Night warrior story ending and why people dont like it.

[geco]

Admittedly that's a downside in this, though conflict driven by emotion-controlling celestial power would lose some of its legitimacy. My opinion is that the night elves were hurt by the Night Warrior storyline, because it gave them an asspull deus ex machina rather than have them overcome the Horde with their own power. Horde had overwhelming numbers through focus, preparation and subterfuge in War of Thorns, but after that their forces were divided to multiple fronts same as the Alliance's. What they had left in Darkshore should've been something the night elves alone could deal with without resorting to god powers, and Tyrande should've gone through an arc of introspection and reason without pushing all responsibility on the Night Warrior. In that scenario there wouldn't even have been a scape goat for her wrath and the Alliance could actually have had a legitimate alternative ideology driven by her and maybe Genn. Horde has had that many times, but for some reason Blizzard doesn't really entertain it for the Alliance more than what amounts to lip service.

You're right. But in a direct sense.

But why the night warrior always lost.
Maiev and Shandris kill all the Horde in the middle to save Tyrande. Fucking Anduin without further ado and showing that he has autonomy.
Tyrande forgives the Horde and essentially loses against Natanos and Malfurion has to come to save him.
Maiev leads the dark shore attack and reclaims the lands.

And in SW from what I saw it is similar. Tyrande the Night Warrior fails over and over again and the other Kaldorei have to fix his mistakes.

but one thing is true, the night elves have been featuring consistently since legion. But it seems grudgingly, after such a masterpiece in the Legion alpha beta for Suramar and the Nighthold, Azsuna and Val'Sharah, the night elf focus greatly shifted when new stuff came in for 7.1 (the amended story) where Nightborne were distance from the night elves they were quite close, and in 7.2 where they were pretty much in the background on the broken shore. Where it was all about the legion, and while the setting showed some night elf lore, we saw no priesthood, no action from Suramar based on previous events, playing a role, no Elune sisters.. Illidan and Maiev did play a role, but it didn't feel consistent, and then Argus did not see a night elf /draenei partnership, night elves who's arch nemesis from the earlier story was the legion are not visible in the game.

What I emphasize is that the writers who hate the Kaldorei put them in the spotlight all the time.

It occurred to them to burn Teldrazzil. If they didn't, no one would claim anything from the Kaldorei. They could start the war by destroying the Stormwind City or the Dwarven City.

The other option is that the managers realized that Los Kaldorei sell more than all the stupid current idea of the writers and ... seeing the forums I really think so.

From what this forum looks like, the only SW sound is that of trees and the rest are "loose myions" like little islands.

[Sondrelk]

I guess it is to be expected. Let us all take this time to remember that the weak Darkshore questline was the more respectful version to Tyrandes character, as she only got a few kills back then.

Unless Sylvanas escapes the end of the raid and the final patch of SL has a giant punch-up where the player character holds Sylvanas down while Tyrande kicks her repeatedly in the jaw then the story really was pointless.

I mean, what was the point of the Night Warrior at all? I guess to move Tyrande into the Shadowlands to stop Sylvanas, but most current signs point to her being completely absent from punishing Sylvanas', whether she dies in the raid or not.

[baskev]

"A bit"? They literally only need a wave and a shout to rise for another genocidal war.

was trying to make it sound a bit less then it really is. because otherwise i will get in a qoute war for 10 pages.

[mickybrighteyes]

Actually, two major arks showed horde = bad. It has nothing to do with the warchief. Sure, Sylvanas was a crazy psychopath, but the vast majority of the horde not only agreed with her but enjoyed the war and stayed with her till the end. Always remember: the horde did not abandon Sylvanas, Sylvanas abandoned the Horde.

actually a lot more than 2 arcs show horde = bad. but it was two expansions major conflict arcs centered on the warchief is bad and therefore their faction is bad unless they revolt against them. BFA was all in on having us the players turn on Sylvanas before any story about her abandoning the horde was there. Sylavnas appointed the warchief and FIRST OFF we have Saurfang saying he'd kill her and everyone saying how bad a choice Voljin made with even her own inner dialogue in stories saying it was a bad decision. But those inner monologues are clearly retconned because she's been the Jailor's pawn since before those storylines ever took place.

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Funniest part is how Horde has nothing to fear from Alliance since faction is so passive it actually cares more about keeping Horde fine and well then about its own members. So EVEN if Alliance gained some leverage over the horde they would NEVER use it to harm it!

I dunno. We have shit like Alleria barging in as a walking beacon to summon barely understood invaders who will consume us all. A faction of Light Blinded zealots who are a hairsbreadth away from waging a crusade on the non-believers. Jaina is resembling a pancake flipping around on whether she wants to torch everyone in the horde or not.... Anduin seems to have more say in horde leadership than the actual horde (hell 3 figures have jumped ahead of established faction leadership for no reason.... one being a princess Anduin invited to an event who tried initiating an uprising)...

I mean sure the writing team wants us to think the alliance isn't at all trying to be involved with horde matters but they're also writing Stormwind as a human empire with their hands in literally every factions business.

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2) Remove a valid reason for next faction war.

they didn't even bother acknowledging the valid reasons for the "4th" war we just had an expansion for.

[Ardenaso]

they didn't even bother acknowledging the valid reasons for the "4th" war we just had an expansion for.

I'd still prefer to think the 4th war actually started when Varian declared war in the Undercity

[shoc]

Night Warrior story line can be best described as a narrative that spent its whole existence aborting itself. It's brilliant.

[geco]

actually a lot more than 2 arcs show horde = bad. but it was two expansions major conflict arcs centered on the warchief is bad and therefore their faction is bad unless they revolt against them. BFA was all in on having us the players turn on Sylvanas before any story about her abandoning the horde was there. Sylavnas appointed the warchief and FIRST OFF we have Saurfang saying he'd kill her and everyone saying how bad a choice Voljin made with even her own inner dialogue in stories saying it was a bad decision. But those inner monologues are clearly retconned because she's been the Jailor's pawn since before those storylines ever took place.

Not.
The Horde did not rebel against Sylvanas. The player and a couple more at the most. But it was Sylvanas who abandoned the Horde, not the other way around.
And back the Horde does not rebel against Sylvanas for being evil. But because they see Baien be beaten for being a Traitor.

The Horde reveals that they are going to hit nothing more.

Which is why BFA defines the Horde as Bad.

When I finish closing the Teldrazzil arc and rebuilding the Kaldorei, they still have to rebuild the entire Horde and each of its leaders. Because for now everyone but Talanji and Trall are openly in agreement with murdering children in horrible ways. And that is far from the spirit of the Horde.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

As a recap for those who haven't read the PTR spoilers: After accomplishing zilch, doing nothing against any Horde NPC outside of the bounds of the war vs Sylvanas or doing more than calling Anduin names (and not very rude names either) Tyrande jobs one last time to Sylvanas. Then she accepts love and peace, ridding herself of the terrible cosmic power that allowed her to have positions more moderate than ones she had in WC3 and gave her the ability to kill a guy she should've easily run over anyway:



As predictable as it is bad.

My gosh it's somehow even worse than I thought it was going to be

After WoD I learned to try to keep my expectations low for WoW's story but time and time again my expectations prove to be not low enough

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The Night Warrior being a joke was pretty clear when Tyrande couldn't even kill Nathanos in BfA. BuT sHe KiLlEd a VaLkYr!

Yeah, the blue balls are unreal. Tyrande is one of the most powerful characters in Azeroth. Her people got wiped out. She said there was going to be a reckoning... I expected her to actually follow through on what Jaina pussied out on doing and stomp Orgrimmar... but nope the reckoning turned out to be killing 20 orc grunts in Darkshore. Wah wah wah...

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Wow, that's a disappointment.

Post-Metzen WoW storyline in a nutshell.

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Do you remember the very first time you logged into WoW? How cool everything was. You got to see the beautiful and lush world of the fearsome Night Elves. These near feral warriors who trust no one. You got to live in that world an... Wait... did... Did she just bounce like a drunk college girl? Oh god, they're all doing it?

That's pretty much what this feels like again. Just incredibly disappointing.

Yup. Warcraft 3 Night Elves put... whatever these pansies are to shame. These so-called "night elves" prancing around in Darkshore are not real night elves.

[mickybrighteyes]

Not.
The Horde did not rebel against Sylvanas. The player and a couple more at the most. But it was Sylvanas who abandoned the Horde, not the other way around.
And back the Horde does not rebel against Sylvanas for being evil. But because they see Baien be beaten for being a Traitor.

I feel like every NPC blatantly declaring themselves either fence sitting or against Sylvanas at every stage of the campaign begs to differ.

the most staunch support FOR sylvanas is the Loyalist player story (a very half assed last minute add in), Nathanos... maybe Gallywix... and well no one else. Literally every character is more fence sitting because conflict is a bad idea but both sides suck or jumping to turn on leadership.

The most neutral sitting characters are like Garona with obvious threats saying it's time to kill another leader.

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I'd still prefer to think the 4th war actually started when Varian declared war in the Undercity

That's the thing... that "war" is acknowledged but somehow not the 4th war despite it being the one that spans multiple expansions and drew in all the major powers some how.

Then we have Sylvanas launching a totally "unprovoked" war that then turns into the 4th war (because the events of legion and Before the Storm are totally not showing any proper casus belli for a war)

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Because for now everyone but Talanji and Trall are openly in agreement with murdering children in horrible ways. And that is far from the spirit of the Horde.

This logic is like trying to argue that Tyrande and Velen are totally on board with torture, mass murder and callous genocide because they're associated with the Human nations...

Something that really is rather puzzling since Tyrande in the recent storylines is acting like wholesale slaughter of civilians is totally new and unique (nevermind it having been a universal threat for all the horde factions and a reason they unified in the first place)

[geco]

I feel like every NPC blatantly declaring themselves either fence sitting or against Sylvanas at every stage of the campaign begs to differ.

the most staunch support FOR sylvanas is the Loyalist player story (a very half assed last minute add in), Nathanos... maybe Gallywix... and well no one else. Literally every character is more fence sitting because conflict is a bad idea but both sides suck or jumping to turn on leadership.

The most neutral sitting characters are like Garona with obvious threats saying it's time to kill another leader.

No. Because Leaders' motives used to be "fear that Sylvanas will do something to him." Neither really had a reason for the Honor.
I mean back everyone was perfectly fine with following someone evil as long as they make a profit. Unlike the rampage against Garrosh when they did not agree to profit by unintentional means.

This logic is like trying to argue that Tyrande and Velen are totally on board with torture, mass murder and callous genocide because they're associated with the Human nations...

Something that really is rather puzzling since Tyrande in the recent storylines is acting like wholesale slaughter of civilians is totally new and unique (nevermind it having been a universal threat for all the horde factions and a reason they unified in the first place)

It is that then you did not understand the relationship of the Horde and the Alliance. The whole "unites against a common enemy" joke is based on the fact that the Horde and the Alliance never had a major conflict. They were enemies but under a kind of code of Honor.

Now with BFA It makes more sense for the Kaldorei to team up with the enemy on duty to destroy the Horde.

No enemy in WoW has ever done damage to Teldrazzil's scale.


PS: For the goodness. I accept you if you tell me that Baien is weak to reveal himself and it would be the death of his race. But the other leaders could leave the Horde at any time.

[mickybrighteyes]

No. Because Leaders' motives used to be "fear that Sylvanas will do something to him." Neither really had a reason for the Honor.
I mean back everyone was perfectly fine with following someone evil as long as they make a profit. Unlike the rampage against Garrosh when they did not agree to profit by unintentional means.

Literally only one faction leader that stuck with the current horde faction post BFA storyline was on board with the warchief and THAT was purely because "orc are loyal and should never betray the warchief".

every single other notable character that had dialogue of ANY sort was something along the lines of "this sucks but we can't act...yet..." Or a point at how someone remembered the alliance isn't all roses and good vibes anyways... and made sure we EVEN had nameless NPC saying how bad teldrassil was anyways. The game couldn't be more blunt that EVERYTHING the horde did was more wrong unless the game crashed and said "Error: you logged in horde".... even the one option to NOT turn and join anduin wrynn at the front gates ready to seige Orgrimmar was a halfassed "oh shit some people actually WANT to stick with the warchief?!" last minute addition.

No enemy in WoW has ever done damage to Teldrazzil's scale.

You really need to rethink this statement because it seems you're ingoring a large swath of lore.

edit:

Let me help here... no player faction has ever been held accountable for something on a scale of Teldrassil's burning.

Cause factions have been reduced greatly to 10% of previous amounts because of enemies we have seen in warcraft throughout the many conflicts. Worlds have burned and featured as expansions and raid tiers to highlight the fact. Faction originations were spawned from similar feats.... Teldrassil is ONLY unique in that it was used for the most recent faction war.

[geco]

Literally only one faction leader that stuck with the current horde faction post BFA storyline was on board with the warchief and THAT was purely because "orc are loyal and should never betray the warchief".

every single other notable character that had dialogue of ANY sort was something along the lines of "this sucks but we can't act...yet..." Or a point at how someone remembered the alliance isn't all roses and good vibes anyways... and made sure we EVEN had nameless NPC saying how bad teldrassil was anyways. The game couldn't be more blunt that EVERYTHING the horde did was more wrong unless the game crashed and said "Error: you logged in horde".... even the one option to NOT turn and join anduin wrynn at the front gates ready to seige Orgrimmar was a halfassed "oh shit some people actually WANT to stick with the warchief?!" last minute addition.



You really need to rethink this statement because it seems you're ingoring a large swath of lore.

edit:

Let me help here... no player faction has ever been held accountable for something on a scale of Teldrassil's burning.

Cause factions have been reduced greatly to 10% of previous amounts because of enemies we have seen in warcraft throughout the many conflicts. Worlds have burned and featured as expansions and raid tiers to highlight the fact. Faction originations were spawned from similar feats.... Teldrassil is ONLY unique in that it was used for the most recent faction war.

All that the leaders say they say when they bring Baien to trial. Until then they don't say anything and that's what ruins them as "good leaders." They all agreed with Teldrazzill. Which is the event that annoyed Horde and Alliance players.
Blizzard has to correct the honor of all those Pjs.

No. What a WoW enemy managed to destroy a city of the Horde Alliance. To make a genocide against their races.
WoW highlighting. Not before WoW.

[mickybrighteyes]

All that the leaders say they say when they bring Baien to trial. Until then they don't say anything and that's what ruins them as "good leaders." They all agreed with Teldrazzill. Which is the event that annoyed Horde and Alliance players.
Blizzard has to correct the honor of all those Pjs.

Then you missed a lot of the plot. Lorthemar and Thalyssra actively doing nothing as they waste time away from the warfighting. All the npc's in teh campaign with their two-cents on events. An array of "this sucks... but well Alliance isn't going to play nice so guess we're fucked anyways" (because Jaina and Genn have't been in the sparing survivors mood the past couple expansions and have been more in charge of military actions)

No. What a WoW enemy managed to destroy a city of the Horde Alliance. To make a genocide against their races.
WoW highlighting. Not before WoW.

see, there we go. First goalposts moved.

edit: wait. I forgot another spot.

see. here's the thing. Bilgewater Carteland Worgen both had a right it of their own destruction WITHIN the wow timeline.

Now opening up to the entire timeline.... Darkspear, Tauren, Gnomes, Elves (like seven times at least), Pandaren, Humans, Orcs, and Draenei all had their shit kicked in on a scale to rival Teldrassil relative to their respective existences. teldrassil is fresh in everyone's minds largely because more Alliance players don't give two shits about the horde history and thus aren't paying much attention to events that nearly wiped them off the map... nvm that most players don't bother really paying attention to lore older than the most recent expansions.

But yeah go ahead and sit there acting like NO ENEMY HAS EVER done a massacre on a scale of Teldrassil... *burning remains of Argus*: amiajoke.jpg

[Queen of Hamsters]

Reading how the story turns out literally had me hear the sound of Justin Hammer's Ex-Wife missile fizzling out in the little stream...

[VladlTutushkin]

Then you missed a lot of the plot. Lorthemar and Thalyssra actively doing nothing as they waste time away from the warfighting. All the npc's in teh campaign with their two-cents on events. An array of "this sucks... but well Alliance isn't going to play nice so guess we're fucked anyways" (because Jaina and Genn have't been in the sparing survivors mood the past couple expansions and have been more in charge of military actions)





see, there we go. First goalpost moved.

Its not “moving a goalpost” its people usually discussing WoW when they talk about context of Teldrassil, not events of the prequel books or Warcrafts.

[geco]

Then you missed a lot of the plot. Lorthemar and Thalyssra actively doing nothing as they waste time away from the warfighting. All the npc's in teh campaign with their two-cents on events. An array of "this sucks... but well Alliance isn't going to play nice so guess we're fucked anyways" (because Jaina and Genn have't been in the sparing survivors mood the past couple expansions and have been more in charge of military actions)

Correct me but that happens after Baien and when they had Ashara on top.
And again she didn't care. Teldrazzil got mad at Sylvanas because ... is she dead? for punishing Baien.

see, there we go. First goalpost moved.

We are in WoW.
But go ahead. Say another force that has done more damage to the Kaldorei than the Horde.
We have the Legion .. and then none. The Kaldorei viewed all the "great enemies of WoW" as minor enemies when purchased from the Horde at this time.

[mickybrighteyes]

Its not “moving a goalpost” its people usually discussing WoW when they talk about context of Teldrassil, not events of the prequel books or Warcrafts.

it's moving goalposts when they said "never has [insert] happened"... and it turns into "never [within newly stated time frame] has [insert specific event] happened to [newly specific group types]"

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We are in WoW.
But go ahead. Say another force that has done more damage to the Kaldorei than the Horde.
We have the Legion .. and then none. The Kaldorei viewed all the "great enemies of WoW" as minor enemies when purchased from the Horde at this time.

and NOW it's specifically about dmg to the Kaldorei within the WoW post 3rd war timeline.

had Vlad, see how fast that went from:

"no one has done anything on the scale of Teldrassil"...

to:

"damage to the keldorei" [with respect to the WoW MMO storyline events ONLY]

[geco]

and NOW it's specifically about dmg to the Kaldorei within the WoW post 3rd war timeline.

Ok you are not interested in debating. I understand.

[mickybrighteyes]

Ok you are not interested in debating. I understand.

neither are you. You had one point and look how easily it was subverted

edit:

Note I did say teldrassil was unique due to it's recent event... that was it. And you're doubled and tripled down pointing that out.

[mickybrighteyes]

Nope, you still haven't debated the original point.

your unstated point restricting the scope of events to what you decide because you forget that the subject of lore encompasses the Warcraft IP... mind you that the second W and little "o" doesn't render teh first W obsolete.