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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    "3 minutes every day for a week".

    I haven't seen that request yet, please provide your evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    So make world quest gear where i play catch with a doggo for 3minutes reward same gear as m15? sure thing.... lul
    Literally the post i replied to, and the only reason i mentioned the "3 minutes"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    You have it backwards. Why should the hardest content even reward gear? It's about the challenge, right?
    There it is - finally showing your true colours - and its VERY green. You can check out any of the other dozens of threads where "casuals" complain that they should have BETTEr loot than mythic raiders, so they can compete with them. Take your pick of thread, it all ends the same - just like in game, the "casuals" give up when the conversation gets hard.

    Casuals endlessly complain that they need better loot so their character can "grow" and "feel more powerful", and so they can complete content they are stuck on - hell, even the casuals who only play solo and dont do any group content at all, meaning leveling greens is more than enough for them, they still want to grow and feel more powerful - and i AGREE they should have meaningful character progression - and yet you think players doing the hardest content in the game should be happy without this?

    The reason this ends badly for you, is that the same logic you are so desperately trying to use against them entirely dismantles your OWN argument when applied to "casuals". For example: "why do casuals need better loot? its about the journey, right?" - this is a terrible argument, as is yours. You have shown yourself to be quite jealous and vindictive towards players of a higher skill and dedication to you, someone really sad to see. Want the good loot? Go do the content. Cant do the content? Get better.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-16 at 05:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    Why? Why do you need the best gear to do the hardest challenges? Wouldn't it be a better challenge and more prestigious without gear?
    See where I'm going with this?
    You misunderstand. We're not talking about requirements here (thankfully because the requirement for open world content is to have a pulse and one working hand). We're talking about rewards and how they're used to incentive and, well, reward players. It's common wisdom that hardest challenge = better loot in the MMO genre and I'd much rather WoW abide by this rather than decide everyone gets everything for the pure sake of it. I'm not one for prestige much but a Mythic raider should have better stuff than someone who only does WQs.

    And as someone else said, your argument defeats your own premise- why do casual players need better loot in the first place in turn? We're only ever going to argue in circles if you keep this up.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You misunderstand. We're not talking about requirements here (thankfully because the requirement for open world content is to have a pulse and one working hand). We're talking about rewards and how they're used to incentive and, well, reward players. It's common wisdom that hardest challenge = better loot in the MMO genre and I'd much rather WoW abide by this rather than decide everyone gets everything for the pure sake of it. I'm not one for prestige much but a Mythic raider should have better stuff than someone who only does WQs.

    And as someone else said, your argument defeats your own premise- why do casual players need better loot in the first place in turn? We're only ever going to argue in circles if you keep this up.
    I tried explaining this, but now @Clash the DK is suggesting Mythic raiding shouldnt reward loot at all. They all eventually show their true colours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There it is - finally showing your true colours - and its VERY green. You can check out any of the other dozens of threads where "casuals" complain that they should have BETTEr loot than mythic raiders, so they can compete with them. Take your pick of thread, it all ends the same - just like in game, the "casuals" give up when the conversation gets hard.

    Casuals endlessly complain that they need better loot so their character can "grow" and "feel more powerful", and so they can complete content they are stuck on - hell, even the casuals who only play solo and dont do any group content at all, meaning leveling greens is more than enough for them, they still want to grow and feel more powerful - and i AGREE they should have meaningful character progression - and yet you think players doing the hardest content in the game should be happy without this?

    The reason this ends badly for you, is that the same logic you are so desperately trying to use against them entirely dismantles your OWN argument when applied to "casuals". For example: "why do casuals need better loot? its about the journey, right?" - this is a terrible argument, as is yours.
    You overestimate your point of view.

    World content is basically the only place where you can feel those power gains from ilvl. It's the base part of the game that is an extension of the leveling process. We are talking about the core essence of RPGs. You can queque up for group content in multiple games whether it be for PvE or PvP. But the MMORPG should consist of a legitimate and rewarding progression system within the world all the way to endgame.

    Content that revolves around challenges doesn't technically require gear rewards. See: Torghast Endless Layers. You could add a stat template (like they did for PvP in the past) and that content would still function the same. But I'm not calling for a design where you don't receive gear from Raids, etc. I don't get my kicks from dictating what other people find fun. I'm just saying that gear progression is more important to world content and most definitely should not be dismissed because that content is considered easier.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    You overestimate your point of view.

    But the MMORPG should consist of a legitimate and rewarding progression system within the world all the way to endgame.
    The irony here is astounding - when did you become the almighty authority on what an mmo rpg SHOULD be? I think it is YOU who is overestimating their PoV, and mistaking their personal preferences with facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's common wisdom that hardest challenge = better loot in the MMO genre and I'd much rather WoW abide by this rather than decide everyone gets everything for the pure sake of it. I'm not one for prestige much but a Mythic raider should have better stuff than someone who only does WQs.
    I would argue that soloing some elites in the Maw is just as difficult as anything you find in a Raid. So where does that leave us?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The irony here is astounding - when did you become the almighty authority on what an mmo rpg SHOULD be? I think it is YOU who is overestimating their PoV, and mistaking their personal preferences with facts.
    I'm not wrong. And so you have nothing to add to the debate. Typical.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    I would argue that soloing some elites in the Maw is just as difficult as anything you find in a Raid. So where does that leave us?
    .
    With you showing you have zero understanding of raids, and showing yourself to be wrong. Very, very wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    With you showing you have zero understanding of raids, and showing yourself to be wrong. Very, very wrong.
    I have put my time into the raid scene. I understand it all too well. Therefore, I can no longer take you seriously.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    I have put my time into the raid scene. I understand it all too well. Therefore, I can no longer take you seriously.
    You think soloing a random elite in the maw is the same as a mythic raid boss - I wouldn't question anyone else if I was you. This has been mentioned many times, in almost all of these "I want more loot" threads, and it always become very apparent who has and has not done any form of challenging raid content. Comparing a random elite in the maw to a mythic raid boss is pretty far out there even for the typically ill-informed non-raiders.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-16 at 06:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  10. #90
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    At that point you can just hand out gear from a vendor. Max level gear from WQ... lol.

    Honestly if they did that i think i would quit.... Seperate gear sets for every part of the game? Max level loot for.... well nothing...

    You would need to armory vet every freaking person to see of they have the right set because iLvl would be completly useless.

    You say Blizz should not cater to people who want to play in groups IN A MMO! I say a MMO should never ever cater to single player focused gamers because there are hundreds of games for those. Leave at least the 2-3 viable games that exists in that direction alone without turning them in your own personal loot pinata.
    Just want to say I certainly haven't found any new single player rpgs with any longevity coming out in the past several years. They're quite rare in my experience.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Just want to say I certainly haven't found any new single player rpgs with any longevity coming out in the past several years. They're quite rare in my experience.
    Check out some of the following, depending on your tastes and definition of "several"

    - Final Fantasy
    - Breath of the Wild
    - Dragon Quest XI
    - Monster Hunter World
    - Monster Hunter Rise
    - Witcher 3
    - Xenoblade Chronicles 2 / X
    - Dark Souls 3
    - NieR: Automata
    - Pillars of Eternity 2
    - Divinity original sin 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  12. #92
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Check out some of the following, depending on your tastes and definition of "several"

    - Final Fantasy
    - Breath of the Wild
    - Dragon Quest XI
    - Monster Hunter World
    - Monster Hunter Rise
    - Witcher 3
    - Xenoblade Chronicles 2 / X
    - Dark Souls 3
    - NieR: Automata
    - Pillars of Eternity 2
    - Divinity original sin 2
    While many of these may be spot on, (Special mentions to Divinity Original Sin 2, Nier, and Witcher 3) I might have been better served to stipulate that I meant ones that appeal to me specifically. I tried Monster Hunter, didn't care for it, and I'm not a fan of Real-Time w/ pause rpgs.

    A lot of people who play WoW in "single player mode" likely do so because it offers them a package they enjoy, while also being a game which will be updated practically forever. They don't have to walk away from it after 60 or so hours because it's probably going to be updated in a few months' time with more to do. Single player games end, MMOs just... don't.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think soloing a random elite in the maw is the same as a mythic raid boss - I wouldn't question anyone else if I was you. This has been mentioned many times, in almost all of these "I want more loot" threads, and it always become very apparent who has and has not done any form of challenging raid content. Comparing a random elite in the maw to a mythic raid boss is pretty far out there even for the typically ill-informed non-raiders.
    You have no clue what you are talking about. PvE is not hard. Attack, dodge, interrupt this or that, stay out of the fire, etc... It's the same mechanics in all aspects of the game. The only difficult thing about more "challenging" PvE content is finding enough people to stay awake while beating up the mobile target dummy. And I'm not going to flash my credentials to prove my point to some rando if that's what you're after. I've done top end raiding for multiple expansions and I've really had enough of your trolling.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    I would argue that soloing some elites in the Maw is just as difficult as anything you find in a Raid. So where does that leave us?

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not wrong. And so you have nothing to add to the debate. Typical.
    Well that leaves us to you being wrong, quite obviously. How many world elites require a hundred+ pulls, the very best consumables, highly elaborate strategies covering multiple phases and a dozen abilities, and the best available gear to down? And why would you solo them when getting a group to stomp any Maw elite in the game into the ground takes a press of two buttons? Raids have a fixed size and you can't just bring in more bodies to trivialize anything. Your comparison is entirely off-base.

    I mean unless you're trying to be clever and saying that downing a World Boss solo is hard- which obviously it is next to impossible because it's meant to be a raid boss killed by a group. I could also be clever and say downing Mythic solo is 100% completely impossible and thus harder than your Maw elites, but again that would be arguing in circles and I've no idea where you're going with this brand of... logic.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think soloing a random elite in the maw is the same as a mythic raid boss - I wouldn't question anyone else if I was you. This has been mentioned many times, in almost all of these "I want more loot" threads, and it always become very apparent who has and has not done any form of challenging raid content. Comparing a random elite in the maw to a mythic raid boss is pretty far out there even for the typically ill-informed non-raiders.
    You still believe they can be convinced?
    That at the end of the say there can be some sort of revelation for them? It is just a numbers game to them.
    The content honestly doesn't matter to them... they just want to see their numbers go up.

    If you suggest that anything else could matter they will immediately dismiss it.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Well that leaves us to you being wrong, quite obviously. How many world elites require a hundred+ pulls, the very best consumables, highly elaborate strategies covering multiple phases and a dozen abilities, and the best available gear to down? And why would you solo them when getting a group to stomp any Maw elite in the game into the ground takes a press of two buttons? Raids have a fixed size and you can't just bring in more bodies to trivialize anything. Your comparison is entirely off-base.

    I mean unless you're trying to be clever and saying that downing a World Boss solo is hard- which obviously it is next to impossible because it's meant to be a raid boss killed by a group. I could also be clever and say downing Mythic solo is 100% completely impossible and thus harder than your Maw elites, but again that would be arguing in circles and I've no idea where you're going with this brand of... logic.
    Combat is combat. If you're fighting something that can kill you if you make a mistake, then that would be classified under "difficult" content.
    Arguing in circles is all this forum site is good for and frankly, it's exhausting.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash the DK View Post
    Combat is combat. If you're fighting something that can kill you if you make a mistake, then that would be classified under "difficult" content.
    Arguing in circles is all this forum site is good for and frankly, it's exhausting.
    That seems like saying a relaxing hiking trip and an Olympic marathon are equally difficult, because after all both have the potential to make you tired. You're reducing the argument to an absurd extreme in order to avoid being wrong. I don't believe you when you said previously you did top end raiding, not when you then turn around and say PvE is lolez and Maw elites are the same as Mythic raiding because both can technically kill you.

    I also don't believe you warrant any more of my time or attention. Good day.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That seems like saying a relaxing hiking trip and an Olympic marathon are equally difficult, because after all both have the potential to make you tired. You're reducing the argument to an absurd extreme in order to avoid being wrong. I don't believe you when you said previously you did top end raiding, not when you then turn around and say PvE is lolez and Maw elites are the same as Mythic raiding because both can technically kill you.

    I also don't believe you warrant any more of my time or attention. Good day.
    I'm not interested in whether you believe me or not. It's not relevant to the discussion.

    People are so dug into their belief system of how they think the game should work and shouldn't change so they take zero time to try and understand what other people with different opinions are even trying to convey. I get it, most of you who have replied do not want to see good gear in the hands of people who refuse to do group content. It's as simple as that. Hopefully Blizz gets it eventually and creates a gear system that works better for all players.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Just want to say I certainly haven't found any new single player rpgs with any longevity coming out in the past several years. They're quite rare in my experience.
    Well yeah because single player games are not about longevity. They are about a great limited experience. You play it for 40-50h and finsih it. Maybe come back 2 years later and try a different path (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Witcher, Cyberpunk, Baldurs Gate, Assasins Credd etcpp)

    If you want a stroy focused SP MMO go play Swtor and ESO or even FF14. They have story you can play alone. Progression is basically guaranteed as you will not really be challenged anywhere or rely on anyone. Granted FF14 is more like wow than the other two in regard to playerattitude.

  20. #100
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I tried explaining this, but now @Clash the DK is suggesting Mythic raiding shouldnt reward loot at all. They all eventually show their true colours.
    He's right it shouldn't. The upshot of this is that if it was handled correctly you could raid log and not have to worry about ever leaving your mythic raiding bubble.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-05-16 at 08:11 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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