Why is it alright to diminish the experience of non competitive players?

[AcidicSyn]

The OP also has a thread asking for an expansion of only dungeon and raid content. Evidently eliminating every other form of content isn't "diminishing the experience of non competitive players"

Oh good someone else said it. I was confused as all hell when I saw who OP was.

[Tsarez]

And retail fanboys have the gall of decrying Classic for this very reason, go figure

I've never played Classic and it also doesn't interest me as much. In general I am not a big fan of going back 20 years in time to play games with subpar technical mechanics and interactions.

My only complaint about the key system would be your inability to switch the dungeon keys. Played my own keys a few times now, ended up going from one useless dungeon to another one. The only roundabout way here is to !keys the guild and check what they have, then beg one of the right ones to come with you. I am not touching random groups even with a stick if I cannot build my own group.

[Drench]

Do you get promoted at work for being the laziest least effort person?

Hopefully not. I don't have time has never been a valid excuse for anyone. You can make time for anything. Weightloss. Hobbies. Family. Ect.

Man up or get pushed out.

That said blizz listens to both crowds and thats why we have a mmorpg with hardly any rpg elements now and everything is either stupid easy or requires a dumb amount of time investment.

I'd rather swap back to the "not everyone gets to see everything" type of game play where the more you put in the more you can do/see.
Instead of these different modes that just suck. It breeds people who just suck forever and try hards.

[Beatman]

I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

It is better to cater to players that are actually playing the game. The competitive and perma-subbed players are what keeps this game alive. I'd also argue that by now the WoW playerbase consists mostly of this kind of players. Ultra casual players that would progress through heroic dungeons and mythic+0 dungeons are almost non-existant. There is little gain from catering to them.

[meowfurion]

Some people here comparing "video game skill" with IQ for some reason, and they are NOT related.

It's not enough that you consider yourself 'elite' at a video game, you have to also try and translate that into your real life flexing? Yea, no.

I bet Dr Steven Hawking never played a video game in his life.

[neocount]

I've always been of the mind that "competitive" content should be the "instant gratification" route, or at least the fastest way to progress your character. On the flip side I feel that "non-competitive" content, content that doesn't require you to be the best of the best, or even particularly good, should be the "slow and steady" route, where time invested will eventually get you the same ( or close to it) progress for your character as those who take the "competitive" route. Two ways to reach the same destination.

FFXIV does this through its tomestone currency which allows players to get gear comparable (or at least very close) to the end game raid gear. You won't get it nearly as fast, but it's a deterministic reward that fairly close to that which the cutting edge players can get as far as player power goes. It also seems WoW is coming close to embracing that with how world content (with enough time invested) will be able to reach ilvl 237 vs the 239 that heroic raiders can get. Obviously mythic raiders will still have a notable advantage but it's certain progress compared to how things tended to be before.

The nice thing about "slow and steady" deterministic rewards is that even the competitive players can take advantage of them if they want to invest the time. That, of course, leads to some players feeling like they "have to" invest that time, but the truth is they really don't. If they only want to raid log, they can do that. They could also supplement their raid gear acquisition with Mythic+ for another avenue of "competitive" advancement. The "slow and steady" route being comparable (or at least in view) to the higher end of gear progression is a good thing IMO.

All that's left is for crafting to be brought up to snuff. In FFXIV, crafting can get you a set of gear that's easily worthwhile to use as entry level endgame gear. At it's best (as in the final content patch of the current expansion), the crafted gear can reach ilvl 520 which is the same ilvl as the base tomestone gear. The tomestone gear can be upgraded to 530 with additional time investment so it has greater potential but the crafted gear is still very good. For comparison, the raid gear drops at ilvl 530 for armor and 535 for weapons.

FFXIV also has "relic" weapons which are most of the expansion long time investments resulting in a weapon that grows in power throughout the life of the expansion so long as time is invested into it (as each relic weapon content stage is added). Relic weapons are nearly always a step behind raid weapons through out an expansion, but typically on par, or just below, raid weapons by the very end of an expansion's life, giving non-raiders an avenue for comparable weaponry via questing/grind elements, if they prefer that to raiding or getting tomestone weapons.

I agree entirely with this. The concepts here are sound and I am glad WoW is moving this direction (even if slowly).

[Drench]

I agree entirely with this. The concepts here are sound and I am glad WoW is moving this direction (even if slowly).

so aka everyone gets first place? That's terrible design.
Were sorry you don't want to invest effort/time. (really not hard if you actually want too.) which majority of bad players don't.
So here's your cookie just slightly slower bud so you don't feel left out.

I don't do mythic raiding and only been 2300 in mop but I would be pissed if they started giving out glad rewards and mythic raid gear to other players.

What your suggesting is very poor design.

There's a reason classic wow leveling blows shadowlands leveling outta the water. There's no fancy cutscenes, not on a giant grand quest. none of this fancy bs. Just wacking rats with my big brown stick.
The items were great and there is alot of amazing stuff. HOWEVER the raiding sucks mechanically. The rotations are boring once optimized for raiding. New wow does do this better.

The game needs to be moved back to a RPG and not a mmo mobile game addiction mechanic simulator.
You get what you put in and the carrot on a stick is to get better to see more of the game. If you can't follow heroic level mechanics of natheria which are learnable in one to two tries. You should never get to see the raid. If you feel left out practice in dungeons come back with some damn effort and then you get to see.

There is a middle ground between the two that is perfect. Not following in the footsteps of a some creepy loli furry game.

[starstationprofm]

So accessibility = play your own keys regardless if the dungeon you have drops anything for you, as well as disregard which spec is fun for you, switch to the meta? I find both things extremely weak.

By all means tell me a game that has a balanced meta and a decent class design. Every class has a viable spec. That's good enough.

So accessibility

Imma stop you right there, Blizzard can't force people to invite you.

ut as things stand right now, M+ isn't easily accessible for classes outside of meta.

Yes it is. If you make your own key. Everyone's getting declined in the LFG at some point.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, it has. PvP adjustments have been made based on random BG performance in the past, rather than on arena performance.

I'm sure the same issues were present in rated BGs.

[Delever]

Non existant problem since what you are describing is not a non competitive player but a bad competitive player. The term competitive is always relative. And what I mean by that is, you are describing a situation where X player would complete normals and then work toward completing heroics but heroics are so easy to outgear that this is not happening.
If a player actually likes the mentality of working toward completing something then it does not matter if you call the next step heroic/mythic/mythic plus or whatever. You are still working toward something.
In a hypothetical setting that I will create lets take 2 sepparate players:
-Player one has just finished completing normal mode of Dungeon X and is now slowly progressing through its heroic version which is challenging to them.
-Player two has just finished completing heroic mode of Dungeon X and is now slowly progressing its mythic version which is challenging to them.

In their respective situation both players are facing equal challenges relative to their skill level which is the only thing differing here. Is player one not just as competitive as player two?
The fact that you outgear heroics quickly in WoW does not matter because you can then slowly progress through M+ relative to your skill level and always have a challenge to casually work towards.
There is no such thing as a non competitive person who wants to face a challenge.

[ONCHEhap]

This is just the daily Crimson shitpost,move along people

He's just trying to rile people up in an attempt to get the attention and sense of accomplishment he can't get in real life

[Kalisandra]

I'm sure the same issues were present in rated BGs.

Nope. You see, it was about Retribution Paladins blowing people up in random BGs because those people weren't doing any of the things you can do when a Pally pops wings and comes at you (like stun or CC them and open some distance). It was also before Rateds existed, and before Pallies had any sort of a sprint so it really was about low-skilled players getting blown up because of poor situational awareness and lack of counter-play.

[starstationprofm]

Nope. You see, it was about Retribution Paladins blowing people up in random BGs because those people weren't doing any of the things you can do when a Pally pops wings and comes at you (like stun or CC them and open some distance). It was also before Rateds existed, and before Pallies had any sort of a sprint so it really was about low-skilled players getting blown up because of poor situational awareness and lack of counter-play.

Then back when the Honor System gave rewards? In that case, calling it 'casual' is not an apt naming, because it was a way to get top tier gear.

[Tsarez]

By all means tell me a game that has a balanced meta and a decent class design. Every class has a viable spec. That's good enough.

WoW is quite in a good place. You can do everything the game throws at you with any class and any spec. It's the people who refuse to accept anything outside of what performs the best. I also don't see how your response has anything to do with what I wrote to be honest.

Yes it is. If you make your own key. Everyone's getting declined in the LFG at some point.

Don't just disregard my core point like that. It's not accessible if it's just your key. Your key often is garbage for yourself. For example, I only need the helm from Necrotic. Why would I ever want to run my own key if that isn't Necrotic? It's a complete waste of time outside of the fact that you contribute to your weekly vault, in which you can't target items. So again, it's not all that accessible. Unless of course you count going into any freaking time wasting random M+ that crosses your path.

I don't even see a reason for why the system needs to be that restricted. What's the benefit for the player here?

[Kyriani]

so aka everyone gets first place? That's terrible design.
Were sorry you don't want to invest effort/time. (really not hard if you actually want too.) which majority of bad players don't.
So here's your cookie just slightly slower bud so you don't feel left out.

I don't do mythic raiding and only been 2300 in mop but I would be pissed if they started giving out glad rewards and mythic raid gear to other players.

What your suggesting is very poor design.

There's a reason classic wow leveling blows shadowlands leveling outta the water. There's no fancy cutscenes, not on a giant grand quest. none of this fancy bs. Just wacking rats with my big brown stick.
The items were great and there is alot of amazing stuff. HOWEVER the raiding sucks mechanically. The rotations are boring once optimized for raiding. New wow does do this better.

The game needs to be moved back to a RPG and not a mmo mobile game addiction mechanic simulator.
You get what you put in and the carrot on a stick is to get better to see more of the game. If you can't follow heroic level mechanics of natheria which are learnable in one to two tries. You should never get to see the raid. If you feel left out practice in dungeons come back with some damn effort and then you get to see.

There is a middle ground between the two that is perfect. Not following in the footsteps of a some creepy loli furry game.

But everyone doesn't "get first place" in this scenario. Even in the FFXIV design, competitive players (raiders) get the best gear and get it faster. It's just that the gap between the competitive route and the non-competitive route is very small as far as player power goes. The "trophies" for "first place" in FFXIV tend to be visual rather than power related. The very best of the best players in FFXIV get unique (and visually striking/glowing) weapon skins from the ultimate difficulty encounters not unlike the old challenge mode sets.

Having every player able to reach similar player power levels, regardless of content, isn't "terrible design" in my opinion. In fact I think it's the better choice to go with if you want to retain the most players. Advancing one's character is a primary motivator to play the game, but that motivation gets cut off quickly if you don't enjoy the content avenues that provide said advancement. Having multiple routes to similar (not necessarily identical) destinations, even if some are slower than others, offers that motivation to far more people by providing multiple ways to similar ends.

The problem with your "you get what you put in" mentality is that the options of "what" you can put in have been reduced to raid, mythic+, or pvp, and the "what" you get is miles ahead of the alternatives. Gone are the days when you could farm up rare materials to craft exceptional gear to use or sell (instead you either cant craft anything worth using at all, or you need copious amounts of bop mats and/or quest macguffins that requiring raiding before you can make anything), invest time into a long grind that resulted in worthwhile gear, or run dungeons for a currency that allowed you to purchase good gear from a vendor ala the end of TBC and throughout Wrath of the Lich King.

Nowadays the world content is more of a side note that is hardly worth the time or effort because what it rewards ends up not being much of a reward at all as far as player power is concerned both because by the time you get it, you probably have equal or better, and because there is no advancement past that point unless you are willing and able to do the "big three" (raiding/M+/pvp). Not everyone is willing or able to do that content, but those players still want to advance their characters and Blizzard still wants their money.

So to keep that influx of cash they need provide motivation for those players as well. Blizzard seems to be recognizing this with allowing world content players to reach 237 ilvl gear vs the 239 that heroic raiders can get. Yes Mythic Raiders will still have a significant edge, but the number of Mythic Raiders is relatively small so the aforementioned world content gear is still a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned and it does close the power gap somewhat.

It is a proven and successful design philosophy in FFXIV. Players who don't raid can get player power levels near to those that do... they just have to invest far more time to get it. The people with "skill" get slightly better gear at a significantly faster pace, and the plebs can get gear that's almost as good as theirs, but with a longer time investment. There's also visual differences between the gear, with the Ultimate encounters (I would liken these to Mythic raid bosses) rewarding unique and striking visual indicators of a player's prowess.

Regardless of the content one enjoys, most players typically want their character to grow stronger. When that threshold of growth is stunted because the content you enjoy and are capable of engaging in has a hard cap. Players lose one of the primary motivators to play and the company loses subs.

[BrintoSFJ]

You cannot make a competitive game for the lowest denominator. It will just be 20 iq easy.

Maybe if they tried, WoW would have a more skilled player base?

[roboscorcher]

The devs live in the USA, land of "trickle-down" economics and other practices that screw over the little guy. Few things are more American than making rules that favor the ruling class.

[DechCJC]

I honestly can’t think of a single scenario in the game where this complaint is relevant, in fact more often than not I feel that it’s the total opposite.

It sounds like the kind of complaint that caused the game to drift away from its original design philosophy in early WoW.

[Thelyron]

This problem doesn't exist. Its a fallacy thought up by players who wish they were more successful than they are, perhaps to help them cope with that gap?

A "non-competitive player" is not seeking difficulty at all. They are not seeking competition or progression, by definition.
They simply play for fun and that's where it ends.

Instead, what you are describing is an (extremely?) unsuccessful competitive player.
If you are pursuing progression and climbing the difficulty curve at any level, you are competitive.
Just like an amateur sports practitioner is competing in their local whatever.
Competition is not only professionals.

So to answer your question:

Because it is for non-competitive players.
Its goals are to get you hooked by the game and potentially turn you into a competitive player and encourage you to pursue progression.

I disagree. Progression and competition are 2 completely unrelated things. You can progress through most of the game without ever competing with another player.

[potis]

I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

Because its how things are, it has nothing to do with "Its always been this way".

You are not gonna congratulate a 25 year old for finishing first grade finally, you will think "WHAT THE HELL", but you will definitely think getting a Masters is a worthwhile thing.

This is how WoW is at its current iteration if you want to add values and scaling, Leveling/Normal/HC dungeons, have literally 0 difficulty in them, its ABC and 1+1=2.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe if they tried, WoW would have a more skilled player base?

They wouldnt, what you would have is just a very low skilled playerbase since the better players just destroy things and move on, its a reason WoW is still thriving, no other game stays alive long enough to create relevant difficulty or at least engaging for a few weeks/mostly bug free content.

I am currently experiencing this in ESO (Elder Scrolls Online), the game is so irrelevantly easy, we are talking Normal Dungeon in WoW -1000% difficulty easy, but they went and added DLC dungeons that are like a Normal Dungeon, they arent difficult, they are stupidly easy, but the community is so low skilled that the majority avoids them, afks, leaves and gives up instantly because the increase in difficulty is simply "too much" for them.

And they arent new players, they cant be new players with 1500 Champion points (their paragon levels), which means they have been playing for awhile.

Thats what happens when the game is stupidly easy from minute 1, and to majority of its endgame, a community that cant even handle the most basic form of content.

[Azerate]

I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?

Because a casual player does not consider his gameplay experience "ruined" by getting some progression easier from another source and it not being a completely rigid, ladder-like experience.

For someone who isn't hardcore-competitive it makes little difference that there are some shortcuts here and there that make the game easier for them. It's really that simple.