Why is it alright to diminish the experience of non competitive players?

[Crimson Spears]

I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

[Soon-TM]

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

Because "it has always been this way", which isn't only fallacious, but also factually false.

[starstationprofm]

You cannot make a competitive game for the lowest denominator. It will just be 20 iq easy.

[Pigy2]

Because to some extent you don't get a proper picture of how something measures up against something else if they're not both utilized to their fullest capacity.
High-tier gameplay is valuable in most gaming genre's because that's where things are pushed to their limits and you get a clear view how elements of your game operate under such circumstances.

It should be weighted the most heavily, though not singularily so. If something is too hard for the average player to execute correctly, it may need to be brought down (though I personally am all for things like original Surrender to Madness, Combustion, Sub rogue in DS etc. that properly rewarded being a tryhard sweatlord and kicked you in the shin for being bad.)

Take a game like CS:GO for instance, low skilled players (me among them) find the AWP to be the biggest bullshit weapon in the game, but when you know the smokes and strats to play around it, it's suddenly a liability to have more than one on your team, if you nerfed it for the low skilled players it would be non-existent amongst high skilled ones.

[Crimson Spears]

You cannot make a competitive game for the lowest denominator. It will just be 20 iq easy.

No but certainly you can give them things to work for no?

For people who struggle through normal dungeons completing heroics would be a meaningful personal achievement to them no?

Why then does their seem to be this expectation to over gear them to the point it is painfully clear they didn't overcome anything but simply out geared it?

[LedZeppelin]

Its not that I dont think it has no value i just think heroic -> m0 doesnt require much help. What most people on here seem to be after is heroic->full 226

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

No but certainly you can give them things to work for no?

This problem doesn't exist. Its a fallacy thought up by players who wish they were more successful than they are, perhaps to help them cope with that gap?

A "non-competitive player" is not seeking difficulty at all. They are not seeking competition or progression, by definition.
They simply play for fun and that's where it ends.

Instead, what you are describing is an (extremely?) unsuccessful competitive player.
If you are pursuing progression and climbing the difficulty curve at any level, you are competitive.
Just like an amateur sports practitioner is competing in their local whatever.
Competition is not only professionals.

So to answer your question:

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass

Because it is for non-competitive players.
Its goals are to get you hooked by the game and potentially turn you into a competitive player and encourage you to pursue progression.

[Crimson Spears]

This problem doesn't exist. Its a fallacy thought up by players who wish they were more successful than they are, perhaps to help them cope with that gap?

A "non-competitive player" is not seeking difficulty at all. They are not seeking competition or progression, by definition.
They simply play for fun and that's where it ends.

Instead, what you are describing is an (extremely?) unsuccessful competitive player.
If you are pursuing progression and climbing the difficulty curve at any level, you are competitive.
Just like an amateur sports practitioner is competing in their local whatever.
Competition is not only professionals.

So to answer your question:

Because it is for non-competitive players.
Its goals are to get you hooked by the game and potentially turn you into a competitive player and encourage you to pursue progression.

I can't really say I agree with you. I have played games non competitively that I wanted to simply complete even if it was on easy mode. Bioshock as an example. I would of felt cheated if I knew the game simply let me win regardless rather then working within the game.

[Hellobolis]

Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is seen as having zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content.

could you name some examples cause i really don't see it.

stuff like farming anima/covenant things is the same for all players.
grinding reputations and the like is just as boring for all players.
the patchcycle resets progress for all players.

you can raid as a non-competitive player just fine, i don't care much who wins the meters as long as we meet dps checks. (if you are in a guild with competitive raid spots, there are always classes/roles for which that's much less true)
i do BGs when i have to do them non-competitlely, i'll happily sit at some flag if it means we win and i can quit doing them that much faster.
now i will say competitive m+ players are annoying when you invite them to an obviously non-competitive m+, but you get those people everywhere now and then.

[aceperson]

I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is seen as having zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

why is it alright to diminish the experience of competitive players for what you want? that question goes both ways. the thing that drew casual and hardcore alike back in the day was the sense of scale and progress. a person would spend months leveling, then just as long gearing and improving professions, then just as long raiding with friends.

the question isn't why competitive and non-competitive players are or aren't catered too. the question is why is wow no longer designed with a sense of progress. think about it. when shadowlands launched, we had dungeons and world quests. then we got world bosses and one raid. when 9.1 comes out, all that effort is going to be made pointless, but the reason it's infuriating is because blizz provides an extremely quick way to skip ALL of the prior gearing in the game. while heroic nathria might be for middle-ish tier players, that content would've naturally become a piece of content for the casual base as they got gear from early bosses of the 2nd tier.

there is no constant sense of progression, every patch is a reset. when every patch is a reset, the general players who aren't as knowledgeable about the game start wanting things to fill their now emptier plates. what was once content for everyone as time moved on became content only for then. when people like me point this out, we are usually met with the argument of "we just want to deny people without time something for no reason". which my response is yes. that's the entire point and you don't understand why that's better.

people didn't come to idolize ragnaros and neferian by killing them weekly in a face role mode designed to not be failed. those bosses became idols by the players who weren't yet good or geared enough to do them and saw them as challenges and goals. that is the current failing of wow.

why does killing denathrius matter when everyone can in lfr?

why does 1800 or higher arena rating matter when people can just buy boosts?

why does pet battle dungeons matter when the most powerful pets constantly come from the store?

it just doesn't. surely i'm not the only one to notice an extreme lack of memorable bosses from prior tiers. the morchoks, the ultraxions, the mimirons, the marrowgars, etc. the bosses aren't as memorable because people do them for a time, and then because of a new patch, they just stop caring because they don't have to anymore.

there is a reason things like "BREAK YOURSELVES UPON MY BODY!" is remembered. it's because it was a funny quote that came from a memorable boss. memorable for killing people, memorable for his looks, memorable for his mechanics. the closest we honestly have to that is the council of blood with "boogie down" but i don't think a single person honestly remembers the name of a single one of those bosses.

tldr: both sides matter. it's just the casual players usually don't see the forest through the trees.

[jellmoo]

I think the biggest obstacle is that we divide the playerbase into 'casual' and 'competitive', when the reality is a lot more nuanced than that. The goal should be that there is content and meaningful rewards for everyone, regardless of the type of content they enjoy doing. The rewards need not be equal, but everyone should hae something they enjoy doing, and a progression of rewards for doing that.

This should run the gamut of raid content, dungeon content, timed dungeon content, pvp, professions, single player content, world questing, etc...

Everyone should have a valid path to follow that lets them play the game they like playing and get iterative rewards. One of the problems with the game right now is that the system doesn't really allow for it. Everything is designed around progression end game content, with a sprinkling of PVP. It creates disparity and causes us to define people as 'casual' when the reality is that they just don't like the content being offered. They might love questing, or Torghast, or a Mage Tower like experience, or maximizing professions and crafting. They want the content they find fun, but unless they can make meaningful progress, and that doesn't have to match the progress levels of other game types, it feels hollow.

[Nnyco]

Non-existent problem with non-existent examples by the guy who spams shitposts all day. Good thread, good thread.

[Soon-TM]

why is it alright to diminish the experience of competitive players for what you want?

It isn't, and as a matter of fact, the experience of competitive players is NEVER tarnished by whatever the casual crowd is doing. So the question doesn't really go both ways, nice attempt though.

[Ealyssa]

celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression

That's only in your head. Literally never happens. Stop the victim complex, try engaging with the content and the players. You'll see there is nothing to be afraid of...

[Kyriani]

I've always been of the mind that "competitive" content should be the "instant gratification" route, or at least the fastest way to progress your character. On the flip side I feel that "non-competitive" content, content that doesn't require you to be the best of the best, or even particularly good, should be the "slow and steady" route, where time invested will eventually get you the same ( or close to it) progress for your character as those who take the "competitive" route. Two ways to reach the same destination.

FFXIV does this through its tomestone currency which allows players to get gear comparable (or at least very close) to the end game raid gear. You won't get it nearly as fast, but it's a deterministic reward that's fairly close to that which the cutting edge players can get as far as player power goes. It also seems WoW is coming close to embracing that with how world content (with enough time invested) will be able to reach ilvl 237 vs the 239 that heroic raiders can get. Obviously mythic raiders will still have a notable advantage but it's certainly progress compared to how things tended to be before.

The nice thing about "slow and steady" deterministic rewards is that even the competitive players can take advantage of them if they want to invest the time. That, of course, leads to some players feeling like they "have to" invest that time, but the truth is they really don't. If they only want to raid log, they can do that. They could also supplement their raid gear acquisition with Mythic+ for another avenue of "competitive" advancement. The "slow and steady" route being comparable (or at least in view) to the higher end of gear progression is a good thing IMO.

All that's left is for crafting to be brought up to snuff. In FFXIV, crafting can get you a set of gear that's easily worthwhile to use as entry level endgame gear. At it's best (as in the final content patch of the current expansion), the crafted gear can reach ilvl 520 which is the same ilvl as the base tomestone gear. The tomestone gear can be upgraded to 530 with additional time investment so it has greater potential but the crafted gear is still very good. For comparison, the raid gear drops at ilvl 530 for armor and 535 for weapons.

FFXIV also has "relic" weapons which are most of the expansion long time investments resulting in a weapon that grows in power throughout the life of the expansion so long as time is invested into it (as each relic weapon content stage is added). Relic weapons are nearly always a step behind raid weapons through out an expansion, but typically on par, or just below, raid weapons by the very end of an expansion's life, giving non-raiders an avenue for comparable weaponry via questing/grind elements, if they prefer that to raiding or getting tomestone weapons.

[aceperson]

It isn't, and as a matter of fact, the experience of competitive players is NEVER tarnished by whatever the casual crowd is doing. So the question doesn't really go both ways, nice attempt though.

why do you even enter conversations if you don't bother to read? you clearly read one line, came up with a "rebuttal" that is both asinine and hyperbolic, and just declared yourself right. I know you didn't read past the first sentence because if you did, you would've realized that I said the exact same thing you started with. so good job making yourself out to be a fool.

[Doffen]

Hmm, what was your nickname before this account OP?

I am just curious, thats all. And very off topic, I know.

And I dont think people diminish non competetive players in game. Its more a forum thing with anecdotal experiences.

[starstationprofm]

No but certainly you can give them things to work for no?

For people who struggle through normal dungeons completing heroics would be a meaningful personal achievement to them no?

Why then does their seem to be this expectation to over gear them to the point it is painfully clear they didn't overcome anything but simply out geared it?

That's what Mythic+ is. A really accessible way to get gear on the level of a mythic raider/gladiator.

If you can't do a Mythic+ you don't need ilvl 220 gear. Normal raid is enough.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

OP are you actually Wilfire?

[starstationprofm]

Sounds like an improvement then.

Har har.

No but it's true though. Like... Riot doesn't balance League after the plebs in Iron.