Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Slant]

1)WW2 UK vs Germany (disregard the other participants). Who has killed more of each other's civilians (hint: Dresden)? Who should be considered the bad guy then?

You're from Israel? For real? And you use Nazi Germany to legitimise Israel's action? How is your head not exploding from the irony? You can't look at UK vs. Germany in isolation, the UK didn't bomb Dresden or Hamburg to survive. Their goal was to end the war, liberate the dozen or so countries that Germany occupied and put an end to a war that, as was later found out, cost the European continent (especially Russia and Eastern European nations) millions and millions of people's lives. If you have to ask who the bad guy was, you clearly are living in the wrong fucking country.

Unless you're suggesting Hamas is hiding some gas chambers somewhere. Holy crap, this is one of the worst own goals I've seen on this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself. Greetings from, ironically, Germany.

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Also I forgot, I thought Wunderkid Jared Kushner like, solved this problem already?

I'd be surprised if he solved the problem of how to wipe his own ass already...

[PACOX]

The IDF let's people play out their fascists fantasies via proxy. A lot of people don't recognize what fascism looks like when it's not backed against a wall or in a swastika. Fascism looks strong, patriotic, in control, even heroic to some when it gets its way. "It maintains order, runs efficiently, and keeps the bad guys in check". But you have to step back and look at its methods, it's motives, who is being suppressed how and why. What's being shown in the open and what's being kept in the shadows.

Some people know Israel is playing out their fantasies while others have been duped by the facade

[Themius]

Does Israel send balloons across the border, with bombs attached to them?



The prerequisite... Israel is acting like terrorist...

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You need to call out Israel at some point, when making claims like this...

Why would they do something so primitive when they have expensive guided missiles provided for them by the united state's taxpayer?

[PC2]

You need to call out Israel at some point, when making claims like this...

That would be hypocritical because if I was in a similar position then I would demand that the US government obliterates the militant group that is shooting rockets at my family. In that situation my opponent would have to be hit again and again and again until they are completely demoralized and all of their hope of gaining anything through violence is utterly extinguished.

I hate religion though so certainly I disagree with the government pandering to orthodox groups and not doing more to stop Zionist extremists from expanding settlements in the West Bank. Atheism is needed more than ever, imo.

[Felya]

Why would they do something so primitive when they have expensive guided missiles provided for them by the united state's taxpayer?

Because they are trying to kill children...

[cubby]

I don't see how this conflict can be resolved in any way shape or form. People's family continue to be killed and that just breeds generational hatred. Rinse/repeat.

(and no - the answer is not "[this side] needs to stop their oppressive behavior and halt all attacks" - you're WAY out of touch with reality if that's your answer to the above)

[Endus]

That would be hypocritical because if I was in a similar position then I would demand that the US government obliterates the militant group that is shooting rockets at my family. In that situation my opponent would have to be hit again and again and again until they are completely demoralized and all of their hope of gaining anything through violence is utterly extinguished.

Nobody's got an issue with Israel hitting Hamas where it hurts, in the aftermath of rocket attacks.

What they care about is all the civilian deaths Israel directly causes in the process. Generally far in excess of how many members of Hamas they actually kill.

In fact, your position, ironically, goes both ways. Imagine you're a Palestinian. Israelis just killed a dozen of your family in shelling aimed, they claim, at Hamas. By your own admission, you would want to target Israel and "hit them again and again until they are completely demoralized and all of their hope of gaining anything through violence is utterly extinguished".

Congrats; that's Hamas' position. You're making the same arguments they are. Literally the same arguments, and for the same reasons.

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I don't see how this conflict can be resolved in any way shape or form. People's family continue to be killed and that just breeds generational hatred. Rinse/repeat.

(and no - the answer is not "[this side] needs to stop their oppressive behavior and halt all attacks" - you're WAY out of touch with reality if that's your answer to the above)

That's why I said way back at the start that I didn't see a solution that wasn't externally enforced (albeit, with consent by leadership on both sides). I'd ideologically prefer a non-theocratic one-state solution where both Israeli Jews and Palestinians get along. In practice, a two-state solution with an external enforcer may be the best we can achieve. Said enforcer needs to be seen as neutral and indifferent to the antagonisms, and not on either side, so the USA is out. Most of the Western powers, honestly. Likely would have to be a UN multinational coalition with a special designation, I don't think there's an actual precedent. Right now, every cease-fire, someone breaches the peace and it's off to the races again. An external independent enforcer could, in theory, prevent that, by forestalling the reactive use of force.

[cubby]

That's why I said way back at the start that I didn't see a solution that wasn't externally enforced (albeit, with consent by leadership on both sides). I'd ideologically prefer a non-theocratic one-state solution where both Israeli Jews and Palestinians get along. In practice, a two-state solution with an external enforcer may be the best we can achieve. Said enforcer needs to be seen as neutral and indifferent to the antagonisms, and not on either side, so the USA is out. Most of the Western powers, honestly. Likely would have to be a UN multinational coalition with a special designation, I don't think there's an actual precedent. Right now, every cease-fire, someone breaches the peace and it's off to the races again. An external independent enforcer could, in theory, prevent that, by forestalling the reactive use of force.

Clancy wrote a book that included Switzerland enforcement of a U.N. two-state solution. Setting aside the fiction (and the ridiculously detailed description of a nuclear detonation) it seemed like as good a solution as any.

[Endus]

Clancy wrote a book that included Switzerland enforcement of a U.N. two-state solution. Setting aside the fiction (and the ridiculously detailed description of a nuclear detonation) it seemed like as good a solution as any.

Frankly, Switzerland's vaunted "neutrality" just translates to "totally okay with Nazis" far too easily. It's the wrong "kind" of neutrality.

[jonnysensible]

Frankly, Switzerland's vaunted "neutrality" just translates to "totally okay with Nazis" far too easily. It's the wrong "kind" of neutrality.

cmon they only helped them move gold! (and turned my grandad away when he fled holland, he only ended up in a concentration camp!) rat bastards.

Israel vs Palestine isnt some eternal conflict or law of nature.

Until someone can damage Hamas and Bibi, who are parasites on each other it will continue. It suits Bibi given his legal troubles and it suits Hamas given most of the top dogs live in Doha so dont have to do any of the hard dying or hard living.

It will never get better under Bibi thats for sure.

[Themius]

Because they are trying to kill children...

"Trying" where's the proof of that? Indiscriminate bombing isn't "targeting" children. Meanwhile... IDF snipers...

The Protest Dispersed. Then an Israeli Sniper Shot a 9-year-old Palestinian Boy in the Head
From 100 meters away, an IDF soldier shot a boy in the head in the West Bank village of Kafr Qaddum. The bullet exploded into dozens of fragments in the child's brain and he's now in an induced coma

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...head-1.7542674

[tehdang]

Fatah were shitheads too, but the loss of Gaza and the nice feeling of being in power seems to have forced them to take more moderate stance. If we go by "What if", then current PA leadership being in charge of Gaza might mean less hot relationship with Israel, which in turn could potentially allow Israel's Arab parties some play at creating coalition goverment. Problem is, right now Fatah ratings are not exactly great and Hamas are on the heels, which would really suck for Mahmud Abbas and any and all chance for peace process (worst case - West Bank starts turning into another Gaza). Election is again postponed but that cannot last forever. The initial protests/riots were good for him, but not sure what will happen in the long term.

To be perfectly honest, the choice between Hamas and Fatah makes me think the delays in elections can go on forever. Abbas gets a boost from the sane international observers every time Hamas does an Iranian-fueled tantrum.

And as for West Bank turning into another Gaza, we all remember episode 1: Hamas-Fatah 2007. Invade residences, seize opposition party headquarters, kill officers. Five days later there wasn't an opposition party. Abbas was in power watching his loyalists die. I reckon he's learned from the experience about holding elections he stands a good chance of losing ...

More likely, Hamas gets a new shipment of Iranian arms in the next months or year, jumps the shark more this time around, and Israel pulls up the 2008 playbook on stopping rocket attacks from Gaza. I judge this based on Hamas's international propaganda success this time around, the likelihood that they'll run out of rockets/choose to wait for more, and the long memory of sirens going off across Israel for several nights influencing the next response. Thoughts?

[cubby]

Frankly, Switzerland's vaunted "neutrality" just translates to "totally okay with Nazis" far too easily. It's the wrong "kind" of neutrality.

Ha, that's true. I hate to say it, but what about Canada? Or Australia? With Europe, Asia, Africa out and South America not capable of it, those might be our only choices.

[PACOX]

I don't see how this conflict can be resolved in any way shape or form. People's family continue to be killed and that just breeds generational hatred. Rinse/repeat.

(and no - the answer is not "[this side] needs to stop their oppressive behavior and halt all attacks" - you're WAY out of touch with reality if that's your answer to the above)

Maybe there's a fast solution, probably not. But everyone can start by not writing Israel a blank check to act a fool. Older people can hold on to their views but that doesn't mean those views have to maintained by younger generations. Grandpa may be afraid to call out bad practices because he may be an anti-semite. I'm not.

Israel is enabled by the money it receives from the West and is validated when people ignore their violations. Israel cuts its bullshit just like any other country when the money is cut off and its actually called out on the world stage by countries with clout. Israel thinks twice when it knows NATO countries will default to its aid if it pisses off the wrong people. It deflects social criticism when it get away with playing the AS card if charged with humanitarian violations. When Israel is stopped being viewed as the defacto victim.

I don't want to invoke the R word too much but I think younger practioners of the Abrahamic religions will shift their mind to mindset about Israel too. You're not going to get rid of your fundamentalists and people will still care about the respective sacred sites, but not if it means 'losing' ones religion for symbols. As long as there's no gross desecration (disrespect) involved, I think younger generations will be 'over' squabbles over 'who rightfully owns Jerusalem'. The 3 main branches get along or just ignore each other in most of the world, rational minds aren't just going to start turning on each other because of Jerusalem.

[Mihalik]

I'm just here to repeat.

THERE ARE NO TWO SIDES TO THIS.

Israel runs a fucking apartheid state actively engaged in ethnic cleansing. Israel runs the world's largest open air prison filled by 2 million people, men, women, children, elderly, civilians who happen to live in some of the most miserable conditions imaginable.

And if the victims of these crimes against humanity dare use violence to oppose the conditions in which they exist they are labeled terrorists.

I mean for fuck sake, a few years ago the Israeli state got caught red handed forcibly sterilizing Ethiopian Jews migrating to Israel.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elisekn...birth-control/

Take a wild fucking guess why the specifically only targeted Ethiopian Jews?

Look, the Jewish people deserve and need a state of their own, but Israel in its current state is a fucking abomination. It's a perpetrator of half the fucking atrocities the Jewish people have been subjected to in the past.

The fact that this shitshow is allowed to continue is a global moral failure.

We are way past the point where Israel should be treated as a global pariah state, sanctioned and embargoed until it accepts a return to the 1947 UN partition borders and accepts a deployment of UN peacekeepers to uphold those borders and to defend the rights of Muslim, Arab, Christian, Palestinian etc minorities.

There should also be multi lateral pressure to force it to surrender its nuclear weapons and there ought to be an arms embargo put in place until the peace process finalizes. It should also pay reparations for all the destroyed and stolen property, economic destruction and decades of economic exploitation.

Until then, I can't fucking conjure up any sympathy for a genocidal apartheid state.

[cubby]

I'm just here to repeat.

THERE ARE NO TWO SIDES TO THIS.

Israel runs a fucking apartheid state actively engaged in ethnic cleansing. Israel runs the world's largest open air prison filled by 2 million people, men, women, children, elderly, civilians who happen to live in some of the most miserable conditions imaginable.

And if the victims of these crimes against humanity dare use violence to oppose the conditions in which they exist they are labeled terrorists.

I mean for fuck sake, a few years ago the Israeli state got caught red handed forcibly sterilizing Ethiopian Jews migrating to Israel.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elisekn...birth-control/

Take a wild fucking guess why the specifically only targeted Ethiopian Jews?

Look, the Jewish people deserve and need a state of their own, but Israel in its current state is a fucking abomination. It's a perpetrator of half the fucking atrocities the Jewish people have been subjected to in the past.

The fact that this shitshow is allowed to continue is a global moral failure.

We are way past the point where Israel should be treated as a global pariah state, sanctioned and embargoed until it accepts a return to the 1947 UN partition borders and accepts a deployment of UN peacekeepers to uphold those borders and to defend the rights of Muslim, Arab, Christian, Palestinian etc minorities.

There should also be multi lateral pressure to force it to surrender its nuclear weapons and there ought to be an arms embargo put in place until the peace process finalizes. It should also pay reparations for all the destroyed and stolen property, economic destruction and decades of economic exploitation.

Until then, I can't fucking conjure up any sympathy for a genocidal apartheid state.

So contraception is genocide? From your own article:

African women immigrating to Israel were subjected to mandatory contraceptive injections, effectively amounting to forced (if temporary) sterilization

What else are you lying about?

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Maybe there's a fast solution, probably not. But everyone can start by not writing Israel a blank check to act a fool. Older people can hold on to their views but that doesn't mean those views have to maintained by younger generations. Grandpa may be afraid to call out bad practices because he may be an anti-semite. I'm not.

Israel is enabled by the money it receives from the West and is validated when people ignore their violations. Israel cuts its bullshit just like any other country when the money is cut off and its actually called out on the world stage by countries with clout. Israel thinks twice when it knows NATO countries will default to its aid if it pisses off the wrong people. It deflects social criticism when it get away with playing the AS card if charged with humanitarian violations. When Israel is stopped being viewed as the defacto victim.

I don't want to invoke the R word too much but I think younger practioners of the Abrahamic religions will shift their mind to mindset about Israel too. You're not going to get rid of your fundamentalists and people will still care about the respective sacred sites, but not if it means 'losing' ones religion for symbols. As long as there's no gross desecration (disrespect) involved, I think younger generations will be 'over' squabbles over 'who rightfully owns Jerusalem'. The 3 main branches get along or just ignore each other in most of the world, rational minds aren't just going to start turning on each other because of Jerusalem.

Any suggestions for what Palestinians can do?

[Deus Mortis]

I do not see this getting better anytime soon, even with a new administration in the white house.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...es-2021-05-17/

President Joe Biden's administration approved the potential sale of $735 million in precision-guided weapons to Israel, and congressional sources said on Monday that U.S. lawmakers were not expected to object to the deal despite violence between Israel and Palestinian militants.

Three congressional aides said Congress was officially notified of the intended commercial sale on May 5, as part of the regular review process before major foreign weapons sales agreements can go ahead.

The sale was first reported by the Washington Post.

Congress was informed of the planned sale in April, as part of the normal informal review process before of the formal notification on May 5. Under U.S. law, the formal notification opens up a 15-day window for Congress to object to the sale, which is not expected despite the ongoing violence.

The sale of Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or JDAMs, made by Boeing Co (BA.N), was considered routine at the time, before the start last week of the fiercest hostilities in the region in years.

There were no objections at the time by the Democratic and Republican leaders of the congressional foreign affairs committees that review such sales, aides said.

[Endus]

So contraception is genocide? From your own article:

What else are you lying about?

Mandatory contraception? For members of a particular group?

Yes. Literal definition of genocide.

Here's the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...20Genocide.pdf

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Bold added for emphasis. There's a reason I said "literal definition". Because it's one of the five practices that fall under the label, according to international law.

[cubby]

Mandatory contraception? For members of a particular group?

Yes. Literal definition of genocide.

Here's the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...20Genocide.pdf

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Bold added for emphasis. There's a reason I said "literal definition". Because it's one of the five practices that fall under the label, according to international law.

You bolded the wrong part. I went ahead and put the emphasis where it should have been.
Edit: I'm not trying to change your post intentions, just to be clear. In fact, I'm going to remove my bolding and italicize it instead.

There is no intent to destroy the group. I'm not arguing that Israel is on the side of angels here, but claiming that the Israelites are attempting genocide is one of the most historically out of touch statements I've ever seen.

You're going to argue that the temporary use of contraception on an unwilling group meets the (d) definition, but it does not. Because Israel is doing it to people immigrating to their country, right? So they are, one could argue, imposing a requirement of entry. Is that genocide? Not at all. Unless you're about to try and argue that Israel was committing genocide on Jewish people.

Moreover, this contraception is temporary - meaning no intention of preventing births on a permanent basis. If the contraception was permanent, then you'd have some room to maneuver. But it's not, so you don't.

Finally, the accusation of lying leveled against the poster was dead on - because he used the phrase "force sterilization" - which was not happening, at all. Hence, he was lying.

[Themius]

You bolded the wrong part. I went ahead and put the emphasis where it should have been.
Edit: I'm not trying to change your post intentions, just to be clear. In fact, I'm going to remove my bolding and italicize it instead.

There is no intent to destroy the group. I'm not arguing that Israel is on the side of angels here, but claiming that the Israelites are attempting genocide is one of the most historically out of touch statements I've ever seen.

You're going to argue that the temporary use of contraception on an unwilling group meets the (d) definition, but it does not. Because Israel is doing it to people immigrating to their country, right? So they are, one could argue, imposing a requirement of entry. Is that genocide? Not at all. Unless you're about to try and argue that Israel was committing genocide on Jewish people.

Moreover, this contraception is temporary - meaning no intention of preventing births on a permanent basis. If the contraception was permanent, then you'd have some room to maneuver. But it's not, so you don't.

Finally, the accusation of lying leveled against the poster was dead on - because he used the phrase "force sterilization" - which was not happening, at all. Hence, he was lying.

A drop in birth rates by 20% among the group after forced measured to reduce their population

"We only wanted to do a little genocide for a time to have lasting population decreases among those dirty jews with too much african admixture." Doesn't bode well.. It is genocide... it was genocide on black jews by jews with significant white European admixture..

This is why I said earlier Israel isn't just a Jewish apartheid state it is a white Jewish apartheid state.