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  1. #121
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Nobody said it was "keeping it simple." You just added that out of nowhere. And no shit it can be solved with a flying mount as clearly it WAS solved with a flying mount, I'm saying that's the easy way out, why are we taking the easy way out in the biggest MMO on the market?
    What is keeping it simple if not the easy way? It is the same solution as the alternatives you proposed. There are very few puzzles in WoW that are broken by flying that wouldn't be broken by teleports, parachutes, flight paths, etc. It is why the goblin glider is the MVP of most content. Also it is funny you say it would take longer to get some places while also advocating for teleports to replace flying mounts in places.

    You do know a teleport is instantaneous right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #122
    The Patient Laz's Avatar
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    If this were on YouTube, it would be classified as "Click Bait". Don't try to lump everyone into your generalization of WoW players.
    I would not have played Wow continuously since April 2005 if I didn't care about WoW and the community.
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  3. #123
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Teleports and flight paths are to a specific location, you can't "break" any puzzle with a teleport that isn't directed INTO the puzzle. Which, obviously, as it's not player controlled, it wouldn't be. There are a hundred different NPC teleports that work this way in game already, and never once have they been abused. And flight paths are pre-set with predetermined start and end points, and no player control in between...
    Modern parachutes are just slow fall and most allow you to control directions. It is weird that you call someone trolling when you lack knowledge on the game. With all the glide toys though it won't matter if a parachute can't be controlled because you know you can cancel it. If you can't cancel it then you are just asking for a flight path by a different name. I was including all of the different travel methods as a catch all though. You are the one that directly brought up all of these things as counters to flying.

    We were also talking about these measures for designs like the 3 end-game zones of WotLK. That is when you specifically brought up teleports. Flight paths only take longer then a flying mount because they follow a set path and can not deviate. In Shadowlands it takes less then 5 mins to fly from the furthest flight path in one zone to the furthest in another.

    You just keep asking for "flying mounts" but restricted so puzzles that are already easily avoided don't get avoided. That is silly. Just have flying mounts instead of creating silly stuff to fill that void. Even in TBC they had "no flying zones" by simply knocking you off your mount. It was an annoyance not a stellar game design and one that isn't an issue in modern wow with all the ways to making falling a non-issue.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-05-17 at 05:02 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #124
    Well he's got a point. You enter the AH lobby, buy a token, enter the premade group finder lobby, buy a boost.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Wow is literally a lobby mmorpg. It’s the very definition of a lobby theme park mmo arpg
    No it is not. You are literally mistaken and just plain wrong in everyway if you for one momeny think this.

  6. #126
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvaelz View Post
    Well he's got a point. You enter the AH lobby, buy a token, enter the premade group finder lobby, buy a boost.
    You forgot the run around Oribos looking for someone on a AH mount lobby.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by nvaelz View Post
    Well he's got a point. You enter the AH lobby, buy a token, enter the premade group finder lobby, buy a boost.
    Only a very...very small portion of the playerbase does this, maybe 1%. Most just play quietly. It is like the people on mmoc who complain thinking they are the majority; they aren't. They are less than 1% of the playerbase.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Only a very...very small portion of the playerbase does this, maybe 1%. Most just play quietly. It is like the people on mmoc who complain thinking they are the majority; they aren't. They are less than 1% of the playerbase.
    This exactly.
    The forums here just show time and time again how little they interact with actual casual players.


    I think they'd all benefit from taking some time to join family guilds, casual raiding guilds that consider heroic their progression, etc.

    You'll see tons of people who are talking about going out to farm pets in the world, that are excited to just get a rare drop finally from a rare, etc. Honestly as you go up the WoW ladder in difficulty, that's when you'll start to find the players who log in just to head right to instances. That isn't to say all high end players are like that, as I'm sure there's still a few who care about collecting things. But I'd be willing to wager that the ratio for collectors is more leaning towards the non-cutting edge players.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    This exactly.
    The forums here just show time and time again how little they interact with actual casual players.


    I think they'd all benefit from taking some time to join family guilds, casual raiding guilds that consider heroic their progression, etc.

    You'll see tons of people who are talking about going out to farm pets in the world, that are excited to just get a rare drop finally from a rare, etc. Honestly as you go up the WoW ladder in difficulty, that's when you'll start to find the players who log in just to head right to instances. That isn't to say all high end players are like that, as I'm sure there's still a few who care about collecting things. But I'd be willing to wager that the ratio for collectors is more leaning towards the non-cutting edge players.
    I think you are overestimating the amount of players who just “play their way”. The vast majority of players in this game doesn’t fall in either or category. The vast majority does both: they do endgame weekly vault content and they farm mounts, pets, cosmetics, toys, etc.

    The vast majority of WoW players picks the numerically best covenant for their class/spec. Contrary to what all the loud people here on mmo-c and reddit said prior to release. The vast majority of players are actually playing the game in a similar way. This idea of the casual who just logs in and plays just for funsies is not reality. People look up guides, ask in general chat for help about their spec and go with the flow.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Ah. So you only consider things that support your view as a valid argument?
    No, I'm going to point out that the argument that you tried to use "proves too much". That's a sign it's not a valid argument.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_too_much

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Your argument falls apart here, because if you look at the Sales metrics(Even just first day sales) WoW has been growing, not shrinking, for it's entire life, except for MoP and Legion:
    I think your argument falls apart when you look at the details. In particular, China either didn't have sales or they weren't included in the numbers for a long time (China didn't even have synchronized release of new expansions until MoP), and there were games played with whether pre-sales counted along with first day sales.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2021-05-17 at 12:07 PM.
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  11. #131
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    There is a lot of content in the world zones, but if you choose not to do it, it may seem like a lobby game.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    No it is not. You are literally mistaken and just plain wrong in everyway if you for one momeny think this.
    Is there a capital city everyone meets up in? Can you queue for activities and dungeons and raids without ever moving? If the answer is yes, it is a lobby mmo arpg.

    See classic is more of an mmo rpg since you had to walk to the dungeons or pvp to que up

    Once you add ques, cross server too, it becomes no more than a lobby game.

    Try and keep up

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WeControlThingsNotYou View Post
    I think most of the playerbase just quit quietly.
    If they didn’t have classic and tbc propping their numbers up, I suspect there’d be full panic going on inside Blizz at the debacle that is retail currently

  13. #133
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazen View Post
    There is a lot of content in the world zones, but if you choose not to do it, it may seem like a lobby game.
    Why would anyone bother to do that "lot of content in the world zones" when it becomes obsolete so quickly?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    If they didn’t have classic and tbc propping their numbers up, I suspect there’d be full panic going on inside Blizz at the debacle that is retail currently
    The very fact that they don't make any distinction between retail and classic in their public records is really... Interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Why would anyone bother to do that "lot of content in the world zones" when it becomes obsolete so quickly?

    - - - Updated - - -



    The very fact that they don't make any distinction between retail and classic in their public records is really... Interesting.
    there is only 1 reason not to show it, and that's for one title to prop up the #'s of the other so they can tell shareholders "see how many we have total?" rather than break down which 1 is the weak link, and it damn sure wasn't classic.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    I have to disagree. One of the chief complaints during WoD was that once you completed leveling there was zero world content what so ever.
    World Quests introduction in Legion was a very popular addition when announced.

    I’d say the larger issue stems from Blizzard failing to make world content both engaging but not feel mandatory. Anima rewards in Legion would have been a good ‘attempt’ if the world quests were even remotely ‘fun’ or ‘meaningful’.
    Alas, their design team from Raids/Dungeons is clearly not the same team generating PvE world content.
    I was about to write this, good thing I read through the thread.

    Exactly this. When Blizzard decides to get off its lazy ass and make content worth consuming, THEN players will give a shit about the world.

    But when you have literal time-gating "features" that keep us doing mindless chores for the sake of gating progression, you kinda stop giving a shit about the world and are focused on getting the bullshit chore list out the way. Once all that is over, being it world quests or dailies, a certain kind of exhaustive feeling ensues and personally, I just want a break afterwards... Until the next morning where I get to do the bullshit chore list all over again.

  16. #136
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I'm going to point out that the argument that you tried to use "proves too much". That's a sign it's not a valid argument.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_too_much
    So the opposite of your view proves to much and is a fallacy. But your view is perfect fine logically because you've made it? Weird how that happens to work out huh? The amusing part is your own argument fits the fallacy just as much as you claim mine does. Because you can prove anything left money on the table if you simply invent that they left money on the table.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #137
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So the opposite of your view proves to much and is a fallacy. But your view is perfect fine logically because you've made it? Weird how that happens to work out huh? The amusing part is your own argument fits the fallacy just as much as you claim mine does. Because you can prove anything left money on the table if you simply invent that they left money on the table.
    The opposite of a fallacy can also be fallacious, you learn that as an university freshman.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  18. #138
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The opposite of a fallacy can also be fallacious, you learn that as an university freshman.
    A freshman fallacy class explains why most tend to use it as a "I win" button rather then an argument of merit.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #139
    I used to, but I don't anymore. Reasons being:

    1) I've given up on achievements/rare mount collecting.
    2) I can afford any consumables I need for instanced content.
    3) Professions are terrible right now.
    4) No world content is required at all. I've long since been done with the Maw/sockets.
    5) World PvP alone isn't enough to make up for all the above.

    But most importantly, world content is mostly solo content, and solo content in WoW is the very last thing I'd want to do. If I'm playing solo, why on earth would I play WoW to begin with...

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So the opposite of your view proves to much and is a fallacy.
    It's not a fallacy because it's the opposite of what I said. It's a fallacy because of the logical structure of what you said. Your argument raised such a high bar that criticism of any game would be ruled out.

    I suggest you reconstruct your argument so that it isn't obviously logically bogus.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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