sylvanas in World of Warcraft: Folks & Fairy Tales Book spoilers

[Aliven]

I will never understand why Vereesa continues to hang onto Sylvanas... after Sylvanas tried to kill her children and raise them as undead, not to mention having become a genocidal maniac. That's a relationship dealbreaker. No amount of "but, uh, she's my family!" can salvage that.

Her whole story arc is to be banged by handsome male chad wizard and be incubator and the nanny for that chad perfect awesome kids. Dont expect much.

[TickTickTick]

Gotta say, Bolvar jobbing pathetically to Sylvanas is my favourite meme of this expansion. Little victories I suppose.

Hopefully they do some work on this RP because its ridiculously dragged on and not in sync. And the way Sylvanas is leaving the area reminds me of a deflating baloon lmao.

[Biggles Worth]

Apparently it goes beyond foreshadowing now. Judging by posts in this thread it's been confirmed today in an interview that Sylvanas' soul was split. Now queue in Blanduin playing a part in this grand revelation and saving Sylvanas' goodness.

This whole thing reminds me of the last season of Dexter. Where each week people would try to one up each other with more and more idiotic guesses for the next episode. As in, deliberately idiotic, to mock where the story was going. And each time the show somehow proved the most idiotic ones right.




It's not that Vereesa doesn't know. It's that it's flat out wrong. Sylvanas didn't want to do squat to Vereesa's children (let alone tried to do anything to them) as she didn't think Undercity is a right place to children. She wanted to kill and raise Vereesa as a Banshee. That is what Vereesa didn't know about.

Work with me here cause I'm an idiot. Before her soul was split, was it entirely good, did we know her soul status before splitting? So if her soul was split into 2. 1 good , 1 bad. If she had bad in her soul originally that means she committed those atrocities despite having no good left in her, that would be her still being a piece of shit ya know.

[MikeBogina]

The problem with this, for Sylvanas, but for Arthas perhaps more so is that if these people are pawns who weren't mentally capable of making their own choices then their story is entirely meaningless and their actions don't make sense. If Arthas was just a sockpuppet of the Blue Man why did he keep things of sentimental value to his life and undeath? Why did he make a point of torturing Sylvanas considering her irrelevance to the goal, why did he traipse around as the King of Lordaeron after stabbing his dad and what does that say about his friend/majordomo relationship with Kel'thuzad? What does the Jailer or a spirit or what have you care about rubbing it in Kael's face that he got the girl and Kael didn't? In turn, what do any of those who were in his way or were tied to him like Jaina and Uther matter if he's just a sockpuppet - what is the weight of their confrontations with him?

First of all, i hate this whole idea that the Jailer was controlling Lich King Arthas the entire time. Bellular keeps pushing it, it's hugely contradicting to him supposedly controlling Ner'zhul aswell and should just be left that he tried and failed.

Second, I don't think anyone was in control of Arthas except a shade of Arthas. This shade created the moment he took up Frostmourne and that Ner'zhul allowed him to have this agency. This is an Arthas that has all of Arthas' memories, it's an Arthas who thinks he's chosen the "dark side", who still enjoys the feeling death magic gives him. This clearly isn't Arthas at all before he picked up the blade, but is a version of Arthas who enjoys it... just like all the other good guys who were raised in undeath. This Arthas had a lot of free will, but he was still made to be faithful to Ner'zhul, until the control was lifted which he then betrays him and takes over. If he's controlled by the Jailer, he wouldn't need 5 years to decide what to do. This Arthas despite becoming way more cold, still had personality and that death scene shows he has a moment of his trueself. So yeah, no Ner'zhul, no Jailer, just an eviler version of Arthas stripped of his humanity which without it, we'd all be dicks aswell. The most Badass character in Warcraft isn't even really a person and I'm fine with that.

Sylvanas is the same case - if the only 'true' Sylvanas is the good side in hell, then absolutely every action, good or bad, was carried out by a dupe. Not someone with a warped perspective or a victim of trauma who then takes it out on others, but a non-entity, an automaton who couldn't have done anything but what she did. Her lingering care for her family, her attitude shift post-cataclysm when it comes to the Forsaken, her spite for Arthas and even minor bits of characterization with Nathanos or her stance on the Horde are all done by someone who couldn't have done anything else. Her outcome, whatever it is, is meaningless, because she was apparently someone else, her Ranger-General self who's a barely characterized cipher who we only know through recollections of what we're now told is a fake Sylvanas.

Have you ever seen Young Justice? There's a character I dont like, also uses a bow and we find out at the end, it's not even the real one. All the stuff he went through, good or bad isn't real for the real one(Red Arrow I think) but it did happen to that character(clone). That's kinda how i feel about them.
Anyways, I'm not a big Sylvanas fan, defended her few years cause Blizzard gave us Horde players a raw deal(You're the bad guys and... you're the bad guys again!!!)
but with Sylvanas, it's iffy. She's raised into undeath by someone else who I believe isn't even the real version of themselves. A Shade creating a Shade. Ner'zhul turned Arthas personally and wanted devotion, Arthas however raised Sylvanas but wanted to torment her. We haven't seen any other undead be tormented and loyal to their master as if it's ok. Just like the Death Knights who were fiercely loyal to Arthas, they turned on him the moment he admitted he sent them to die. Just saying that was enough to make them turn on him. Almost like no matter how much you try, if you give undead personalities, you give them the ability to hate you if you do them wrong. The odd thing is that Arthas allowed them to just leave the fold(didn't enforce control on their actions) while Sylvanas who hated him, couldn't break free until Illidan's attack... and then she tricked Arthas into thinking she was loyal lol.
Anyways, I'm not a big fan of hers. I see how logically it can work, but I feel Danuser isn't using the same logic, i think he just wants to save his waifu.

Nevermind the retcons involved - we've been in the heads of both of these people and know that at the time of writing they were envisioned as actors, not puppets

But that doesn't go against what I'm saying with Arthas and less extent Sylvanas. I get the feeling that comes with liking or loving a character and then learning it's been a clone or a fake the the whole time and feeling like that character is cheapened or lessened by the reveal(I had this in MGS5 with Venom Snake not being the real Big Boss, i still like him more though). But I have since day one on these forums been pointing that out, that this isn't real Arthas. His first interaction with Tichondrius basically lays it out that this is a version of Arthas with no pity, no remorse... no soul, how could this be the same Arthas?

All emotional weight all other characters have tied up with them is equally as bunk as their actions now are, since these people had no hand in their own actions.

Sometimes life be like that. Sometimes people have feelings towards someone over misunderstandings, sometimes medieval people don't understand how shades work when they take over a body. Just because a good character has hatred towards someone, doesn't mean that it's just. The Headless Horseman for instance hates Arthas, calls him out for turning evil... then becomes evil basically against his will. Lore Characters can be wrong... not you know Renathal not knowing who the Stonewright is, wrong(that's just ridiculous writing) but they can have hate for a character that has not been their fault. This reminds me of illidan aswell, someone who has had free will this whole time, who committed horrible atrocities and many characters are right to hate him... and he's actually good this whole time. But Arthas, soul stolen and humanity ripped from him isn't allowed to be

I know a lot of people feel one way or the other, you I feel are in the camp that it lessens the character(and I get that feeling), many others are in the camp that they deserve punishment(these are salty boys). and I'm over here trying to use logic and got Danuser somehow in the same camp, but he's only doing it cause he loves a fictional undead elf :/

I still think DK Arthas is the most Badass character in Warcraft and in Shadowlands, I would love to see him pop up and cause some chaos against both us and the Jailer.

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What the fuck are you talking about?

Yes, of course they are free of the Lich King's control after we kill them. That's why we kill them.

The point is that Sylvanas broke free of the Lich King's control without dying and continued to be an evil bitch.

Hey it's almost like she's still undead.

My point is that when these character's who acted one way finally died, they expressed relief. It's not that they wanted it while undead, their undead personas agreed to follow the Lich King willingly until they died and it's revealed it wasn't really them.

Sylvanas' whole undead personality has always hated Arthas and Ner'zhul, so no change needed when she's freed, it would most likely come when she dies... but WAIT she has died you're thinking! and she's been raised by Scourge Valkyr each time, keeping the evil lady going.

What's another example? The Death Knights, they turned on Arthas when he revealed he sent them to die. But they haven't really changed their dark ways have they? No, they're even willing to slaughter trolls and kill Dragons, under Bol'var's orders. Almost like undeath is toxic to the mentality.

[Mehrunes]

Work with me here cause I'm an idiot. Before her soul was split, was it entirely good, did we know her soul status before splitting? So if her soul was split into 2. 1 good , 1 bad. If she had bad in her soul originally that means she committed those atrocities despite having no good left in her, that would be her still being a piece of shit ya know.

I'm not sure how the bad part of Sylvanas being a piece of shit or Sylvanas committing atrocities while there's no good in her is supposed to be a revelation here. It's kinda the exact thing this riveting story is going for.

Her whole story arc is to be banged by handsome male chad wizard and be incubator and the nanny for that chad perfect awesome kids. Dont expect much.

Yeah, that didn't exactly pan out.

[Shaqthefat]

I will never understand why Vereesa continues to hang onto Sylvanas... after Sylvanas tried to kill her children and raise them as undead, not to mention having become a genocidal maniac. That's a relationship dealbreaker. No amount of "but, uh, she's my family!" can salvage that.

It was Vereesa's plan too until she backed out last minute.

[Nerovar]

Hey it's almost like she's still undead.

My point is that when these character's who acted one way finally died, they expressed relief. It's not that they wanted it while undead, their undead personas agreed to follow the Lich King willingly until they died and it's revealed it wasn't really them.

Sylvanas' whole undead personality has always hated Arthas and Ner'zhul, so no change needed when she's freed, it would most likely come when she dies... but WAIT she has died you're thinking! and she's been raised by Scourge Valkyr each time, keeping the evil lady going.

What's another example? The Death Knights, they turned on Arthas when he revealed he sent them to die. But they haven't really changed their dark ways have they? No, they're even willing to slaughter trolls and kill Dragons, under Bol'var's orders. Almost like undeath is toxic to the mentality.

This doesn't even make any sense.

Undeath changes the personality of the victim afflicted by the curse but it's not because their persona gets "replaced" by some darker version of themselves. Undead being miserable and having a propensity towards doing evil shit is just a side effect of their curse. Their status as undead inhibits their emotions which is why they don't feel remorse when slaughtering people and have a general lack of drive when it comes to doing good. Does this mean they're unable to make moral choices and that we can just absolve them of their guilt? Absolutely not. Just because you feel nothing while doing something doesn't mean you didn't have a choice. We don't see every single Forsaken in existence become a sick mass murderer because they (like Sylvanas) have some degree of agency and no one forces them to do the things they do.

[MikeBogina]

This doesn't even make any sense.

Undeath changes the personality of the victim afflicted by the curse but it's not because their persona gets "replaced" by some darker version of themselves. Undead being miserable and having a propensity towards doing evil shit is just a side effect of their curse. Their status as undead inhibits their emotions which is why they don't feel remorse when slaughtering people and have a general lack of drive when it comes to doing good. Does this mean they're unable to make moral choices and that we can just absolve them of their guilt? Absolutely not. Just because you feel nothing while doing something doesn't mean you didn't have a choice. We don't see every single Forsaken in existence become a sick mass murderer because they (like Sylvanas) have some degree of agency and no one forces them to do the things they do.

We're not talking about mindless undead that woke up one day without their humanity. We're talking about personalities of those the Lich King allowed to be. Notice there's a clear difference in the personalities of those in the scourge and those not in the scourge. Majority of the Scourge who are allowed personalities, come off as horrible evil people, when almost none of them actually are. There is only one case of a Scourge member with personality who hated being apart of it and that same person was also the only case of a scourge member who was tortured. And we know of the DKs who weren't under the Lich Kings complete control that the moment they found out that he sent them to die, they said "Hey fuck you guy!" and turned on him, but right before that, they were completely devoted to him. These guys have no problem slaughtering the living and continuing doing undead stuff, even though they have their freedom... they even gave up that freedom to Bolvar who had them do evil shit still.

I can get why you want to put her in the same category as someone who was a mindless undead who woke up free from the Scourge, because it makes it easier to lay blame on her, or maybe because you don't want to take away from her undead character that you possibly like(jk no one likes Sylvanas) but she falls into the same category as Anub'arak or Sindragosa, or the death knights as far as the evidence is.

[Nerovar]

We're not talking about mindless undead that woke up one day without their humanity. We're talking about personalities of those the Lich King allowed to be. Notice there's a clear difference in the personalities of those in the scourge and those not in the scourge. Majority of the Scourge who are allowed personalities, come off as horrible evil people, when almost none of them actually are. There is only one case of a Scourge member with personality who hated being apart of it and that same person was also the only case of a scourge member who was tortured. And we know of the DKs who weren't under the Lich Kings complete control that the moment they found out that he sent them to die, they said "Hey fuck you guy!" and turned on him, but right before that, they were completely devoted to him. These guys have no problem slaughtering the living and continuing doing undead stuff, even though they have their freedom... they even gave up that freedom to Bolvar who had them do evil shit still.

I can get why you want to put her in the same category as someone who was a mindless undead who woke up free from the Scourge, because it makes it easier to lay blame on her, or maybe because you don't want to take away from her undead character that you possibly like(jk no one likes Sylvanas) but she falls into the same category as Anub'arak or Sindragosa, or the death knights as far as the evidence is.

Again, there's no difference between an Undead version of a character and the living person beyond the physical effects of the curse and the trauma they go through by dying and becoming undead. Darion Mograine wasn't replaced by some "shadowperson" after he sacrificed himself and got ressurrected by Kel'Thuzad. He was just mindcontrolled until he managed to break free at Light's Hope Chapel. Death Knight Darion still loves his father and possesses the same traits he possessed in life (like being devoted to the point of self-sacrifice which he once again displays during the Legion Order Hall campaign).

The only real difference between these characters and regular ghouls is the degree of autonomy they are granted by the necromancer. Just compare characters like Sylvanas and Nathanos to Thomas Zelling and Derek Proudmoore. You will see that the thing that makes one a horrible person while the other is just a human suffering from a curse is not rooted in "MAGICCCS" but in the things they went through/were forced to do after they were raised. It's why these characters are tragic to begin with. They were basically mind-raped and forced to do evil shit until they were so corrupted by their deeds that even after regaining free will they weren't the same person because they couldn't let go of their past.

[MikeBogina]

Again, there's no difference between an Undead version of a character and the living person beyond the physical effects of the curse

Well again, I've provided you evidence that there is for undead characters created undead the Lich King's power. I guess we'll wait and see what Blizzard goes with.

[RasAlhage]

I will never understand why Vereesa continues to hang onto Sylvanas... after Sylvanas tried to kill her children and raise them as undead, not to mention having become a genocidal maniac. That's a relationship dealbreaker. No amount of "but, uh, she's my family!" can salvage that.

Because you haven't read the book and write nonsense.
It was Sylvanas who had dissuaded Vereesa from taking the children to Undercity with her
And Sylvanas didn't want to kill her children.

"She chose her words carefully. “It would,” she agreed, as if the idea had just occurred to her. “They would have no friends their own age, and it would be difficult to explain to them why. They might be very unhappy. The Undercity . . . is really no place for children, Sister.”

Vereesa looked away. Sylvanas watched her like a hawk, cursing herself that she had not appreciated that Vereesa was not just a widow, but the sole parent to two children. This was the first time Vereesa had mentioned them since the sisters had begun their secret meetings. It was as if, with their father’s death, Vereesa could not think of anything other than revenge.

“No,” Vereesa sighed. “No, I suppose it is not.” Her hand dropped to the grass and she picked up a pinecone absently.

Something in her voice alerted Sylvanas. “Of course, if you really want them to come along, I would do my best to make them welcome. They are, after all, my closest kin—other than you.”

She shook her white head. “No, you are right. I cannot imagine it would be a good place for them. They are better off where they are.” Vereesa laughed without humor. “I have not been the best of mothers to them anyway.” Abruptly Vereesa crushed the cone in her hand. The scales cracked and fell off as she tossed it away.

Sylvanas was reassured. Vereesa understood. Sylvanas was glad—she would just as soon not have to murder her own nephews. Nonetheless, she would feel easier when her sister was safely dead. Then they could be together."

[Nerovar]

Well again, I've provided you evidence that there is for undead characters created undead the Lich King's power. I guess we'll wait and see what Blizzard goes with.

What evidence have you provided? You've given me your interpretation of why certain undead characters behave a certain way. I've given you examples that clearly don't fit your explanation and provided an alternative explanation that requires far less mental hoops to jump through because it's based on simple human psychology.

[Rexosaurus]

Again, there's no difference between an Undead version of a character and the living person beyond the physical effects of the curse and the trauma they go through by dying and becoming undead. Darion Mograine wasn't replaced by some "shadowperson" after he sacrificed himself and got ressurrected by Kel'Thuzad. He was just mindcontrolled until he managed to break free at Light's Hope Chapel. Death Knight Darion still loves his father and possesses the same traits he possessed in life (like being devoted to the point of self-sacrifice which he once again displays during the Legion Order Hall campaign).

The only real difference between these characters and regular ghouls is the degree of autonomy they are granted by the necromancer. Just compare characters like Sylvanas and Nathanos to Thomas Zelling and Derek Proudmoore. You will see that the thing that makes one a horrible person while the other is just a human suffering from a curse is not rooted in "MAGICCCS" but in the things they went through/were forced to do after they were raised. It's why these characters are tragic to begin with. They were basically mind-raped and forced to do evil shit until they were so corrupted by their deeds that even after regaining free will they weren't the same person because they couldn't let go of their past.

Yeah, basically this.

It's the whole reason that the Forsaken (or any victim of the Scourge) have any room to be interesting characters instead of just being regarded as two-dimensional villains or soul-less husks. If they continue down this path of "oh it wasn't really HER" then it means that none of the freed Scourge victims are truly in control of their actions, and it would basically erase any responsibility or sense of meaning from the entirety of the Forsaken/Ebon Knight lore. That'd just be poor writing, imo.

[JustinJgh]

Given the history of this author and some of the actions we have already seen with this book my guess it something like this will be what happens.

Sylvania was split into two souls.

The first one which was responsible for all her bad actions and was in league with the jailer. This one is ciswhitemalevanas.

The second one will be the redeemed one as is responsible for all the good left in her soul. This one is genderqueerrotatinggenderbasedonthepoliticenviornmentvanas.

[Nero Duskwind]

Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit.

Its never said it whose spirit gets scarred.

It was said that Arthas's own soul was the first claimed by Frostmourne. Given the established existence of Mathias Lehner in both novel and in-game, chances are highly likely that even Arthas's soul was fractured and, in his madness, he thought this fragment a separate entity he was purging himself of.

[Alanar]

I'm not sure how the bad part of Sylvanas being a piece of shit or Sylvanas committing atrocities while there's no good in her is supposed to be a revelation here. It's kinda the exact thing this riveting story is going for.






Yeah, that didn't exactly pan out.

Burn it with fire fast or else they will be able to reproduce!

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Hopefully they do some work on this RP because its ridiculously dragged on and not in sync. And the way Sylvanas is leaving the area reminds me of a deflating baloon lmao.

Yup thanks for that. Cant unsee the baloon part.. you are so right.

Blizz cant make ingame rp good.. it never was and will always be blocky with bad animations. They always remind me of the power rangers in the 90s. There is an explosion, but they react 4 seconds later when the explosion already happened.

[Magnagarde]

It is going to be hillarious to see them giving reasons to absolve pretty much every villain and dillute the meaning of what it means to be one, while sending established characters down an arc that is more or less a 360 and a few expansions of character development wasted. They're going down this path of universal ambiguity for pretty much everything, to a point where no one will be able to tell if the grasslands of Mulgore are truly green. It is no wonder they can't write a compelling story because there's no point to their storytelling; the story unfolds just to have something unfold, not to reach a conclusion and pass judgement. What is the point in trying to tell a story if characters aren't held to account for their actions by the world and everyone around them.

Danuser will tell us Sylvanas' good half was preparing Thalassian Manapie in a parallel afterlife for her family with Nathanos; Golden will 360 carousel Anduin and write how he's finally become a man like his father because who knows why; Tyrande will be a refugee that returns home to nothing, no more and no less the character she was before the burning of Teldrassil. I sincerely hope it doesn't end up being like this, but things more or less point to a conclusion that is very similar.

[ravenmoon]

I will never understand why Vereesa continues to hang onto Sylvanas... after Sylvanas tried to kill her children and raise them as undead, not to mention having become a genocidal maniac. That's a relationship dealbreaker. No amount of "but, uh, she's my family!" can salvage that.

You know, right?!!

It's not like they've spent time showing us how close elven families are or the Windrunners are to justify such behaviour.

How can you view her as the same person? Faux drama?

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First of all, i hate this whole idea that the Jailer was controlling Lich King Arthas the entire time. Bellular keeps pushing it, it's hugely contradicting to him supposedly controlling Ner'zhul aswell and should just be left that he tried and failed.

Second, I don't think anyone was in control of Arthas except a shade of Arthas. This shade created the moment he took up Frostmourne and that Ner'zhul allowed him to have this agency. This is an Arthas that has all of Arthas' memories, it's an Arthas who thinks he's chosen the "dark side", who still enjoys the feeling death magic gives him. This clearly isn't Arthas at all before he picked up the blade, but is a version of Arthas who enjoys it... just like all the other good guys who were raised in undeath. This Arthas had a lot of free will, but he was still made to be faithful to Ner'zhul, until the control was lifted which he then betrays him and takes over. If he's controlled by the Jailer, he wouldn't need 5 years to decide what to do. This Arthas despite becoming way more cold, still had personality and that death scene shows he has a moment of his trueself. So yeah, no Ner'zhul, no Jailer, just an eviler version of Arthas stripped of his humanity which without it, we'd all be dicks aswell. The most Badass character in Warcraft isn't even really a person and I'm fine with that.


Have you ever seen Young Justice? There's a character I dont like, also uses a bow and we find out at the end, it's not even the real one. All the stuff he went through, good or bad isn't real for the real one(Red Arrow I think) but it did happen to that character(clone). That's kinda how i feel about them.
Anyways, I'm not a big Sylvanas fan, defended her few years cause Blizzard gave us Horde players a raw deal(You're the bad guys and... you're the bad guys again!!!)
but with Sylvanas, it's iffy. She's raised into undeath by someone else who I believe isn't even the real version of themselves. A Shade creating a Shade. Ner'zhul turned Arthas personally and wanted devotion, Arthas however raised Sylvanas but wanted to torment her. We haven't seen any other undead be tormented and loyal to their master as if it's ok. Just like the Death Knights who were fiercely loyal to Arthas, they turned on him the moment he admitted he sent them to die. Just saying that was enough to make them turn on him. Almost like no matter how much you try, if you give undead personalities, you give them the ability to hate you if you do them wrong. The odd thing is that Arthas allowed them to just leave the fold(didn't enforce control on their actions) while Sylvanas who hated him, couldn't break free until Illidan's attack... and then she tricked Arthas into thinking she was loyal lol.
Anyways, I'm not a big fan of hers. I see how logically it can work, but I feel Danuser isn't using the same logic, i think he just wants to save his waifu.

But that doesn't go against what I'm saying with Arthas and less extent Sylvanas. I get the feeling that comes with liking or loving a character and then learning it's been a clone or a fake the the whole time and feeling like that character is cheapened or lessened by the reveal(I had this in MGS5 with Venom Snake not being the real Big Boss, i still like him more though). But I have since day one on these forums been pointing that out, that this isn't real Arthas. His first interaction with Tichondrius basically lays it out that this is a version of Arthas with no pity, no remorse... no soul, how could this be the same Arthas?


Sometimes life be like that. Sometimes people have feelings towards someone over misunderstandings, sometimes medieval people don't understand how shades work when they take over a body. Just because a good character has hatred towards someone, doesn't mean that it's just. The Headless Horseman for instance hates Arthas, calls him out for turning evil... then becomes evil basically against his will. Lore Characters can be wrong... not you know Renathal not knowing who the Stonewright is, wrong(that's just ridiculous writing) but they can have hate for a character that has not been their fault. This reminds me of illidan aswell, someone who has had free will this whole time, who committed horrible atrocities and many characters are right to hate him... and he's actually good this whole time. But Arthas, soul stolen and humanity ripped from him isn't allowed to be

I know a lot of people feel one way or the other, you I feel are in the camp that it lessens the character(and I get that feeling), many others are in the camp that they deserve punishment(these are salty boys). and I'm over here trying to use logic and got Danuser somehow in the same camp, but he's only doing it cause he loves a fictional undead elf :/

I still think DK Arthas is the most Badass character in Warcraft and in Shadowlands, I would love to see him pop up and cause some chaos against both us and the Jailer.

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Hey it's almost like she's still undead.

My point is that when these character's who acted one way finally died, they expressed relief. It's not that they wanted it while undead, their undead personas agreed to follow the Lich King willingly until they died and it's revealed it wasn't really them.

Sylvanas' whole undead personality has always hated Arthas and Ner'zhul, so no change needed when she's freed, it would most likely come when she dies... but WAIT she has died you're thinking! and she's been raised by Scourge Valkyr each time, keeping the evil lady going.

What's another example? The Death Knights, they turned on Arthas when he revealed he sent them to die. But they haven't really changed their dark ways have they? No, they're even willing to slaughter trolls and kill Dragons, under Bol'var's orders. Almost like undeath is toxic to the mentality.

Interesting, it's like though a soul is split or a shade of someone created, it still bears marks of you even though it's not fully truly all you or wholly you.

Broken you though evil or able to be manipulated still has elements of you that can about, like Arthas, you can have a moment of clarity where parts of you show out.. think of it like a clone, it's not you but it's really you, now think of it as a clone missing certain parts.

There is away that the lich is able to control the undead, maybe it's because what you see in those DKs and others iis not truly them, but a shade/shadow of them, with the missing bits filled by the controller i.e. Lich King, Jailer etc.


Afterall, how is someone like that able to control someone in the first place? They can't exactly control living people directly (can through manipulation) but not outright force like DKs and Arthas could be forced

Anyway, i'ts not like the lore is clear.

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Again, there's no difference between an Undead version of a character and the living person beyond the physical effects of the curse and the trauma they go through by dying and becoming undead. Darion Mograine wasn't replaced by some "shadowperson" after he sacrificed himself and got ressurrected by Kel'Thuzad. He was just mindcontrolled until he managed to break free at Light's Hope Chapel. Death Knight Darion still loves his father and possesses the same traits he possessed in life (like being devoted to the point of self-sacrifice which he once again displays during the Legion Order Hall campaign).

The only real difference between these characters and regular ghouls is the degree of autonomy they are granted by the necromancer. Just compare characters like Sylvanas and Nathanos to Thomas Zelling and Derek Proudmoore. You will see that the thing that makes one a horrible person while the other is just a human suffering from a curse is not rooted in "MAGICCCS" but in the things they went through/were forced to do after they were raised. It's why these characters are tragic to begin with. They were basically mind-raped and forced to do evil shit until they were so corrupted by their deeds that even after regaining free will they weren't the same person because they couldn't let go of their past.

But is there? Are you sure there is no difference? There seems to be a definite difference.. it's not shadow person replacement, but just less of you or handicapped you, something is happening that hasn't been explained properly to us.

The person that did the act is fully responsible for what they did. So shade Arthas, Lich Arthas, undead Sylvanas all did those things they did, but that character is responsible for that, if that character is actually different from the previous one, then the previous one isn't entirely responsible.

then let's look at how they got there for Sylvanas, somebody ripped her apart, murdered her, then brought a fragmented part of her spirit back.

Remember she is banshee spirit, that then gets to repossess her original body. That banshee isn't the whole or full Sylvanas, why should we assume she is? It's obviously a broken spirit, not the complete thing, and while it contains parts of the original, it isn't the whole thing.

Not to mention she didn't do this to herself, unlike Kel'thuzard who chose to do this.

Arthas also chose to pick up Frostmourne although it changed him when he did, he chose too, he was manipulated true, he didn't do so knowing exactly that he'd be changed, he wanted a weapon to destroy the evil, but instead when he picks it up, he is changed, and now he becomes the evil. did anyone warn Arthas not to pick up Frostmourne that you can say he was told, and shown but did not listen. I believe Muradin was there with him, told him not to. Arthas doesn't get a second change after that, his chances were the chances to turn around when Uther and even Muradin told him. Yet Arthas that becomes the Lich King is not the same as Arthas that picked up Frostmourne. Arthas who picked up Frostmourne must be judged for al the actions he did up to that point, The rest is the responsibility of Ner'zhul and the Jailer.

[Jackstraw]

This whole shard of good unmakes a whole lot of everything and I am deeply unsettled by this dime a dozen scapegoat writing.

[Nerovar]

But is there? Are you sure there is no difference? There seems to be a definite difference.. it's not shadow person replacement, but just less of you or handicapped you, something is happening that hasn't been explained properly to us.

It's what I mean when I say "physical effects of the curse". The disconnect between body and soul created by the necromantic magical buffer is why Undead have lowered affects. That's where most of the change in personality comes from. The rest is just the fact that they have to somehow cope with being forced by the will of the necromancer to do all these horrible things. Naturally, your personality would adapt to regain some sense of control/autonomy and even then there are these rare exceptions like Zeliek who's faith is so strong that his personality remains largely unchanged even though he's subjugated by the Lich King/Kel'Thuzad.

The person that did the act is fully responsible for what they did. So shade Arthas, Lich Arthas, undead Sylvanas all did those things they did, but that character is responsible for that, if that character is actually different from the previous one, then the previous one isn't entirely responsible.

then let's look at how they got there for Sylvanas, somebody ripped her apart, murdered her, then brought a fragmented part of her spirit back.

Remember she is banshee spirit, that then gets to repossess her original body. That banshee isn't the whole or full Sylvanas, why should we assume she is? It's obviously a broken spirit, not the complete thing, and while it contains parts of the original, it isn't the whole thing.

Not to mention she didn't do this to herself, unlike Kel'thuzard who chose to do this.

Arthas also chose to pick up Frostmourne although it changed him when he did, he chose too, he was manipulated true, he didn't do so knowing exactly that he'd be changed, he wanted a weapon to destroy the evil, but instead when he picks it up, he is changed, and now he becomes the evil. did anyone warn Arthas not to pick up Frostmourne that you can say he was told, and shown but did not listen. I believe Muradin was there with him, told him not to. Arthas doesn't get a second change after that, his chances were the chances to turn around when Uther and even Muradin told him. Yet Arthas that becomes the Lich King is not the same as Arthas that picked up Frostmourne. Arthas who picked up Frostmourne must be judged for al the actions he did up to that point, The rest is the responsibility of Ner'zhul and the Jailer.

All I'm saying is that it making these distinctions is pointless. The stream of consciousness is there from Arthas as a kid to Arthas as the Lich King. Was he manipulated along the way? Sure. But that's only an explanation and not an excuse for his actions. Yes, these characters are obviously different from back when they were regular humans/elves but that's completely irrelevant. Why draw the line there? Why not say any evil character who had a bad childhood can't be held fully accountable so we judge parts of his soul separately? Do you see where we are going with this nonsense?

All of these characters like Arthas, Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas had their own choices at some point and none of them even asked for forgiveness. This is what has come to define these characters.

This whole shard of good unmakes a whole lot of everything and I am deeply unsettled by this dime a dozen scapegoat writing.

The writers have stopped caring years ago. They'd rather bend the entire universe around one character than follow the logical conclusions of their own stories.