Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Drutt]

By what authority? Why wouldn't Palestine be prosecuted first?

If and when Palestine becomes a nation with a fully functioning government and a military that participates in wanton genocide of civilians or similar behavior, then yes, they absolutely should be prosecuted.

As it is, the perpetrators are terrorists, being non-state actors, and will be treated and prosecuted as such if and when they are caught.

I really don't understand your underlying point here; you're acting like the Palestinians are being let off, when the reality is that Hamas etc. are on worldwide terrorism lists and treated (and quite rightly so) as terrorists.

If a hypothetical Palestinian military was to act like the Israeli military does I'd be more than happy to condemn it, though, and I suspect the vast majority of people criticizing Israel on this would do the same.

[Endus]

Right, they declared asking Arabs to pay it or face eviction to be a literal genocide.

Declaring that people don't own the homes they've owned for 70 years and demanding rents or you'll evict them and then denying them a proper court appeal to dispute this is not just a rental dispute.

As is obvious to literally anyone who knows anything.

It's the same shit Israel's always engaged in with the Occupied Territories. Pushing out Palestinian families so Israeli settlers can take their place. It's a war crime. And yes, East Jerusalem, where the Sheikh Jarrah neighbour lies, is part of the Occupied Territories.

[uuuhname]

like, you said they lived there before Israel was even a country, so, really by what authority does Israel have to tell them they can't be there? oh right, the one that says they have the guns, bombs, and missiles to tell them another way.

[ati87]

Declaring that people don't own the homes they've owned for 70 years and demanding rents or you'll evict them and then denying them a proper court appeal to dispute this is not just a rental dispute.

As is obvious to literally anyone who knows anything.

It's the same shit Israel's always engaged in with the Occupied Territories. Pushing out Palestinian families so Israeli settlers can take their place. It's a war crime. And yes, East Jerusalem, where the Sheikh Jarrah neighbour lies, is part of the Occupied Territories.

And this is the problem with this entire discussion because one side considers the that the area itself was "empty" unti 1948 and that the "few" people that lived there where at best a couple of monk

In 1917 he wrote a leader on the day the Balfour declaration was announced, in which he dismissed any other claim to the Holy Land, saying: “The existing Arab population of Palestine is small and at a low stage of civilisation.”

[Theodarzna]

like, you said they lived there before Israel was even a country, so, really by what authority does Israel have to tell them they can't be there? oh right, the one that says they have the guns, bombs, and missiles to tell them another way.

Well, the deed holder bought the four houses before Israel existed, and under Ottoman law, Sharia, Israeli Law, and I believe even Palestinians Law you can legally own property, like that is a thing. You can buy land and let people live on it and charge them rent.

A Jewish person bought the four houses in 1875, the current title holders were unable to use their property because the Jordanian Army had a strict "Jews can't own land or property" stance and gave leases to the families to live there. When Israel won after 67' the title holder came to say "Hey, get out of my houses" and the Israeli court, you know the one supposedly very interested in Genociding the Arabs forced the Jewish property owner to accept and honor their leases given by the Jordanian Army as if he had issued them because they had protected tenant status. The one condition, the only condition, being the Arabs had to pay rent to the owner in accordance with the lease. They stopped, Decades ago and refused to pay, and for decades the Israeli Courts (You know, the ones that are supposedly thirsty for Arab blood) meekly asked them to pay up and kept refusing to let the landlord evict these people. Only now, after decades of flaunting court orders and their own signed lease deal they face eviction which triggers a race riot and declaration that these families eviction notice is 'Ethnic Cleansing'. I guess the take away is Jews cannot buy or own anything and any Jewish person with a title deed is a liar and swindler..... I have no idea what else to make of this threads hysterical and ridiculous position.

[Machismo]

Well, the deed holder bought the four houses before Israel existed, and under Ottoman law, Sharia, Israeli Law, and I believe even Palestinians Law you can legally own property, like that is a thing. You can buy land and let people live on it and charge them rent.

A Jewish person bought the four houses in 1875, the current title holders were unable to use their property because the Jordanian Army had a strict "Jews can't own land or property" stance and gave leases to the families to live there. When Israel won after 67' the title holder came to say "Hey, get out of my houses" and the Israeli court, you know the one supposedly very interested in Genociding the Arabs forced the Jewish property owner to accept and honor their leases given by the Jordanian Army as if he had issued them because they had protected tenant status. The one condition, the only condition, being the Arabs had to pay rent to the owner in accordance with the lease. They stopped, Decades ago and refused to pay, and for decades the Israeli Courts (You know, the ones that are supposedly thirsty for Arab blood) meekly asked them to pay up and kept refusing to let the landlord evict these people. Only now, after decades of flaunting court orders and their own signed lease deal they face eviction which triggers a race riot and declaration that these families eviction notice is 'Ethnic Cleansing'. I guess the take away is Jews cannot buy or own anything and any Jewish person with a title deed is a liar and swindler..... I have no idea what else to make of this threads hysterical and ridiculous position.

So, this is why you are supporting ethnic cleansing?

Interesting.

[Endus]

Well, the deed holder bought the four houses before Israel existed, and under Ottoman law, Sharia, Israeli Law, and I believe even Palestinians Law you can legally own property, like that is a thing. You can buy land and let people live on it and charge them rent.

A Jewish person bought the four houses in 1875, the current title holders were unable to use their property because the Jordanian Army had a strict "Jews can't own land or property" stance and gave leases to the families to live there. When Israel won after 67' the title holder came to say "Hey, get out of my houses" and the Israeli court, you know the one supposedly very interested in Genociding the Arabs forced the Jewish property owner to accept and honor their leases given by the Jordanian Army as if he had issued them because they had protected tenant status. The one condition, the only condition, being the Arabs had to pay rent to the owner in accordance with the lease. They stopped, Decades ago and refused to pay, and for decades the Israeli Courts (You know, the ones that are supposedly thirsty for Arab blood) meekly asked them to pay up and kept refusing to let the landlord evict these people. Only now, after decades of flaunting court orders and their own signed lease deal they face eviction which triggers a race riot and declaration that these families eviction notice is 'Ethnic Cleansing'. I guess the take away is Jews cannot buy or own anything and any Jewish person with a title deed is a liar and swindler..... I have no idea what else to make of this threads hysterical and ridiculous position.

The Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood is in the Occupied Territories, in East Jerusalem.

An occupying power moving its citizens into the territory it occupies, under any means, is a war crime.

This is the same process Israel has always used to "justify" its illegal settlements.

The Israeli court issues a bullshit ruling that is not enforceable or justifiable, and they use that as an excuse to force Palestinians out of their homes so they can unlawfully be replaced by Israeli citizens.

This is a war crime and ethnic cleansing. Repeating Israeli propaganda and abuses to defend it is not an argument.

[uuuhname]

I guess the take away is Jews cannot buy or own anything and any Jewish person with a title deed is a liar and swindler..... I have no idea what else to make of this threads hysterical and ridiculous position.

don't you EVER make that sort of accusation against me again. dozens of Palestinians are being killed over 4 buildings, how is any sane person supposed to be convinced that Israel isn't the bad guy in this situation? the only hysterical one here is you.

- - - Updated - - -

The Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood is in the Occupied Territories, in East Jerusalem.

An occupying power moving its citizens into the territory it occupies, under any means, is a war crime.

This is the same process Israel has always used to "justify" its illegal settlements.

The Israeli court issues a bullshit ruling that is not enforceable or justifiable, and they use that as an excuse to force Palestinians out of their homes so they can unlawfully be replaced by Israeli citizens.

This is a war crime and ethnic cleansing. Repeating Israeli propaganda and abuses to defend it is not an argument.

also this, take your moaning over rent and shove it.

[Mehrunes]

You'll note that it's not universal.

Ask the same question about any other country, the answer would be universal. Or nearly so, with a few single-nation outliers for places like Taiwan.

Palestine has not achieved statehood. It's seeking that recognition, and gaining ground, but it isn't there yet.

And this is from someone who supports Palestine as an independent state, FWIW.

But the international recognition of Taiwan is much, much lower than that of Palestine... It's whooping 15 nations that recognize Taiwan vs 138 (i.e. more than 70% of all sovereign nations) that recognize Palestine. That's kinda why it was kicked out of UN and why most countries have to rely on unofficial relations with it. Speaking of which, most of the nations marked with grey on the map linked by @Sugarcube have informal relations with Palestine anyway, in a similar capacity to what they do with Taiwan. So even if you counted the countries having informal relations with Taiwan as actually recognizing it, you'd have to do the same for Palestine and it'd still come out ahead, as the number of countries that have flat out no relations with Taiwan is larger than those that have no relations with Palestine.

[Endus]

But the international recognition of Taiwan is much, much lower than that of Palestine... It's whooping 15 nations that recognize Taiwan vs 138 (i.e. more than 70% of all sovereign nations) that recognize Palestine. That's kinda why it was kicked out of UN and why most countries have to rely on unofficial relations with it. Speaking of which, most of the nations marked with grey on the map linked by @Sugarcube have informal relations with Palestine anyway, in a similar capacity to what they do with Taiwan. So even if you counted the countries having informal relations with Taiwan as actually recognizing it, you'd have to do the same for Palestine and it'd still come out ahead, as the number of countries that have flat out no relations with Taiwan is larger than those that have no relations with Palestine.

Taiwan's similarly problematic in this regard, yes. Your point?

Edit: It also bears repeating I support statehood in both cases. I just don't agree it's been achieved. Ideally, Israel trying to pull this shit would get hard stopped because Israel has fuck-all legal right to declare anything about property ownership in Occupied Palestine. But, we're not there yet.

[Mehrunes]

Noticing a lot of grey on that map, sweaty.

A country doesn't have to be recognized by every nation to be "internationally recognized". A significant majority of world nations recognize Palestine and it has an observer status in UN together with the Holy See (while Taiwan does not, for example). On top of that all legal authorities on the topic confirm Palestine is occupied territory under international law and Israel can't exactly occupy itself. On a side note, I'm not sure how can you know how much @Sugarcube is sweating through the Internet.

[Shadowferal]

you are absolutely out of your mind if this is what you think is going on.

His ignorance shows in hilarious ways.

[Theodarzna]

don't you EVER make that sort of accusation against me again. dozens of Palestinians are being killed over 4 buildings, how is any sane person supposed to be convinced that Israel isn't the bad guy in this situation? the only hysterical one here is you.

I'll make that question to whomever I want, So, can any Jewish person buy any land anywhere ever? And can they reasonably expect a rent check in and if they don't get it are they allowed to evict the person? Seems like a simple question.

[uuuhname]

I'll make that question to whomever I want

not to me you will. bye.

like, I cannot stress enough what a disingenuous POS you have to be to think this is a good argument.

[postman1782]

not to me you will. bye.

like, I cannot stress enough what a disingenuous POS you have to be to think this is a good argument.

She is a Trump supporter, so her supporting the genocidal tendencies of Israel isn't surprising.

[uuuhname]

She is a Trump supporter, so her supporting the genocidal tendencies of Israel isn't surprising.

I mean... ugh I just have no patience for people who just throw anti Semitism accusations around like that.

[PC2]

Bullshit.

Why would anyone be jealous of Nazis and child murderers?

Israelis aren't Nazis and child murderers like you're claiming. It's like somebody has brainwashed you to have an irrational prejudice against Israelis.

His ignorance shows in hilarious ways.

I've studied Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank but if you think I'm ignorant of a relevant fact then just state the fact here and I'll read it.

The reality is that Israel has been improving their society with education, research and tech development, and they've been successfully growing their economy over the years. They don't need your approval and when y'all try to punish them all it does is drive Israelis away from the left. So keep it up because when you push them away from the left and socialism then you're just helping their society anyways.

[Themius]

The Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood is in the Occupied Territories, in East Jerusalem.

An occupying power moving its citizens into the territory it occupies, under any means, is a war crime.

This is the same process Israel has always used to "justify" its illegal settlements.

The Israeli court issues a bullshit ruling that is not enforceable or justifiable, and they use that as an excuse to force Palestinians out of their homes so they can unlawfully be replaced by Israeli citizens.

This is a war crime and ethnic cleansing. Repeating Israeli propaganda and abuses to defend it is not an argument.

People forget that conquered land doesn't magically give you rights to commit genocide. I believe the UN considers east Jerusalem Palestinian occupied land that Israel can't just go and take over because of some 60s conquest.

[postman1782]

I mean... ugh I just have no patience for people who just throw anti Semitism accusations around like that.

That is literally the stance of the right wingers when ANYONE criticizes Israel for what they are doing, not their people.

[uuuhname]

I've studied Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank but if you think I'm ignorant of a relevant fact then just state the fact here and I'll read it.

The reality is that Israel has been improving their society with education, research and tech development, and they've been successfully growing their economy over the years. They don't need your approval and when y'all try to punish them all it does is drive Israelis away from the left. So keep it up because when you push them away from the left and socialism then you're just helping their society anyways.

the punishment of... not just turning a blind eye to killing innocent civilians? as if the Israeli government is left wing in any sense of the word anyway....