Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[jonnysensible]

Given Israeli courts have been pretty good at honoring land titles even earned via an Antisemitic laws such as the Jordanian occupation; even granting these tenants the right to stay and declaring their leases valid even though they were forced onto the owner, I suspect if these families had proof they owned anything they probably could get an Israeli court to grant it to them.

But I suspect most of the claims of "That is mine" is a bit of a 'blood and soil' sort of claim and not a 'I have a deed to that!' kind of claim.

Palestinians have no legal means to reclaim property they lost to Jewish families in the late 1940s. 'I suspect' is doing a lot of work there.

[Slant]

No good guys to see here. The US really needs to find a reason to quit the mideast asap.

I get that the comparison is tempting, but let's not equate a few dozen deaths with a 6 million victims genocide. I know, it's easy to lose sight of the big picture, but these comparisons don't quite sit right. Screams hyperbole to me.

[Theodarzna]

Palestinians have no legal means to reclaim property they lost to Jewish families in the late 1940s. 'I suspect' is doing a lot of work there.

Do they have a deed to the land? I think that is a simple question.

[Endus]

Do they have a deed to the land? I think that is a simple question.

It's only "simple" if you literally do not understand what a deed is.

A deed is just a piece of paper that says "the government at the time of this issuance agreed that the property detailed herein belonged to X at that time".

If the government changes, or decides to revoke it, or just flatly does not accept the validity of the deed, it's meaningless, because the core agreement it describes is not relevant.

In context, you're asking if the Palestinians living there had deeds that would be honored by the Israeli government, to which the answer is obviously "no". But that doesn't mean they don't have deeds to the property, it just means the Israeli government doesn't respect those deeds any more.

[Ripster42]

Do they have a deed to the land? I think that is a simple question.

Remind me, who controls legality?

[JohnBrown1917]

I get that the comparison is tempting, but let's not equate a few dozen deaths with a 6 million victims genocide. I know, it's easy to lose sight of the big picture, but these comparisons don't quite sit right. Screams hyperbole to me.

A few dozen deaths really underestimates the horror Gaza and the west bank have gone through these past few decades.

[jonnysensible]

Do they have a deed to the land? I think that is a simple question.

Might want to look up Absentees Property Law.

[Thepersona]

I can only say

Viva Palestina libre, muerte al apartheid israelí.

Get fucked, you right wing racist bastards of the IDF, and you too, evil idiots of Hamas.

[Endus]

I get that the comparison is tempting, but let's not equate a few dozen deaths with a 6 million victims genocide. I know, it's easy to lose sight of the big picture, but these comparisons don't quite sit right. Screams hyperbole to me.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

More than 3000 Palestinian civilian deaths since 2008. 900 of those children. Another 1500 deaths whose classification is "disputed", where Israel claims they were combatants but this is not widely accepted.

It isn't a "few dozen", and trying to convince people to hold off on condemning it until it hits the millions of deaths scale is . . . unconscionable.

[Theodarzna]

Remind me, who controls legality?

Are we claiming the Arabs were unaware of land ownership? Like is this one of those "Like the Native Americans...." kind of comparisons? Because that doesn't really work when both parties have the exact same concept of land and title ownership law. It wasn't as if this region didn't have a long legal custom of buying and owning land. They knew what land ownership was/is, and the Israeli's have honored even leases and land titles granted by explicitly anti-semitic legal codes such as the Jordanian Army during their occupation of the East, or even Ottoman land titles and British Mandate land titles. And in the case of this apartment building in East Jerusalem, the title was purchased during Ottoman Imperial rule and under Ottoman Law, so this isn't even something Israel is that involved in. The now expired leases are granted by the Jordanian Army and the land title is from the Ottomans.

Plus, dude, if we are claiming the Israeli court is biased, why have they been moving heaven and Earth for these Arab families whose leases were issued by an enemy army even, and the only demand they made of the family was "Well, you do have to respect the title holder and actually pay them rent, and as long as you do that you can't be evicted ever!" and they didn't want to honor that at all. Like come on dude, the Israeli's have been freakishly accommodating.

[Easo]

I wonder where all this energy was when Karabakh war was going on. 7-8 thousand dead, more than ten thousand wounded, some head cutting amd desecration, and actual geopolitical changes, all the fine stuff. Comparing to that current conflict is peanuts. Where were all the loud voices then? Hmm?
Oh, right... Because this is about Israel, isn't it?

I'm really getting sick of repeating myself. .

Oh no, someone posted a wrong tweet. End of the world I say! /s
Human rights group have been obsessed with Israel for years. But houses become military targets as soon as there is someone hiding weapons, or has command center, or weapons manufacturing in the basement. "Both sides" do not really work in this conflict, what Hamas does cannot be compared to Israel's actions. You can try, if you want to. I will say the same to you as to Endus - lalala land is not reality.

I can’t think of a reason to not give Palestinians iron dome. It would deter violence from sparking due to Israeli brazenness and it would save lives. But no....

Did you seriously sugest Israel should give Iron Dome to Palestinians? To Hamas??? I can't even.

My suspicion is that they are out of missiles or running low on them and are probably facing a serious strategic route. All over like eight families who either are outright squatting, or just staying beyond an expired lease because they didn't want to pay rent to a guy based on his ethnicity.

Yep, they usually do this when it happens. Especially now with Israeli troops arriving at Gaza border. We are very close to ground operation and it seems unlikely it will be cancelled.

also the recent court ruling, and all those viral vids of people admitting they're stealing the land and houses and why are you getting mad at me? if I don't steal your house then someone else will.

The recent ruling is bad because Arabs lost it or because the court process was "not done right by the book"?

[Themius]

I get that the comparison is tempting, but let's not equate a few dozen deaths with a 6 million victims genocide. I know, it's easy to lose sight of the big picture, but these comparisons don't quite sit right. Screams hyperbole to me.

This conflict has only claimed a few dozen? have you already forgotten the bombings of gaza, the targeting strikes Israel did to destroy water treatment plants (a war crime)? We have a huge topic on it...

[Theodarzna]

Might want to look up Absentees Property Law.

So, there is no title deeds or proof of ownership, its just a claim with nothing backing it. In the case we are talking about here, its people with expired leases, issued by the Jordanian army, who've refused to pay rent for decades based on the owners race. And the building was bought a fifty plus years before Israel even existed? What are you on about here?

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Yep, they usually do this when it happens. Especially now with Israeli troops arriving at Gaza border. We are very close to ground operation and it seems unlikely it will be cancelled.

I think an outright route and defeat of Hamas is the only way the conflict really resolves. The Israeli's have to just crush and force a capitulation to finally resolve this debacle. It was in the end the only way to bring this to an end. One side was going to have to defeat the other.

[Endus]

Human rights group have been obsessed with Israel for years. But houses become military targets as soon as there is someone hiding weapons, or has command center, or weapons manufacturing in the basement. "Both sides" do not really work in this conflict, what Hamas does cannot be compared to Israel's actions. You can try, if you want to. I will say the same to you as to Endus - lalala land is not reality.

You're right that they can't really be compared.

You're wrong about why. The reason they can't be compared is that Israeli attacks have been so wildly disproportionate. In the same time frame that there were over 3000 innocent Palestinian civilian deaths (2008-today), there's been a total of 130 Israeli civilian deaths. The body count attached to Israeli attacks is more than 20 times as high as that from Hamas and other terrorist groups in Palestine.

You're right. They can't reasonably be compared. But only because Israel is so much more brutal and violent than Palestine.

Edit: Hell, you want to evaluate this proportionally, to see who targets citizens more?

Israeli deaths are 130 civilian, 121 security forces; nearly even; 51.8% civilian deaths.
Palestinian deaths are 3,183 civilian, 1,506 disputed, and 913 members of armed groups.

Even if we assume (unfairly) that all disputed deaths were militants, that's a 56.8% civilian casualty rate for Israeli attacks.

Israel targets civilians more than Hamas does. Statistically. Even if we err on Israel's side as much as possible.

[krogy]

It's only "simple" if you literally do not understand what a deed is.

A deed is just a piece of paper that says "the government at the time of this issuance agreed that the property detailed herein belonged to X at that time".

If the government changes, or decides to revoke it, or just flatly does not accept the validity of the deed, it's meaningless, because the core agreement it describes is not relevant.

In context, you're asking if the Palestinians living there had deeds that would be honored by the Israeli government, to which the answer is obviously "no". But that doesn't mean they don't have deeds to the property, it just means the Israeli government doesn't respect those deeds any more.

Let me ask you something, according to history who built Jerusalem? By logic first comes owns it all so pretty much all your claims are null.
And if you go by the claims that conquered area isn't legal most of the world should screew themeveles out of thier houses.

And just to add yes the Israeli court honors palestinians deeds, you can check back there were a lot of problematic jews settelments that were evacutaed and destroyed by Israeli army and police because it was on palestinian land. Heck in my city area there is palenstinians with olive tress, we don't build there and even let them in to do what they need with it when they need.

[jonnysensible]

So, there is no title deeds or proof of ownership, its just a claim with nothing backing it. In the case we are talking about here, its people with expired leases, issued by the Jordanian army, who've refused to pay rent for decades based on the owners race. And the building was bought a fifty plus years before Israel even existed? What are you on about here?

They have deeds and proof of ownership. Quick summary :

Palestinians chilling out in their houses.
War starts Israel boots them out (ethnic cleansing) they become fugees
Israel makes law saying any abandoned land can be claimed by them.
fugees cant go home and say this is mine because its not allowed.
Land laws are passed saying the land is now owned by Israel.
80% of land in 1980 now has 2 deeds, an original Palestinian deed and an Israeli deed.

Does this sound fair? No. Its just power being used and made 'legal' by a loaded system.

[Themius]

Did you seriously sugest Israel should give Iron Dome to Palestinians? To Hamas??? I can't even.

Why not? Why not give it to the Palestinian region? Is Hamas all of Palestine? Tell me... why does Hamas even exist to begin with? Do you think bombing children helps Hamas or hurts them?

[krogy]

You're right that they can't really be compared.

You're wrong about why. The reason they can't be compared is that Israeli attacks have been so wildly disproportionate. In the same time frame that there were over 3000 innocent Palestinian civilian deaths (2008-today), there's been a total of 130 Israeli civilian deaths. The body count attached to Israeli attacks is more than 20 times as high as that from Hamas and other terrorist groups in Palestine.

You're right. They can't reasonably be compared. But only because Israel is so much more brutal and violent than Palestine.

Edit: Hell, you want to evaluate this proportionally, to see who targets citizens more?

Israeli deaths are 130 civilian, 121 security forces; nearly even; 51.8% civilian deaths.
Palestinian deaths are 3,183 civilian, 1,506 disputed, and 913 members of armed groups.

Even if we assume (unfairly) that all disputed deaths were militants, that's a 56.8% civilian casualty rate for Israeli attacks.

Israel targets civilians more than Hamas does. Statistically. Even if we err on Israel's side as much as possible.

Do you know Gaza population density? Let me help you with that: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...the-gaza-strip , one of the densets places on earth. If IDF wasn't careful about killing civilians this number was tens of times higher. Hamas has thousands of activists and that amounts to most of the deaths. There are always a few innocent death when they are used as meat shields.
Also a lot of the dead children are actaully from Hamas misfires (about 30% of launches).

[Endus]

Let me ask you something, according to history who built Jerusalem? By logic first comes owns it all so pretty much all your claims are null.

Given that the answer's gonna be "the Canaanites", who weren't Jewish, don't see how that's really relevant to anything.

[Themius]

So, there is no title deeds or proof of ownership, its just a claim with nothing backing it. In the case we are talking about here, its people with expired leases, issued by the Jordanian army, who've refused to pay rent for decades based on the owners race. And the building was bought a fifty plus years before Israel even existed? What are you on about here?

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I think an outright route and defeat of Hamas is the only way the conflict really resolves. The Israeli's have to just crush and force a capitulation to finally resolve this debacle. It was in the end the only way to bring this to an end. One side was going to have to defeat the other.

How does defeating hamas solve the issue? Why does Hamas exist in the first place is the question. How does "crushing" them help? You'd be crushing the only major opposition against Israel from the Palestinians, no matter how flawed they may be...


When you start killing peoples' children a population tends to move away from "peaceful" means to stop their own oppresssion.