WoW Desperately Needs Some Kind of a Roundtable Between Devs and Players

[Yriel]

Because that nolifer gamer only knows about playing games, not making them. Playing games and making games are not the same thing.

Whats the difference if i may ask? Not talking about technical stuff, sure, the coding is left for the Blizz guys but the design? I guess those nolifers know a lot about encounter design and other players know a lot about quest design, class design, what is fun and what isn't, what works and what doesn't and so on.
I really doubt that a Blizz designer knows more about encounters than the hardcore raiders for example. I mean, it's not like those people are just playing the game, they analyze the shit out of everything.
And i bet that even casual players can tell the blizz guys a lot about what works and what doesn't in their creations. I mean, look at all the failed features Blizz added over time and the countless ways of improving them suggested by the community.
Sorry if i'm not in awe about the Blizz Designers.

Because Johnny, let's say, the low skilled player who doesn't know how to interrupt, doesn't know what talents to use, and maybe picked his covenant based on aesthetics and performs 20% less dps than he should has to be able to complete his torghast run, just like min-maxing world first raider Timmy, and everyone in between. Because legendaries are for everyone in shadowlands, therefore everyone must be able to get their weekly soul ash. Scaling wouldn't solve anything, because if Johnny performs at 40% of what his gear provides him, he will fail (depending on what powers he gets of course, that's why the devs can't really touch powers either.) Failing torghast is NOT an option for the devs to allow when it comes to soul ash acquisition.

But it would be the same difficulty for both, thats what important. Today you have the same situation, just with the difference that world-first Timmy, aside from his skill advantage, has a ton of much better gear, making Torghast much easier for him than for low-skill Johnny.
It's kinds stupid that the low skilled players get a much harder difficulty than the high skilled ones.

[Kalisandra]

I dont like what Torghast is I guess. Its not meant to be a challenge, but more like spammative(not sure if its a word lol) fun and not like challenge modes.

A timer adds another level of difficulty. It just doesnt fit into what Torghast is now(but it did fit their design when they first made it).

As me vs devs in a roundtable: Fuck you devs for making Torghast boring after listening to other players feedback

Heh.

My issue with timers in Torghast is that we've already got a whole system of timed content for people who want to have to go all-out, play perfectly with no time to stop and consider a new plan, etc. It's not the only way to challenge people, and Torghast should be able to do it in other ways. As for the concern that people would just sit out their CD timers before 'each' pull - big deal. If there's no major reward for doing the thing, who cares of some people take hours to do a level that other, better geared and/or more skilled players do in 30 minutes?

[Mysterymask]

No, WoW doesnt need a roundtable between Devs and Players. Players need to stop paying the monthly subs, stop playing the damn game, and get those subs number as lower as possible, so the devs learn that they are doing poorly. But players are addicted to WoW and cant stop playing, they even pay 2 or more accounts. Players are unable to find another game out there to play. And they keep giving Blizzard money.

When are the players going to learn?

This entire paragraph can be summerized as "Why do the masses not have my opinion!"

[Arganis]

WoW’s biggest problem is they don’t think long term. Over the years they’ve made all this short term content and had to replace it with more short term content, over and over. That’s how you get a gigantic world where only about 10% of it is being actively engaged and the other 90% is a giant nostalgia graveyard, only fit for mog and achievement hunting and the occasional quest.

It’s just stupid design. Real life is like a game. It never gets content droughts because all the contents remains relevant until you die. With Blizzard they have that one sandbox where you get to play for about 2-3 years, then the next and the next and everything just gets tweaked over and over to make everything old new again. Relying almost entirely on dry addiction mechanisms to keep going.

[deviantcultist]

As much as the devs have made mistakes or disappointed the players, it still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the community should be in no position to reach that level of entitlement.

[Osmeric]

When are the players going to learn?

Well, my sub ran out Feb. 22, so it was some time before that.

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no position to reach that level of entitlement.

Entitlement arguments are dumb. There is almost no deserved entitlement for anyone, player or developer. What there is is failure and consequences of that failure. Players are not entitled to get anything, but devs who fail to provide players enough to keep them playing will become ex-devs.

[Yuli]

Lol. A couple of years ago maybe there was some "nEgAtIvItY" on mmochamp, but nowadays basically only the white knights are present here - wonder why. Speaks volumes about the state of the game.

Yeah, bc 10 people telling me that everyone hates the game in quote posts show that only white knights are here, lol.

[deviantcultist]

Well, my sub ran out Feb. 22, so it was some time before that.

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Entitlement arguments are dumb. There is almost no deserved entitlement for anyone, player or developer. What there is is failure and consequences of that failure. Players are not entitled to get anything, but devs who fail to provide players enough to keep them playing will become ex-devs.

Absolutely. That's why there has to be constructive feedback and that kind of feedback needs to be put in proper thought by the devs. Sometimes it's hard to isolate the good kind of feedback, but feedback is ignored altogether, devs will become ex-devs indeed.

[TidalConflux]

The issue with the roundtable is that players and questions would be outright vetted to be present -- and none of the forums will be happy unless Blizzard is forced to answer "Why is Ion fired?" or "Why are you guys horrible at your jobs?"

[Soon-TM]

Oh so now your moving the goal posts to 9.1?

That was the whole point of my first post, but it somehow flew well over your head. It's OK though, not that I was expecting a lot more from you after your first reply

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The issue with the roundtable is that players and questions would be outright vetted to be present -- and none of the forums will be happy unless Blizzard is forced to answer "Why is Ion fired?" or "Why are you guys horrible at your jobs?"

You can always filter the dumb%&$@ stuff without allowing the interviewee(s) to play softball. But I guess that it's harder than just dodging the important questions or outright not allowing them in the first place.

[dcc626]

People are losing more and more faith in the WoW development team and SL.

I don't mean bringing in toxic people like Asmongold or Bellular but actually get in a myriad of different types of player type community leaders and host a long roundtable type discussion between them and key developers. This is just my opinion but I'd say intentionally avoid the super popular streamers and Youtubers. Bring in people who have gold making and crafting channels, and guys who are into the lore, and guys who just like leveling and managing alts, not simply the elite raiders and M+ers. Make it a 4-hour back and forth or something, I don't care. It doesn't even have to be public, though that'd be nice, just an acknowledgement that it happened from both sides.

Ion scheduled an interview with Preach a couple weeks ago and the perception was that he came away feeling incredibly out-of-touch with the community. People coming away with an even more negative view of the game after an interview is a rarity. I don't mind Ion he's a good dude but there needs to be a connection established again and faith and good will restored for 10.0.

No one wants to humor the idea that this game is in a managed decline state, it is simply in a rut right now and that can be fixed. But people like JAB need to tempor Kotick and let Blizzard do its thang like it used to, and engage with the players. I really want to be sold on the idea of this game moving forward again and feel genuine excitement like I did back in Legion. Legion, for all of its flaws, felt like it had a true vision and passion to it.

What do you think? Do you agree? Do we need some hope instilled into us and some initiative taken by the WoW team?

Let's Make Azeroth Great Again.

heres the thing. they have listened and will continue to listen to feedback. what you and others dont seem to realize is that listening and agreeing are 2 different things.

the playerbase will not dictate how the game is developed. no game does that. none. they have and will agree with some of the feedback and have made changes. but people dont like to admit that. they just know what they havent listened to.

if you think fundamental parts of the current game are going to change before 10.0, you are sorely mistaken. and by that i mean covenants, legendaries, torghast, the maw, world quests. most people would like them gone. and that isnt going to happen.

[panda040]

Bellular and asmond are not toxic, they are dedicated to the game and realize what makes for good game play.

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Saying that you don't like a game? Fine.

Saying that you, with zero game design experience, know what the fixes should be? Sorry, that ain't gonna fly.


I liken it to this. If a chef makes something and you don't like it, fine. No one can tell you you have to like it. But if you then start to say "well obviously this is how you cook it better!" with zero cooking experience, why in the hell would anybody listen to you?

The only overarching systems we have to thank "player feedback" for are shit like no flying. Which is an excellent example of why player feedback should be taken with a grain of salt.

I like no flying, you actually have to explore the world instead of it being a back drop where you fly over it all in 30 seconds.

[SirBeef]

People are losing more and more faith in the WoW development team and SL.

I don't mean bringing in toxic people like Asmongold or Bellular but actually get in a myriad of different types of player type community leaders and host a long roundtable type discussion between them and key developers. This is just my opinion but I'd say intentionally avoid the super popular streamers and Youtubers. Bring in people who have gold making and crafting channels, and guys who are into the lore, and guys who just like leveling and managing alts, not simply the elite raiders and M+ers. Make it a 4-hour back and forth or something, I don't care. It doesn't even have to be public, though that'd be nice, just an acknowledgement that it happened from both sides.

Ion scheduled an interview with Preach a couple weeks ago and the perception was that he came away feeling incredibly out-of-touch with the community. People coming away with an even more negative view of the game after an interview is a rarity. I don't mind Ion he's a good dude but there needs to be a connection established again and faith and good will restored for 10.0.

No one wants to humor the idea that this game is in a managed decline state, it is simply in a rut right now and that can be fixed. But people like JAB need to tempor Kotick and let Blizzard do its thang like it used to, and engage with the players. I really want to be sold on the idea of this game moving forward again and feel genuine excitement like I did back in Legion. Legion, for all of its flaws, felt like it had a true vision and passion to it.

What do you think? Do you agree? Do we need some hope instilled into us and some initiative taken by the WoW team?

Let's Make Azeroth Great Again.

1, and most importantly, you and whatever streamer you are regurgitating on these forums like you have verbal diarrhea, the last few days, don't speak for any one but yourselves.

2, no they don't and you know the reasons why. But I'll elaborate in a few. Game development is not a democracy. It is 100% bad design to constantly engage with the community to see answers. Since they could offer you 100 valid paths to take which one do you take?

Game development should be done by the devs, at the whim of their own direction and philosophies. Sure some players may be developers themselves or just have good ideas. That is why properly formatting feedback is important.

Second, and I've posted this before, and this came from some AMA dev blog a while back, but devs do listen. The listen to valid feedback all the time. The problem is entitled games who believe that listening devs means implementing their ideas.

Maybe they tried and it sucked, maybe they couldn't get it to work. Maybe it broke something else and they couldn't fix that. Maybe there wasn't enough time. May that change required a new expansion or patch and cannot be hot fixed. Maybe they don't have the time or other resources to implement. Maybe they don't feel it's a big issue. Or maybe it goes against their entire design philosophy.

There are many other reason why feedback isn't implemented. But that doesn't mean they don't listen. They so have no obligation to explain their process nor discuss the how's, what's, and why's of anything the do.

My suggestion is to submit feedback like a rational adult and stop playing until thing change in your favor. After all, if you continue paying, or supporting a premium sub by paying for tokens, while continuing to play, all the while constantly bitching up a storm about how awful the game and Blizzard, you are just part if the problem.

Frankly, I've liked the direction WoW has made lost WotLK. Not everything I've liked, but my time in game since Cata has been more enjoyable than Vanilla-WotLK.

[Kaleredar]

Bellular and asmond are not toxic, they are dedicated to the game and realize what makes for good game play.

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I like no flying, you actually have to explore the world instead of it being a back drop where you fly over it all in 30 seconds.

Who cares if I fly over it in the process of doing the same daily quest for the 200th time?

[arkanon]

I like no flying, you actually have to explore the world instead of it being a back drop where you fly over it all in 30 seconds.

Yes, but "exploration" requires that an area be unfamiliar - this is not possible with data mining, and Blizzard themselves showing each zone extensively during development. Sure, you could, for whatever reason, ignore all videos and screenshots of each zone, but then the game itself holds your hand and casually guides you through each zone. At absolute best, you get to "explore" each zone once, and then spend countless hours trudging through the same zones again and again and again - this is not exploration.

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Who cares if I fly over it in the process of doing the same daily quest for the 200th time?

Yeah, what this guy said.

[Jastall]

Not anymore with the incoming timer. Jesus Christ these folks

The streak bonus meter pauses in the vendor bubbles and -I think- on entry to a new floor. You can AFK just as much as in 9.0.

Still think this new scoring system is dumb as fuck, however, and totally unnecessary. If I can kill the boss, I should get to the next level, not have to pretty much 100% clear the entire wing, click on every pickup, get a streak and never die on top of that. There were ways to improve on Torghast, that was not one of them.

[Soon-TM]

The streak bonus meter pauses in the vendor bubbles and -I think- on entry to a new floor. You can AFK just as much as in 9.0.

Still think this new scoring system is dumb as fuck, however, and totally unnecessary. If I can kill the boss, I should get to the next level, not have to pretty much 100% clear the entire wing, click on every pickup, get a streak and never die on top of that. There were ways to improve on Torghast, that was not one of them.

Well, I didn't know that bit. Guess it won't be that bad then, even if it still doesn't make any sense.

[Kathranis]

Sounds like speculation rather than taking in the fact: Ask anywhere, in game or not, and most people will have a wide variety of complaints.

And I'm sure many of their complaints and suggestions will be completely contradictory.

[Icelin]

Tbh I didn't think they could be bothered to do anything like that for the players. Or more like annoyed and smug. That's why when I seen them actually trying to interact with the players (interviews) to show they don't have complete disdain/hatred (previous years of this game/blizzcon in general) for us I gave kudos. Humanizing them.

A lot of people are less intolerant. If they feel their words fall on deaf ears, they will just take their business elsewhere. This has been going on long before BFA and SLs.. I just feel the outrage was so severe that people threw up their hands and were done with it. When they took one look at SLs. I honestly feel it is several reasons that SLs did not make a good impression, but seeing the systems interlock with playerpower through covenants was the largest outcry from the community. Systems again.

Either way I digressed, this is long stemmed behavior. Which as far as I am concerned was even worse back in the day. I knew numerous people that left around Cataclysm. To go to FF14 that acknowledged what the customerbase wanted and did a rehaul on the game. They have continued this trend for many years and now will have a record breaking year. They haven't even released the new expansion yet. . . .

The problem with people thinking they are dealing with arrogant people. Let's be honest they are not all that way, but some people will feel this way. This overtime I feel damaged the environment and made an us vs them mentality. Which is just a horrendous situation. For everyone involved.

Anyways.. the game has other issues besides the past. You have people there that want to barely spend money (very bad recycling going on there..worst I have ever seen) and try and make a large profit. All the Blizzard IPS have suffered greatly from this. So they are selling their Customers the minimum, cheap product. Not only has Blizzard been pinching their wallets on their customers. From what I gather/understand they do it to a majority of their employees. Maybe it would explain why everyone that is there is sometimes not in the best of moods? A lot of Customers and Employess are not happy ultimately.

As I have been saying for months.. Blizzard has really ended up being a product of their environment in more ways than one.

I still encourage them to outreach to the people that play their products. As being rude to a customer and negligence for today's society will just not cut it. You have a terrible experience with any business it can have repercussions. I want them to keep being progressive. Maybe the mentality of the masses of us vs them will simmer down a bit, if Blizzard actually make actions instead of saying they are listening. I hope Blizzard can start treating their employees and customers better. They are more than capable.

[shoegazing]

Feedback isn't the secret ingedrient to create a good game, devs with a clear vision and the skills to execute it are.
The whole discussion about "devs aren't listening" is to some extent overblown, the devs first and foremost need to figure out what game they want to create and then build something.
People could give the most objective, concise feedback and it still wouldn't do shit if the devs cannot process it properly.

Imagine giving someone at work the possible advice to their job - it won't do jackshit if the guy doesn't have the necessary skills to do the job in the first place.

And yes, the implication that the current devs (or at least the team as whole) aren't exactly competent is intended.

The vision that these devs have utterly sucks also.

They aren't interested in preserving the things that are already good about WoW.

They are more interested in changing and re-inventing everything, whether it needs it or not, because obviously they are creative geniuses or Blizzard wouldn't have hired them.

Bunch of useless fucking idiots.