can be reduced.

Can be?

As horrendous as Hamaz rockets are it somehow always end up with an unproportional response.
And that is leaving aside the landgrabbing that cause most of the rocket attacks to begin with.

[Endus]

What alternative tools? Name them. Because I for one do not know anything that can magically take out a rocket launcher or ammunition dump without any kind of explosion occuring.

Soldiers seem like the super obvious answer, holding fire unless an actual target is confirmed. But you don't want to use such measures, because it's not as convenient as an air strike that only risks killing Palestinians that you don't really consider to be "people" in the first place.

Also, not taking or permitting actions that will only serve to inflame tensions. That'd help. Israel's government is far from an innocent in these issues; they've been engaged in a multitude of war crimes for decades, with little to no consequence.

That's largely why I support a return to the 1967 borders.

[Barendon]

Can be?

As horrendous as Hamaz rockets are it somehow always end up with an unproportional response.
And that is leaving aside the landgrabbing that cause most of the rocket attacks to begin with.

Would a proprotional response cease the attacks?

[Bakis]

Would a proprotional response cease the attacks?

Would a tit for tat have less of a chanse?

[Theodarzna]

If you ignore all the countless civilian deaths and all the accounts of kids who just get straight up shot.

Accounts, yeah there are plenty of stories, there are plenty of stories of Arabs blowing up school buses and firing their haphazard Iranian missiles at Israeli civilians. And there is the words of Arab leaders and clerics celebrating this and calling it a noble act when they do it. Sorry, It's just not every clear cut and the Arabs are hardly angels in this either.

- - - Updated - - -

Would a tit for tat have less of a chanse?

I mean what would a proportional response be? Blowing up a few of their school buses and just aimlessly firing missiles loaded with ball barrings into whatever populated area they live in be more acceptable?

[Endus]

Israel is not trying to attack enemy civilians, Israel tries to attack terrorists that attack them.

If you find anything but 0% civilian casualties acceptable, then that's a problem. You may not be targeting civilians, but you're certainly not making that significant an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

American use of drones to attack targets is a perfect example of that.

Derailing with a separate issue I would also take issue with isn't gonna help your case. If you think I support American imperialism overseas, you haven't paid much attention to my posting habits.

Every country or state will choose to protect their soldiers or citizens over their enemies. What you're suggesting is absurd.

The Geneva Conventions require otherwise. Any country that isn't in favor of outright war crimes and genocide is aware of this.

If you think the Geneva Conventions are "absurd", that says everything anyone needs to know about you.

[Rennadrel]

Using that war as a justification for the horrible shit the Israeli government (a far-right nationalist government, by any definition) and some of its citizens has done in the last week is just absurd. If we go by that logic, Israel can do anything it wants to any country in the Middle East and it's just "defending itself."

So what does that make Hamas? You know, a government internationally recognized as a terrorist organization? One that constantly fires rockets at Israel to poke the bear yet has the audacity to whine when that bear bites back with significantly more force? Yeah, get lost with that nonsense. There's no good winner here, and you are a hypocrite if you think Israel defending themselves from militant and rocket strikes on their people makes them nationalists, then so are the Palestinians for fighting back against Israel's encroachment on their land.

[JohnBrown1917]

Accounts, yeah there are plenty of stories, there are plenty of stories of Arabs blowing up school buses and firing their haphazard Iranian missiles at Israeli civilians. And there is the words of Arab leaders and clerics celebrating this and calling it a noble act when they do it. Sorry, It's just not every clear cut and the Arabs are hardly angels in this either.

Yes, thats nice, this is about the Isreali ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Whataboutism from what other countries do is hardly relevant.
Or can they kill all the brown people they want because other people want them death?

But you want to put your hand in the sand and just ignore it when the IDF shoots at kids, be my guest. Not like this is the first time you expressed fascist opinions.

[downnola]

Civilians die in wars. Provide a better solution and show me where and when it was used by another state.

Last I checked, Israel and Palestine aren't officially at war. Israel seems hell-bent on making it a reality though. A solution? Don't bomb apartment buildings with families living in them. Boy, that was hard.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...mas-commanders


You'd be sure they'd write more about the Palestinians civilian side casualties if there were more.

And the only death count they provide in your article is by naming one Hamas commander. 1 out of 65 death and 365 wounded isn't "most" like you claimed. You still haven't backed that comment up with any thing substantial.

[Shadowferal]

Hmf...move Israel to a Pacific island and problem solved. Assuming Israel is interested in peace. Which would be a first in their entire history.

[Endus]

I'd also like to take a moment as an aside, not directly quoting anyone, to remind people I came into this with a "both sides' leadership is awful" stance. I'm focusing on Israeli defenses because we have people supporting Israeli war crimes. If anyone were really supporting Hamas' rocket attacks as a justified response, I'd crap on that too, for the same reasons. It's just that no one is.

[JohnBrown1917]

So what does that make Hamas? You know, a government internationally recognized as a terrorist organization? One that constantly fires rockets at Israel to poke the bear yet has the audacity to whine when that bear bites back with significantly more force? Yeah, get lost with that nonsense. There's no good winner here, and you are a hypocrite if you think Israel defending themselves from militant and rocket strikes on their people makes them nationalists, then so are the Palestinians for fighting back against Israel's encroachment on their land.

Israel started this shit by taking the land and homes from countless people, trying to make them out to be the defenders is laughable even if Hamas is not justified.