TBC Phase 1 Loot Priorities

[Prag]

Thank you, Skulkers Greaves came up in the discussion as a Leather item every hunter will want to take, and it is items like that that I wanna hear about, so I can present them as issues to resolve. I have absolutely no clue about any caster DPS competitions, or Healer competitions though

Also thanks to people for replies, I wasn't sure if I'd get a string of "We're not here to do your homework for you" responses :P

I imagine lots of LC guilds are in your position too!

Here are the Hunter BIS sets:

Survival T4 BiS [Realistic]
6% Hit 2H (Weave) https://seventyupgrades.com/set/mVJuafKwGqmhgm5k6mCL7A
9% Hit 2H (Weave) https://seventyupgrades.com/set/cLVt8QnEWJKjqXaipSQZpg
6% Hit 1H (Non-weave) https://seventyupgrades.com/set/bYeSTp9BjcaBQc4Ev58H3
9% Hit 1H (Non Weave) https://seventyupgrades.com/set/7a6gbj2dvC7YfVqHp1qVkj

BM doesn’t have one pinned but it shouldn’t differ too much. SV loves Agi because of EW so anything with Agi > AP, Crit or a bunch of red sockets is high priority.

[Nite92]

Scheme is not a negative word, it's just another word for strategy or system. Either way the team gets stronger. I've played with both and I've played with both where there was no loot drama. I've gotten a few world first where it's a no-brainer to trade loot for 0.02% of performance. I've played in casual guilds where the potential social disruption over 2% doesn't justify forcing someone to trade loot. Nice if you want to do it, but no problem if you don't.

I totally agree. I never said that this the only way to play the game. But it is the "most efficient" way to gear your raid. Also, social disruption is in general not caused by saying "hunters get DST first". The reason for loot drama is (in most cases) unfair treatment/not clear rules. For example, if the rogue girlfriend of the GM gets DST 2nd in a "hunters get DST first" guild.

Also, why is every 100th guy on these forums a world first raider. That statement is pretty hard to believe at face value without something to back it up.

[Cracked]

I totally agree. I never said that this the only way to play the game. But it is the "most efficient" way to gear your raid. Also, social disruption is in general not caused by saying "hunters get DST first". The reason for loot drama is (in most cases) unfair treatment/not clear rules. For example, if the rogue girlfriend of the GM gets DST 2nd in a "hunters get DST first" guild.

Also, why is every 100th guy on these forums a world first raider. That statement is pretty hard to believe at face value without something to back it up.

Well, at this point a lot of people have rotated in and out of the world first guilds. Also, who do you think the most dedicated people to the game are? Posters on a forum like this go through a hard self-selection bias.

[Super Kami Dende]

Healing Maces, MP5 better for Paladin/Shaman, Spirit Better for Priest/Druid

[AeneasBK]

I imagine lots of LC guilds are in your position too!

Yeah in retrospect I should probably have titled this entirely as a Loot Coucil thread, as essentially that's the tree I'm barking up Thanks for your links

[Bagrod]

If someone rather pugs because hunters get prio on DST, then be my fuckin guest and leave. All that this shows is, that the person leaving has no idea how the game works, and I'd rather have someone else instead of him.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

That is the reason why I stopped playing classic sooner or later again.

The raids were a fucking joke, there was no need to prioritize any loot to class X only, because on a Spreadsheet it does 0.4% more damage for them and is BIS.

This is why I as a Feral Tank had to pass on leather items for rogues, because they would need them, as soon as they would switch to Daggers (which did not happen for another 1,5 months when I quit, and I am not sure he ever switched to daggers) while for me those would have been BIS until ZG.

[Nite92]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

That is the reason why I stopped playing classic sooner or later again.

The raids were a fucking joke, there was no need to prioritize any loot to class X only, because on a Spreadsheet it does 0.4% more damage for them and is BIS.

This is why I as a Feral Tank had to pass on leather items for rogues, because they would need them, as soon as they would switch to Daggers (which did not happen for another 1,5 months when I quit, and I am not sure he ever switched to daggers) while for me those would have been BIS until ZG.

I have zero clue about feral rogue items. But just because your LC did not work, does not mean that LC is shit. It can be shit due to unqualified people being in charge. There is nothing wrong with the approach of "I go raid, and roll on upgrades". That is perfectly fine, but it is the strictly worse approach in terms of player power.

I agree that it might seem useless, due to the ease of content, but it is just a mentality thing. It feels bad for me to get an item that is a bigger upgrade to johnny. That is from a pov of someone who has been in pretty organized/good guilds. This is just the general approach for lets say top 500 mythic guilds.

[kukkamies]

Wish we had 10man option. During raids in MoP we had the default loot of need/greed. With 20 I guess more people will ninja? Or what's the loot drama usually. Why is there loot council over need/greed roll

[Bagrod]

That is from a pov of someone who has been in pretty organized/good guilds. This is just the general approach for lets say top 500 mythic guilds.

Yeah, if one plays in such a guild, such a system might make sense. But I still have the feeling most peeps don't and individual skill has a lot bigger impact on players performance then the individual item (whereas in the top 500 guilds I would assume the skill level of players is much tighter).

There is definitely a sense behind certain loot rules (e.g. do not give Ashkandi to the Hunter first). But if something is BIS for both classes in the current content that is live, I do not really see a valid argument in saying "But Class X BIS is more BIS then your BIS, so your BIS doesnt count"

If it is BIS, it is BIS. I do not really see the need to distinguish between who gets the bigger power bosst. Especially if you are in a more casual environment.

[kranur]

I’ve always wondered about the math on this, because it seems to me that you’d benefit more from gearing a few to the teeth than spreading evenly.

Because dps grows exponentially, a 1% upgrade for a better geared player is worth more than a 1% upgrade on a worse geared one.

Practically I don’t think it makes much difference, but interesting to think about.

What you said makes no sense. There is no item that gives you a flat 1% increase regardless of gear. It mostly depends on what you're replacing and the stats in particular.
If a crap geared player gains 1% from an item, a very good geared player will get less than 1% from it. For example an item that gives 50 extra spell damage to player 1 and player 2. If player 1 has 2000 spell dmg already and player 2 has only 1000 it will be a much higher % increase in dps for player 2. While the actual dps increase will be roughly the same for both.

[Revamp Man]

For what it is worth I 100% agree with you, but I'm not running this guild and I honestly don't give a crap (I get all the loot I want because I turn up every week, you don't have to do much more than that usually) I'm just trying to help out the officers a bit

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We had a mage leave our guild because a lock got that back in TBC 15 years ago or however long it was, at the time we were literally jsut doing a /roll system Ahhh the bliss of ignorance xD

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Precisely my argument to them



Thank you, Skulkers Greaves came up in the discussion as a Leather item every hunter will want to take, and it is items like that that I wanna hear about, so I can present them as issues to resolve. I have absolutely no clue about any caster DPS competitions, or Healer competitions though

Also thanks to people for replies, I wasn't sure if I'd get a string of "We're not here to do your homework for you" responses :P

ok so here is my thing about this entire thread bud

you arent an officer
you arent the GM or the RL
you have an issue with what they are currently planning to do so you came to a forum to try and get more supporting arguments for what you want to get out of the system which seems to be you want them to do a points based system while they want it to be more priority based for the drops

you have 2 options

talk to them and accept their decision
or
find a new guild

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Healing Maces, MP5 better for Paladin/Shaman, Spirit Better for Priest/Druid

While spirit is better for priest/druid 10 mp5 is 10 mp5 doesn't matter if it's Paladin or Priest so MP5 it's as good for everyone.

[Revamp Man]

I’ve always wondered about the math on this, because it seems to me that you’d benefit more from gearing a few to the teeth than spreading evenly.

Because dps grows exponentially, a 1% upgrade for a better geared player is worth more than a 1% upgrade on a worse geared one.

Practically I don’t think it makes much difference, but interesting to think about.

group of 10 players
lets say in terms of gearing we use a 1-10 scale
7 players are 5
3 players are 9

now lets say those three players get wiped out by a mechanic
while you only lost 30% of your players you have lost about 40% of your output

[Mikah]

Unless you are going after World First, there is no reason to be so tight about loot distribution.

Keeping the raiders happy and motivated is far more important then the minimal % of gain you will get by min/maxing loot.

Having a fully geared guildmate /gquit or stop raiding because of these kind of decisions will have a far larger impact on your raid dps. Loosing weeks worth of gear or having a spot to fill by someone reliable is much more difficult.

[Cracked]

Was referring to upgrade over the item you currently have. Probably easier to use a number like 10%.

Here’s an example: you have two warlocks who both have the same chestpiece, but otherwise 1 warlock is significantly more geared than the other. A new chest piece drops that is a 10% upgrade over the old one. If you give it to the less geared warlock, his dps will go up by less than the more geared warlock. Not percentage wise, but in terms of absolute damage done.

This happens because of the multiplicative nature of stats - like, say the more geared lock has more haste, that means an increase in intellect will result in more dps for him because his additional haste makes the intellect more valuable.

Diminishing returns might blunt this somewhat, which is why I’m curious about what is actually most beneficial - I don’t even know if TBC stats have diminishing returns either.

Yes, add to that flat base values and / or set bonuses and it goes even more in that direction. In that sense, it would be entirely more beneficial to have 1 bis warlock and 1 garbage warlock than 2 average warlocks. Assuming the missing stamina doesn't get the garbage one killed, of course. That only works in an ideal scenario, if you put it into terms where you don't benefit from all stats, it changes the situation (like running around and only doing dps with Corruption or something).

However, you can see how socially unacceptable that would be. It's like parents making 1 child super rich and the other one super poor, due to the fact that rich people can acquire more wealth more quickly. The overall amount is greater! But that means fuckall for the poor fella.

[kranur]

Was referring to upgrade over the item you currently have. Probably easier to use a number like 10%.

Here’s an example: you have two warlocks who both have the same chestpiece, but otherwise 1 warlock is significantly more geared than the other. A new chest piece drops that is a 10% upgrade over the old one. If you give it to the less geared warlock, his dps will go up by less than the more geared warlock. Not percentage wise, but in terms of absolute damage done.

This happens because of the multiplicative nature of stats - like, say the more geared lock has more haste, that means an increase in intellect will result in more dps for him because his additional haste makes the intellect more valuable.

Diminishing returns might blunt this somewhat, which is why I’m curious about what is actually most beneficial - I don’t even know if TBC stats have diminishing returns either.

Don't think they have build in DR, but it will come in the form of stat weights. Stacking too much of a stat will make others more valuable.

In the example you gave that is also applicable. Say if the chest that dropped adds a lot of extra crit and the geared lock already has a ton of crit, while the other is lacking a lot, it may be more beneficial to hand it to the less geared one. This requires very specific setups though and it's basically impossible to generalize.

[phattsao]

This kind of sweaty shit is reminding me why I quit classic in the first place. Think it would be best to avoid TBC at this point.

[AeneasBK]

ok so here is my thing about this entire thread bud

Then you've misunderstood my priorities with this guild but that's okay I wasn't going into that as it isn't the point of the thread. I just want to hear about items that are going to be highly contested so that the system they're gonna use works as smoothly as it can. I knew when I made the thread it would be about 70% or more people saying "You just shouldn't use that loot system" and that's fine. I can update the OP with those items that do get mentioned.

[lonely zergling]

Make sure to feed your Elemental shaman the 2 piece t4 asap. Its by far the biggest upgrade of any helm/shoulder tokens which they also wear a long time. Your warlocks will agree.

[Super Kami Dende]

While spirit is better for priest/druid 10 mp5 is 10 mp5 doesn't matter if it's Paladin or Priest so MP5 it's as good for everyone.

Yes it is still good, but since Spirit is better for Priests/Druids there is no point in giving an MP5 Mace to a Priest when there is a Pally in the group only to have a Spirit mace drop and either waste it on the Pally or give the Priest 2 upgrades in a row. Spirit is wasted far more on a Paladin.