Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[cubby]

Here's the thing; we all agree that Hamas are terrible for their attacks. And the reason we say they're terrible is that they're killing innocent people.
You're just angry I'm turning that same standard around and holding Israel to it as well, rather than giving them a free pass because reasons.

Then why are your posts (and most of the others at least in this thread) almost entirely one-sided? You dig and dig against Israel's actions without the same reasonable "coverage" of Palestinians/Hamas' similar actions. You failing to mention, in a reasonable amount of "coverage/commentary, the horrors that the Palestinian/Hamas side commits effectively gives them that free pass you're criticizing above.

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No sorry, you're wrong. There's literally zero emotions at play. The only ones being emotional and unreasonable are the people trying desperately (and to be honestly, ridiculously failing) at defending the behaviour of a country that, if it wasn't Israel they'd be the first to condemn.
I know it sounds absurd to you, but simply put, you're wrong about this bro. There's a reason why the whole planet is complaining about Israel's behaviour.

So where are your comments on Hamas' actions? Their suicide bombings? Their continual rocket attacks? Their desire as a people to "push Israel into the sea"?

You claim zero emotions, but all of your commentary speaks to your entirely subjective (i.e. emotional) view of the topic.

[Themius]

Then why are your posts (and most of the others at least in this thread) almost entirely one-sided? You dig and dig against Israel's actions without the same reasonable "coverage" of Palestinians/Hamas' similar actions. You failing to mention, in a reasonable amount of "coverage/commentary, the horrors that the Palestinian/Hamas side commits effectively gives them that free pass you're criticizing above.

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So where are you comments on Hamas' actions? Their suicide bombings? Their continual rocket attacks? Their desire as a people to "push Israel into the sea"?

You claim zero emotions, but all of your commentary speaks to your entirely subjective (i.e. emotional) view of the subject.

Because "one side" has a gross advantage...

[Cringefest]

Then why are your posts (and most of the others at least in this thread) almost entirely one-sided? You dig and dig against Israel's actions without the same reasonable "coverage" of Palestinians/Hamas' similar actions. You failing to mention, in a reasonable amount of "coverage/commentary, the horrors that the Palestinian/Hamas side commits effectively gives them that free pass you're criticizing above.

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So where are you comments on Hamas' actions? Their suicide bombings? Their continual rocket attacks? Their desire as a people to "push Israel into the sea"?

You claim zero emotions, but all of your commentary speaks to your entirely subjective (i.e. emotional) view of the subject.

I'm not sure who you are addressing and how you got to the conclusion that I don't blame Hamas. I am perfectly able to criticise Israel when they act as they do without having an internal crisis like you seem to have. Stop debating things if you can't keep a cool head.

[Zaktar]

Then why are your posts (and most of the others at least in this thread) almost entirely one-sided? You dig and dig against Israel's actions without the same reasonable "coverage" of Palestinians/Hamas' similar actions. You failing to mention, in a reasonable amount of "coverage/commentary, the horrors that the Palestinian/Hamas side commits effectively gives them that free pass you're criticizing above.

Not really though, people are aggressively defending Israel's actions so that is what there is to argue against? Most people are on the same page that what Hamas is doing is wrong. Less argument = less discussion.

[Endus]

Then why are your posts (and most of the others at least in this thread) almost entirely one-sided? You dig and dig against Israel's actions without the same reasonable "coverage" of Palestinians/Hamas' similar actions. You failing to mention, in a reasonable amount of "coverage/commentary, the horrors that the Palestinian/Hamas side commits effectively gives them that free pass you're criticizing above.

Really?

If anyone were really supporting Hamas' rocket attacks as a justified response, I'd crap on that too, for the same reasons. It's just that no one is.

I literally opened this thread saying that Hamas was in the wrong and repeated that a short while ago to try and forestall exactly this kind of horseshit.

I've been clear all along that the rocket attacks by Hamas are unjustifiable.

And right now in particular, Israel is killing more children than Hamas. And while I condemn both, basically no one here is defending Hamas or their rocket attacks. People are defending the Israeli kill counts as justified, however. Hence the weight of my responses aimed towards those individuals.

(Caveat on this next one; I am condemning someone else's argument, and this was intended to be read as sarcastic condemnation, tonally; see the "or have you been talking out your ass" bit at the end; my point here was that the rocket attacks are awful and indefensible);

Then I'm sure you'll agree that the arguments against the Hamas rocket attacks are overblown, too, right? That those rocket attacks are just fine, because they're "just targeting buildings" as well, not people? And attacking civilian buildings is totally fine, in your perspective.


Right?


Or have you been talking out your entire ass the whole time?

Sure, Hamas engages in terrorist attacks, and that's bad.

I have taken pains to be clear I am not saying either side is "the bad guy". Both Hamas and Israel act atrociously. I've been saying that the whole time.

Where's the "free pass"? Where am I failing to mention that Hamas' actions are unconscionable? This is just in this thread, and it isn't even all the references I could pull, just the clearest ones that didn't require context from other posts to make the condemnation clear.

As for why it may feel like there's more focus on Israel in my posts, see the first entry I listed. No one's making the "Hamas killing Israeli civilians and children is actually just fine because . . . " argument. If they did, I'd freely rip them a new one too, but I haven't seen anyone do so. People have made that argument the other way around, however. Hence my responses to them.

[downnola]

This. Entirely. Every time this subject comes up the above happens.

I mean, is Hamas still using suicide bombers to specifically target civilians?

No, not like they did in the early 2000's.

From what I can tell, every time this subject is brought up people jump through absurd hoops to justify the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians. They reference the Six-Day war, repeat IDF propaganda about Hezbollah and Hamas using civilians as human shields, or use whataboutism and bring up jihadist terror attacks that are incredibly rare over the last decade. Otherwise sharp people drop any pretense of principle or humanism and justify crimes against humanity because of who's dropping the bombs. Meanwhile, if it were Russia dropping bombs on civilians in Syria they'd puff their chest up and champion human rights. On the one hand they bitch and moan for four years straight about the danger of a Donald Trump, and on the other bend over backwards justifying the bombing of extremely dense civilian areas in defense of a bloodthirsty nationalist bigot.

But fear not, Israel has the full support of the United States that will block any attempt to hold Israel accountable for flagrant and unjustifiable violence against civilians. You can always count on the loud support of the American right and middle to uncritically defend every action of the IDF no matter how many children find themselves on the business end of a collapsing building.

[Cringefest]

No, not like they did in the early 2000's.

From what I can tell, every time this subject is brought up people jump through absurd hoops to justify the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians. They reference the Six-Day war, repeat IDF propaganda about Hezbollah and Hamas using civilians as human shields, or use whataboutism and bring up jihadist terror attacks that are incredibly rare over the last decade. Otherwise sharp people drop any pretense of principle or humanism and justify crimes against humanity because of who's dropping the bombs. Meanwhile, if it were Russia dropping bombs on civilians in Syria they'd puff their chest up and champion human rights. On the one hand they bitch and moan for four years straight about the danger of a Donald Trump, and on the other bend over backwards justifying the bombing of extremely dense civilian areas in defense of a bloodthirsty nationalist bigot.

But fear not, Israel has the full support of the United States that will block any attempt to hold Israel accountable for flagrant and unjustifiable violence against civilians. You can always count on the loud support of the American right and middle to uncritically defend every action of the IDF no matter how many children end up on the business end of a collapsing building.

On one side condemning China for alleged abuses in Muslim communities, on the other justifiying Israel for war crimes against Muslim communities.

[Themius]

On one side condemning China for alleged abuses in Muslim communities, on the other justifiying Israel for war crimes against Muslim communities.

Oh come now, you don' have to drag Israel into to criticise America.

On one side condemning China for abuses against Muslims, on the other... having multiple CIA backed death squad militias bombing schools in Afghanistan killing children 9-17.

[cubby]

Really?





(Caveat on this next one; I am condemning someone else's argument, and this was intended to be read as sarcastic condemnation, tonally; see the "or have you been talking out your ass" bit at the end; my point here was that the rocket attacks are awful and indefensible);




Where's the "free pass"? Where am I failing to mention that Hamas' actions are unconscionable? This is just in this thread, and it isn't even all the references I could pull, just the clearest ones that didn't require context from other posts to make the condemnation clear.

As for why it may feel like there's more focus on Israel in my posts, see the first entry I listed. No one's making the "Hamas killing Israeli civilians and children is actually just fine because . . . " argument. If they did, I'd freely rip them a new one too, but I haven't seen anyone do so. People have made that argument the other way around, however. Hence my responses to them.

Alright - I stand corrected. My apologies.

Also - and this is an additional good point from you, most people aren't trying to defend Hamas/Palestinian actions, so there isn't a lot of necessary condemnation from that perspective.

I appreciate all the links you provided as well. Thank you.

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Not really though, people are aggressively defending Israel's actions so that is what there is to argue against? Most people are on the same page that what Hamas is doing is wrong. Less argument = less discussion.

Very good point - something I hadn't considered. Thanks for mentioning it.

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I'm not sure who you are addressing and how you got to the conclusion that I don't blame Hamas. I am perfectly able to criticise Israel when they act as they do without having an internal crisis like you seem to have. Stop debating things if you can't keep a cool head.

Please stop projecting your emotional issues in this conversation.

[Cringefest]

Alright - I stand corrected. My apologies.

Also - and this is an additional good point from you, most people aren't trying to defend Hamas/Palestinian actions, so there isn't a lot of necessary condemnation from that perspective.

I appreciate all the links you provided as well. Thank you.

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Very good point - something I hadn't considered. Thanks for mentioning it.

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Please stop projecting your emotional issues in this conversation.

"no u"

Nice comeback dude. Good luck. I'm here if you want to discuss.

[cubby]

"no u"

Nice comeback dude. Good luck. I'm here if you want to discuss.

I mean, you're the one who made the ridiculous "you mad bro" statement. I was just pointing out your juvenile behavior. Feel free to come back to the discussion when you feel more equipped to deal with the content. We'll be here.

[Cringefest]

I mean, you're the one who made the ridiculous "you mad bro" statement. I was just pointing out your juvenile behavior. Feel free to come back to the discussion when you feel more equipped to deal with the content. We'll be here.

Ok *shrug*

[Low Hanging Fruit]

At this point we probably shouldn't rob them of thier destinies and just let them fight it out to the death and recognize whatever is left over in the glasses over desert as the winner.

[cubby]

For me, seeing this conflict rise and fall over literal decades, with peace accords coming and going, the only real solution is a third-party military enforced two-state solution. It's entirely clear that the Israelis and Palestinians will never find a solution - the conflict is ingrained on a multi-generational level. Combined with other countries trying to affect and inflict the conflict, a solution won't come without a global effort to separate the two conflicting peoples.

[Draco-Onis]

Now it is my weapons and my nukes? Classic example of kindergarden "argument" - If you defend something, then you are it. I guess the thousands of tanks and hundreds of planes delivered to Arab states for basically free from USSR suddenly do not count as supporting those countries, just the things that Israel received (bought). Or that Israel had issues buying equipment after independence, because almost no one wanted to sell anything? Nah, just roflmao, nothing else is needed. 1967 war did not happen and was not decisively won by Israel, surely it was all USA.

Yeah, roflmao indeed.

What does your rant have to do with the facts? you are getting a 4 billion dollar welfare check every year on top of weapons and diaspora money flowing in. You can't win fights with your moxie, Israel has always been a welfare country without others keeping that country afloat it would not be what it is today.

[Slant]

That's hard to say it's not like the alternative is pro Palestinian but the fact that Bibi keeps winning puts it into question. The nationalist hard right seems to have strong support as well.

The question is, what alternatives are there to the current Government?

[Draco-Onis]

The question is, what alternatives are there to the current Government?

That's kind of my point when given a choice between Bibi and Gantz they went with Bibi that shows maybe the majority aren't sick of it otherwise he would have gotten wiped out. Bibi wasn't subtle when he was running on what he was about even using Arab Israelis to stir up the vote, I think the same thing as US election considering the amount of people who did vote for Trump.

[szechuan]

Genocidal Sociopath with an Agenda for a Nationalist Ethno-State Reposts a PragerU video.

[Felya]

Never said they (the children) needed to die, only that people die in wars regardless of any and all intentions, and that no, Israel is not targeting them or anything else. I mostly see just people calling out Israel. The fact that their opponents are barely different from ISIS does not seem to concern majority at all.

Just to add to this... before hamas, Fatah were able to negotiate with Israel and were approaching a two state solution. With Egypt taking over the border and Israel leaving Gaza. That’s the reason there were no Israeli troops in Gaza... then hamas went on to massacre Palestinians, including public executions of Fatah and their family... including 2 sons of a Fatah leader...

If Fatah remained in power, there would likely have been a two state solution by now... and I don’t think Bibi would have had as much success running in 2009... because he wouldn’t have hamas as a scapegoat... Fatah were having success negotiating, Bibi election would have been counter to that success... but, he has weaponized hamas for his hold on power...

[PC2]

Giving Palestine statehood doesn't mean anything except they would get freedom to control their borders which they would immediately use to import weapons and build a military. It wouldn't even last a week because there would be a flood of weapons and they would start launching 20x more rockets and then Israel would have to hit them 20x harder. It would be a death sentence to the Israeli political party that allowed it to happen.