Solution for M+ leavers....

[Soikona]

underperforming players is far more pervasive than leavers... they are more of a problem... i don't care about timing 15s... i am doing fucking 20s...

So by your own post, you are saying you are not the target audience for something like this. Blizz is not going to cater to something that has no value outside of what they target, which is 15’s. What you have again is a you problem.

[Rageonit]

In a timed(!) dungeon run, where exactly do you have the time to tell someone the BASICS of their class? Tell me, pls.
I use my time best I can, so I want the other to do the same - if they do not the value of other peoples time, they are nothing more than aholes.

We were talking here about a scenario of two players being together on disco, one of them knowing the mechanic, the other one not knowing - and them wiping 5 times, with the "good" guy never explaining anything to the "bad" guy. I have never claimed you should explain "BASICS of their class" (that's ludicrous); but some people here are claiming you have no responsibility to explain a single thing even if you can and have the opportunity - because "they should already know". Yeah, man, they should - but they don't; and if you can save the run by communication, but you don't - you're equally bad (there are simply different kinds of bad). And no, I'm not claiming every run can be saved thanks to communication; some can't be saved at all.

[Bloodyleech]

We were talking here about a scenario of two players being together on disco, one of them knowing the mechanic, the other one not knowing - and them wiping 5 times, with the "good" guy never explaining anything to the "bad" guy. I have never claimed you should explain "BASICS of their class" (that's ludicrous); but some people here are claiming you have no responsibility to explain a single thing even if you can and have the opportunity - because "they should already know". Yeah, man, they should - but they don't; and if you can save the run by communication, but you don't - you're equally bad (there are simply different kinds of bad). And no, I'm not claiming every run can be saved thanks to communication; some can't be saved at all.

Maybe you should look up who I quoted.
I talked about pugs, not about people who are in discord.

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Did you think I was saying otherwise?

Na, nothing against you, just wanted to give my 50 cents to your post.

[chiddie]

Man, the number of dps I've seen standing in sanguine this week......

"Why am I dying?!?!?! Where are my heals!!!!"

*Links damage taken/death log*

"This healer sucks"

Several times I've seen this this week. And whats really amazing, is often, its a ranged class bitching.

Edit:
And the above is with people all at or above 1200io.

Yeh that happens too. I also wonder how some people did manage to reach 14-15 (range I’m actually in).

[thunderdragon2]

Pugged all the way from mythic 0 to 1700 IO atm and still pugging 95% of my m+ runs.

It was not an easy task as fury warrior so the path has been dificult.

You cant punish leavers because staying in some groups is enough punishing already.

All you need is to educate people. Some folks are complete morons and ruin keys with stupid mistakes. And that comes more often with less experienced players, but happens a lot also in +18 and +19 runs.

And most folks here pretending they are super players are bs, a very small % of player base can run this dungeons flawlessly.

Last adventure +18 plaguefall, we wiped in the large group at the stairs before second boss. One dps goes emo and go offline. We continue, clear second and third boss with 4 folks and arrive at last boss with 7mins left. We didnt managed at the last boss... If only that f....r didnt abandon the group in with rage impulses we had plenty of time to run the dungeon.

But still... I cant vote for leaver punishment because some partys are just terrible and torturing.

So shit happens

so wasting 20-25 mins of 4 peoples time shouldn't be punish because 1 person's time is move valuable than the other 4? that's just backwards m8

[erifwodahs]

To be fair, it is sanguine week and with some places with difficult to move caster mobs means you can end up DPSing some mobs from full to dead a second time. Even an experienced tank can have it happen sometimes if you just get unlucky, but if anyone is a learning tank who doesn't have a ton of practice with sanguine, the DPS could be dealing with a lot of healing this week, which in turn is going to burden the healer. (but also yeah in midrange keys, subpar dps isn't abnormal either)

That was my point. OP said it was healer, but was it?

[Tziva]

That was my point. OP said it was healer, but was it?

Well, you suggested it could be a DPS issue. I was just adding that it could just as easily have been a tank issue too.

[Crimson Spears]

The dude you replied to (me) absolutely did not say grievous was a difficult mechanic to learn.

I don't think anyone has claimed understanding it was difficult. People have only commented that some people don't understand it, and that for some it is a hard affix.


Honestly, disagree. Maybe at the very start of the expansion, m0 was better but nowadays, low keys are a much better learning environment. Stuff dies so fast in a zero that if you are running it to learn mechanics you're not going to get any sense of them, and some you'll miss entirely.


To be fair, it is sanguine week and with some places with difficult to move caster mobs means you can end up DPSing some mobs from full to dead a second time. Even an experienced tank can have it happen sometimes if you just get unlucky, but if anyone is a learning tank who doesn't have a ton of practice with sanguine, the DPS could be dealing with a lot of healing this week, which in turn is going to burden the healer. (but also yeah in midrange keys, subpar dps isn't abnormal either)

Agree to disagree then. I've not seen a low ilv group clear mythic 0 any faster and if your stacking the group with high ilv then your not trying to learn anymore.

[Tziva]

Agree to disagree then. I've not seen a low ilv group clear mythic 0 any faster and if your stacking the group with high ilv then your not trying to learn anymore.

I mean, I don't disagree with that on paper, but I don't think its actually realistically nowadays. Genuinely: How often do you actually see full low ilvl groups for zeros though? What are you considering low ilvl?

Even if I do them on a fresh 60 alt (and I have a bunch lately) and even if I invite entirely other fresh 60 alts (I also have a bunch lately), we're still doing them like 20 ilvl ahead of where our first 60s did them just because of renown armor, better WQs rewards, and even the availability of rank 2 crafted stuff. The gear catch up is very useful for getting new and returning players and alts up to speed quickly but it also makes it extremely unlikely that you're going to find anyone sitting in a gear range where zeros are slow and challenging enough to be much of a learning experience for anything other than the most basic of mechanics.

So I don't really think it's realistic to expect to be able to build a group with an ilvl low enough to make them a good learning tool. Even if you're not trying to stack high ilvl people, what is considered a "low" ilvl nowadays is still pretty far ahead of where zeros are tuned. And lets be honest, people build their groups based on who is available the fastest, and then learn organically through experience. People don't sit around and say "because I want to learn, I am going to wait until I can build a full group of people who aren't in any way overgeared". No one is going to sit in the queue for an extra 30 minutes to wait for a 165 tank when there is a 190 one signed up now just so they can "learn better," especially when they can alternatively just do some baby keys after.

There's also the fact that zeros have a week loot lock, so no one is running them repeatedly. Even if one did manage to build a group for whom the content was challenging enough to force them to learn how to do things correctly, doing them one time is not really enough to commit everything to memory for the average person. Are we expecting them to keep running them exclusively for practice over, say, doing a +3? And to artificially keep their gear level low enough while doing so to keep it harder?

This is just one of those claims that sounds accurate on paper, and is true enough at the start of the expansion, but just really isn't when you're this far in. If you're expecting people in 5s to know all the mechanics and their nuance because they "should have learned them in zeros" I think you're setting unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. Low keys should be considered the place for learning the mechanics now.

[Crimson Spears]

I mean, I don't disagree with that on paper, but I don't think its actually realistically nowadays. Genuinely: How often do you actually see full low ilvl groups for zeros though? What are you considering low ilvl?

Even if I do them on a fresh 60 alt (and I have a bunch lately) and even if I invite entirely other fresh 60 alts (I also have a bunch lately), we're still doing them like 20 ilvl ahead of where our first 60s did them just because of renown armor, better WQs rewards, and even the availability of rank 2 crafted stuff. The gear catch up is very useful for getting new and returning players and alts up to speed quickly but it also makes it extremely unlikely that you're going to find anyone sitting in a gear range where zeros are slow and challenging enough to be much of a learning experience for anything other than the most basic of mechanics.

So I don't really think it's realistic to expect to be able to build a group with an ilvl low enough to make them a good learning tool. Even if you're not trying to stack high ilvl people, what is considered a "low" ilvl nowadays is still pretty far ahead of where zeros are tuned. And lets be honest, people build their groups based on who is available the fastest, and then learn organically through experience. People don't sit around and say "because I want to learn, I am going to wait until I can build a full group of people who aren't in any way overgeared". No one is going to sit in the queue for an extra 30 minutes to wait for a 165 tank when there is a 190 one signed up now just so they can "learn better," especially when they can alternatively just do some baby keys after.

There's also the fact that zeros have a week loot lock, so no one is running them repeatedly. Even if one did manage to build a group for whom the content was challenging enough to force them to learn how to do things correctly, doing them one time is not really enough to commit everything to memory for the average person. Are we expecting them to keep running them exclusively for practice over, say, doing a +3? And to artificially keep their gear level low enough while doing so to keep it harder?

This is just one of those claims that sounds accurate on paper, and is true enough at the start of the expansion, but just really isn't when you're this far in. If you're expecting people in 5s to know all the mechanics and their nuance because they "should have learned them in zeros" I think you're setting unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. Low keys should be considered the place for learning the mechanics now.

I guess I just base it around how I do things.

Hit level 60 get roughly 170ilv (I tend not to use anima gear due to my distaste of it/ not farming renowned before starting.) Hit the first batch of mythic 0s then start pushing keys till I hit 200 and aim for 15s.

Been doing this on my tank dh this week and planning to hit a normal then heroic raid this weekend to get him stable. All the time wasted farming renowned could of been spent getting good at the game.

[Xath]

You sure it doesn't compare runs done by BM hunter and comparing their results? If that's the case, it's more worthless than I thought before.
Welp, it shows I'm not that much of a crapper anyways imo, as quickly timed runs are not done by just 2 dps, whatever the boosters would be. First Mists was almost a 3 chest, missed by just some seconds - for this all 5 people have to do their part.

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And what's your exact point, bud?

I thought it was pretty clear. You are lying, that was my point. It's a fairly standard call out like when somebody supposedly has stood up to their teacher and the whole room gets up and claps. Basically your are spewing bs and I called you on it.

[Bloodyleech]

I thought it was pretty clear. You are lying, that was my point. It's a fairly standard call out like when somebody supposedly has stood up to their teacher and the whole room gets up and claps. Basically your are spewing bs and I called you on it.

Nope, it ain't a lie. It's your thing to just not believe it, but doesn't change the fact that is wasn't a lie at all.
Just put your 14 key in, go to toilet, come back with plenty of 195-205 people in queue.

[sam86]

But there are solutions that folks keep ignoring: Make your own group

so u think average wow player has access to 4 other ppl all time with right roles to go do a dungeon whenever they want?
in that case why make it online, make it just lan since it seems wow requires u be with real ppl
(btw i did most of wrath with 9 rl friends and we even raided together usually in same cyber, but no surprise after wrath many left with no return because is just getting worse, we only gathered back in legion 5 of us again)

[Crimson Spears]

so u think average wow player has access to 4 other ppl all time with right roles to go do a dungeon whenever they want?
in that case why make it online, make it just lan since it seems wow requires u be with real ppl
(btw i did most of wrath with 9 rl friends and we even raided together usually in same cyber, but no surprise after wrath many left with no return because is just getting worse, we only gathered back in legion 5 of us again)

I mean for one you should be in a guild that is active and plays together. If you are unable to make that basic social connection you can simply pug ive gone from leveling my own key from 0 and 170 ilv to a weekly 15 at 210 multiple times now this patch.

Just go out there and do it. Accept you will fail from time to time and pick yourself back up and move on.

[Inoculate]

People are trying to help https://wowrep.io/ gain some traction. It lets you review players. Short of that, the next best thing would be adding a karma system like the one from Garys Mod if anyone has seen that.

Start with 1000 karma, it can max out at 1500 if you do well and once it goes down to 800 or lower you do less damage. For M+ it could be similar, but have no effect when the karma goes below 1000 other than showing people that they have been downvoted a hell of a lot. If they manage to get into groups, that have to claw their way back to higher karma. It's literally 10~ lines of code max.

No offense, but if you think 10 lines of code is all that would take, just stop being an armchair gane developer because you, frankly, haven't a clue.

[Crimson Spears]

No offense, but if you think 10 lines of code is all that would take, just stop being an armchair gane developer because you, frankly, haven't a clue.

I mean given the current changes I dare say that level of competency makes him over qualified for blizzards senior game system designer.

Your avatar sums up my belief in the current system design perfectly.

[Baleful]

There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

/ff 4/5 votes required if key in time, 3/5 votes required if key not in time; no penalty for anyone. You won't have two people taking you hostage.

[thunderdragon2]

i was going to do a +20 top earlier today... tank gets blown off the platform on the way to kultharok... he runs into gorechop's wing for some reason... i ask him why he's in gorechop wing... he fucking runs down to gorechop's room... then he goes up from there... runs out and... he runs into xav's wing... we tell him to turn around because he went into wrong wing...

he fucking runs back into gorechop wing... i just hearthstoned out of there... what could have been timed turned into impossible to time because the tank was fucking running around for almost 5 minutes because he doesn't know the layout of the dungeon... i wonder how the fuck he even got 2000 score...

that i can understand but that's 5 minuets maybe slightly more, but its no where near the 20-25 min point in the run where some ppl decide this isnt worth my time anymore we cant time this and just leave 20s have completely different circumstances to them than 10-15s do, which the majority of the player base are doing currently which is why we have this issue

[Crimson Spears]

that i can understand but that's 5 minuets maybe slightly more, but its no where near the 20-25 min point in the run where some ppl decide this isnt worth my time anymore we cant time this and just leave 20s have completely different circumstances to them than 10-15s do, which the majority of the player base are doing currently which is why we have this issue

You can look at how happy the league of legends community is to see how well taking people hostage works...

People don't accept that they lost especially with how often people buy keys and try to keep running a difficulty they are in no way prepared for the next week. I rather not have a system so easily abusable when I can just admit I wasted my time and HS out.

[thunderdragon2]

You can look at how happy the league of legends community is to see how well taking people hostage works...

People don't accept that they lost especially with how often people buy keys and try to keep running a difficulty they are in no way prepared for the next week. I rather not have a system so easily abusable when I can just admit I wasted my time and HS out.

i dont know about lead i dont play iy, i dont pay attention to it, as for the m+ thing htere is 1 way out right ban any sort of paid boostingi know that wont solve everything but it'll alleviate some of the problem

and and by hostage taking do you mean the 1 person that would take the grp hostage if leavers were punished just becase they dont want a failed key on their board?