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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They needed to fundamentally change their approach years ago. If they had done that, maybe they wouldn't have lost 95+% of the people who have ever played the game.
    You think its a bad thing that 95% of the people who have played wow over the last 17 years no longer play it? I think thats an astonishing retention rate over such a long period. Its also an entirely useless stat, and you know that. What is important is each expansions player retention - the fact some kid tried wow in 2004 and said "not for me" and no longer played it is in absolutely no way relevant to Shadowlands.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-17 at 12:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  2. #62
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So after 17 years as one of if not the most successful mmo of all time, a genre defining game, that has maintained the same rewards structure since 2004 - now we need to suddenly fundamentally change those systems so we dont lose "casuals"...Im sure you can understand why so many people are highly skeptical.
    Yes it's much more preferable to watch it slowly sink into irrelevance and obscurity while loosing market share so mythic raiding assholes can feel special. *shrug* I wonder if somebody on the titanic said well it was unsinkable why change course?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think its a bad thing that 5% of the people who have played wow over the last 17 years no longer play it? I think thats an astonishing retention rate over such a long period. Its also an entirely useless stat, and you know that. What is important is each expansions player retention - the fact some kid tried wow in 2004 and said "not for me" and no longer played it is in absolutely no way relevant to Shadowlands.
    Of course spin the negative! Have you considered running for office?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Of course spin the negative! Have you considered running for office?
    What negative? If anything im "spinning" a positive - I'm saying its an amazing retention rate over 17 years. Now if shadowlands retention rate was 5%, then we would be having a very different conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    . *shrug* I wonder if somebody on the titanic said well it was unsinkable why change course?
    Actually this is far closer to a few individuals on a cruise liner running around screaming "the ship is sinking, the ship is sinking!" all because someone tipped over a glass of water.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  4. #64
    When OT said that he's "probably on the mark" I chuckled
    This is one of the worst diagnoses/ideas/opinions/whatever that I have seen for the last few years and it surely misses the mark heavily

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think its a bad thing that 5% of the people who have played wow over the last 17 years no longer play it?
    That's the complete opposite of what I wrote.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's the complete opposite of what I wrote.
    Correct - fat finger moment - 95%, as you said. This is extremely clear if you read my post. Considering that number could be 200,000,000, 300,000,000 or even more, i think retaining 5% of the players over almost 2 decades is astonishing, dont you agree?

    When discussing the current state of the game, its important to look at statistics and data that represent exactly that - the current state of the game. That someone played vanilla and said "not for me" is in no way relevant to SL. The retention data for SHADOWLANDS is what is important.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-17 at 12:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Correct - fat finger moment - 95%, as you said. This is extremely clear if you read my post. Considering that number could be 200,000,000, 300,000,000 or even more, i think retaining 5% of the players over almost 2 decades is astonishing, dont you agree?
    No, I don't think it's all that great. I think they could have done much better had they not been so stubborn. I think the franchise could be in much healthier condition if they had made different decisions. Consider how, say, Call of Duty has done over the same time period.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I don't think it's all that great. I think they could have done much better had they not been so stubborn. I think the franchise could be in much healthier condition if they had made different decisions. Consider how, say, Call of Duty has done over the same time period.
    You think there are more than 5% of the players who played CoD back in 2003, or any of the subsequent releases, still play? Where are you getting this data from? Also, I certainly hope you are not using just warzone to form that conclusion, its entirely F2P, and is spread across multiple platforms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    WoW is NOT a lobby MMO, it is treated like such, doesn't make it such.
    You've got that backward. That you treat it as something else, doesn't change that it is a lobby mmo.

  10. #70
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I don't think it's all that great. I think they could have done much better had they not been so stubborn. I think the franchise could be in much healthier condition if they had made different decisions. Consider how, say, Call of Duty has done over the same time period.
    I find it hilarious that a lot of people hate Activision and its influence on Blizzard since 2008 while you are arguing, to some degree, that Blizzard should have been more like Activision and took a path similar to Call of Duty. You don't typically see people wanting to have a treadmill of similar content released year after year.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Don't use year 2005-2008 MMORPG mindset towards 2021 WoW.

    The way people made or played games back in 2006-2008 is long dead.

    Time to move on
    That may be part of the issue tbh. This demand for games to become lobby-oriented so people could get in and out quickly removed a lot of the social / worldbuilding aspects. People are no busier today than they were in the late 90's early 2000's. You personally may be, but the average adult is no busier than they were.

    So really caving to the rapid appeasement model to satisfy the masses is really just pandering to the lowest common denominators, aka wow players.

  12. #72
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    You've got that backward. That you treat it as something else, doesn't change that it is a lobby mmo.
    Lol. You do realize you just describe the rational for why you and others think WoW is a lobby MMO. Because you treat it that way doesn't mean it is the case and WoW is still far from a lobby MMO. Which zone is the lobby? Dalaran? IF? Stormwind? Revendreth? Oribos?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You think there are more than 5% of the players who played CoD back in 2003, or any of the subsequent releases, still play?
    Given that sales of CoD games have increased since then, but WoW's subs have declined substantially from the peak, the retention is probably better than WoW's.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    That may be part of the issue tbh. This demand for games to become lobby-oriented so people could get in and out quickly removed a lot of the social / worldbuilding aspects. People are no busier today than they were in the late 90's early 2000's. You personally may be, but the average adult is no busier than they were.

    So really caving to the rapid appeasement model to satisfy the masses is really just pandering to the lowest common denominators, aka wow players.
    Adapting your product to the actual playerbase, instead of the one you wish you had, is just common sense. Even if you call it "lowest common denominator" or other fancy names that make you feel superior somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Given that sales of CoD games have increased since then, but WoW's subs have declined substantially from the peak, the retention is probably better than WoW's.
    You realize the effort that cod needs to put into their stuff to have good retention rate is nowhere near what wow needs to do? cod literally does the same changing nothing and they keep the same audience, which works for them, while wow was gonna have "negative" retention rate inevitably, a lot of factors contribute to losing subs progressively unless somewhere in your mind theres a WoW that can keep 12M subs over 13 years, and if thats the case any conversation isnt worth at all cause you would live in a dream world, world that a lot of people live in mmo champion

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Given that sales of CoD games have increased since then, but WoW's subs have declined substantially from the peak, the retention is probably better than WoW's.
    This is the problem with just blindly making assumptions - CoD sales have NOT increased - they peaked in 2010/2011 with Black ops and Modern Warfare 3, then dipped MASSIVELY for the releases in subsequent years, all the way down to the second worst performing game in the series being launched in 2017.

    I do think the latest releases has probably seen a strong resurgence in the franchises numbers, not in small part due to the huge success of Warzone - but to claim CoD sales have increased since launch is very disingenuous at best, given the sharp and dramatic dropoff in sales post mid 2000s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You realize the effort that cod needs to put into their stuff to have good retention rate is nowhere near what wow needs to do? cod literally does the same changing nothing and they keep the same audience, which works for them, while wow was gonna have "negative" retention rate inevitably, a lot of factors contribute to losing subs progressively unless somewhere in your mind theres a WoW that can keep 12M subs over 13 years, and if thats the case any conversation isnt worth at all cause you would live in a dream world, world that a lot of people live in mmo champion
    Its actually far worse than that - the data is out there for anyone to look up themselves, and CoD main releases dropped by over 10,000,000 between 2010 and 2017. So not only is the premise flawed - but the data shows the exact opposite of what they think it does.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-05-17 at 01:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  17. #77
    I just keep being fascinated how people who don't even play the game come up with new things to complain about every other day.
    Was this gem of a topic coined by one of the "WoW content creators" as well?

    If anyone really argues that WoW is like LoL, Hearthstone or literally any other moba / battle royale "lobby game" then I don't know why we have to pretend to have a civil discussion with that person.
    This is so disconnected from reality.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Its actually far worse than that - the data is out there for anyone to look up themselves, and CoD main releases dropped by over 10,000,000 between 2010 and 2017. So not only is the premise flawed - but the data shows the exact opposite of what they think it does.
    Would you look at that, i wonder if WoW just sucks or its following the normal timeline of a product over the years, mmmmm i really wonder, but lets not kid ourselves, we all know that if blizz capped WoW at Wotlk it would still have 12M players right now right? right?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Would you look at that, i wonder if WoW just sucks or its following the normal timeline of a product over the years, mmmmm i really wonder, but lets not kid ourselves, we all know that if blizz capped WoW at Wotlk it would still have 12M players right now right? right?
    When 2 years from now WotLK Classic comes out there will be a huge "look, we told WotLK was the shit" moment then it will be abandoned for being slow and old-school just like Classic was and just like TBC Classic will be by the end of autumn.

    It is what it is. After that there will be loads of "but the REAL wotlk..." bla bla posts and these people will never stop.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Would you look at that, i wonder if WoW just sucks or its following the normal timeline of a product over the years, mmmmm i really wonder, but lets not kid ourselves, we all know that if blizz capped WoW at Wotlk it would still have 12M players right now right? right?
    To be fair, im pretty sure the latest CoD has seen a return to form for Call of Duty fans - I wouldn't at all be surprised if it had come somewhat close to the previous records from a decade ago. But there certainly was a massive drop over all titles released during that period, and im wondering how much of it is tied to their successful implementation of the BR warzone, a F2P component of the same game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

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