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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias1212 View Post
    The reward of mythic raiding doesn't justify the amount of time and energy spent for years now, you make no sense when you critique Ion only focusing on hardcore raiders when it's been objectively getting easier the past few years getting high end gear rewards without even stepping into a raid.

    I've stepped down to aotc raiding and i wouldn't even have done that in Bfa and nowadays if it wasn't for my guild and the players in it, running through 4x 14 keys is less time consuming and easier while being able to get very high end and even BIS gear from it.
    Now let's throw the ridiculous cheap boosting prices into that nowadays... yeah no, the reward structure is kinda broken.
    Baddies have always blamed high end raiders for every single thing, and the charge that current WoW is built for high end is one of the most ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrion1602 View Post
    You can't be this dense.

    This is 100% the result of putting SHAREHOLDER PROFIT as a priority. It has nothing to do with "players" in charge. If players were in charge, loot would be a lot more plentiful. Obviously. WoW has and always will be a skinner box that you put time and money into, and the more of it you do, the happier Bobby Ko-smalldick's friends are. Try harder next time.
    Loot was a lot less plentiful with the “old guard” in charge.

    See vanilla and TBC.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Because so many are already obsessed or addicted and no matter how mad they get and how many times they claim "I'm quitting!", they always come back shortly after. This game can get worse and worse and those same people will still remain not only subbed but likely cash in for all the optional extras.
    Its still more fun than most other MMOs on the market though.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Its still more fun than most other MMOs on the market though.
    It could be, that's subjective. I have more fun (personally) playing FFXI than WoW. Whether it's fun or not, people are still obsessed. Granted, people are obsessed with FFXI, Minecraft, etc. Even if you piss them off, they'll still come back and feed you money.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It could be, that's subjective. I have more fun (personally) playing FFXI than WoW. Whether it's fun or not, people are still obsessed. Granted, people are obsessed with FFXI, Minecraft, etc. Even if you piss them off, they'll still come back and feed you money.
    Tried out FFXI once because the job system looked dope but damn, that game was really unapproachable.

    With WoW, I also feel like that people try to make out early WoW into something it never was. The games success always came from the fact that it was pretty casual in its leveling phase which you could finish completely solo purely through quests without doing much grind, with a great focus on instanced content and raids as endgame. What they did was greatly build on instanced content and raids.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Tried out FFXI once because the job system looked dope but damn, that game was really unapproachable.

    With WoW, I also feel like that people try to make out early WoW into something it never was. The games success always came from the fact that it was pretty casual in its leveling phase which you could finish completely solo purely through quests without doing much grind, with a great focus on instanced content and raids as endgame. What they did was greatly build on instanced content and raids.
    Anyone trying to play it now, I agree, it is not the most approachable game. The combat is dated but those who played it a lot back in the day are used to it. I enjoy it because a really good piece of gear I got 2 years ago is still best in slot today. That will never happen in WoW.

    I can agree partially about early WoW. The fact that you could progress solo (mostly) was a huge appeal. I can't speak for others but for me, early WoW did have a great community. There were group quests that nobody except the occasional well-geared Warlock was soloing. You would group up and later, do a dungeon with that person and be like "hey, I know that dude...". It forced you to interact with people, not sit in town and click a button and have the game make groups for you.

    Granted, I love LFD/LFR as I'm now a family man and can't wait around for groups like I used to, I'll still never forget it. And no, I never thought Classic would bring that back. Too many games now with their instant gratification, few want to work for anything.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Seriously.

    There's no real old guard left.

    Pretty much everyone on the Dev team now started out as a player.

    From Ion to Christie Golden, all of them were and probably still are players of the game.

    So every time you say "well the players need to be in charge." They are.

    Doesn't mean that I'm super thrilled with the direction of the game (narratively I feel it's far too focused on characters rather than making the world more amazing and letting us discover it.) Just that current Blizz is farmed from the community itself.

    As it stands every game studio with someone age 25 to 50 in it has WoW players whether current or former in every single level of development and management.
    Old guard you mean guys like Kaplan who joined the team to make WoW who was previously an EQ raider along with AA. Or Ion who was an old school raider and part of Elitist Jerks. See, the problem is you only know a handful of the big names involved. Hundreds to thousands have worked on WoW and many still have been around from the beginning.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Anyone trying to play it now, I agree, it is not the most approachable game. The combat is dated but those who played it a lot back in the day are used to it. I enjoy it because a really good piece of gear I got 2 years ago is still best in slot today. That will never happen in WoW.
    Yeah but this is due to the game not being supported anymore and not receiving lots of new content. It isn't really a good sign if you can have the best gear in a game for two years. Even with Artifact weapons in WoW, I kinda found it lacking that I would never get any new weapon during Legion.

    I can agree partially about early WoW. The fact that you could progress solo (mostly) was a huge appeal. I can't speak for others but for me, early WoW did have a great community. There were group quests that nobody except the occasional well-geared Warlock was soloing. You would group up and later, do a dungeon with that person and be like "hey, I know that dude...". It forced you to interact with people, not sit in town and click a button and have the game make groups for you.
    That was due to it being social media before social media existed. People would log in to hang out with each other, chat and do social stuff. Nowadays, you chat with people through different plattforms. Also it was everyones first MMO-RPG and everyone was so bad in the game that they needed months to level a toon.

    Granted, I love LFD/LFR as I'm now a family man and can't wait around for groups like I used to, I'll still never forget it. And no, I never thought Classic would bring that back. Too many games now with their instant gratification, few want to work for anything.
    What you call instant gratification is basically just increasing the time in which you actually play the game. I mean, was it hard to look for people for a dungeon? Was it like a challenge that needed coordination and knowledge of the game mechanics? It wasn't, it was just consuming time in which you had to spam the same message over and over again in chat hoping that somebody replies while not being able to play the game. It was also just forcing casual socialization. Did you ever socialize because you were that invested in who that person actually is and wanted to get to know that guy or because you were bored out of your ass waiting for hour to find a tank knowing full well that even after you found one, you would need to travel from Stormwind to Mauradon which will take at the very least an additional hour.

    You can get the original WoW experience any time you want. In the moment you really want to play a dungeon, you just need to stop doing anything in the game for half an hour and chat with some rando on discord.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Seriously.

    There's no real old guard left.

    Pretty much everyone on the Dev team now started out as a player.

    From Ion to Christie Golden, all of them were and probably still are players of the game.

    So every time you say "well the players need to be in charge." They are.

    Doesn't mean that I'm super thrilled with the direction of the game (narratively I feel it's far too focused on characters rather than making the world more amazing and letting us discover it.) Just that current Blizz is farmed from the community itself.

    As it stands every game studio with someone age 25 to 50 in it has WoW players whether current or former in every single level of development and management.


    I think the money goblins are in charge tho;

    There is an interview Ion did in 2008 for Curse, when he was still GM of EJ pre-Blizzard job that was pitch perfect in regards to WoW issues even in 2020. I'd actually really like for someone like Preach or Asmon in an interview to ask him about some of his answers at the time. Like, it would actually be amazing, maybe his skin will crack and the real Ion will burst out.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Yeah but this is due to the game not being supported anymore and not receiving lots of new content. It isn't really a good sign if you can have the best gear in a game for two years. Even with Artifact weapons in WoW, I kinda found it lacking that I would never get any new weapon during Legion.
    The way the game is designed, it is actually a good thing. You reach the level cap and there are several different pieces you can collect for all your gear sets. It's not like in WoW where you get 1 piece of chest armor and it's BiS... period. I have a few for one of my FFXI jobs. One for tanking physical, one for tanking magic and one for damage dealing. Same goes for other slots. In addition, many can be upgraded to +1, +2 or +3 versions so that the "carrot on a stick" model isn't lingering.

    That was due to it being social media before social media existed. People would log in to hang out with each other, chat and do social stuff. Nowadays, you chat with people through different plattforms. Also it was everyones first MMO-RPG and everyone was so bad in the game that they needed months to level a toon.
    We did have Myspace back then but social media was not what it is today, I can agree. It was the first MMO for many though others played either FFXI, Everquest, Ragnarok, etc. Man, thinking back, WoW's fast-paced combat was an eye-opener for people who played those earlier MMOs.

    What you call instant gratification is basically just increasing the time in which you actually play the game. I mean, was it hard to look for people for a dungeon? Was it like a challenge that needed coordination and knowledge of the game mechanics? It wasn't, it was just consuming time in which you had to spam the same message over and over again in chat hoping that somebody replies while not being able to play the game. It was also just forcing casual socialization. Did you ever socialize because you were that invested in who that person actually is and wanted to get to know that guy or because you were bored out of your ass waiting for hour to find a tank knowing full well that even after you found one, you would need to travel from Stormwind to Mauradon which will take at the very least an additional hour.

    You can get the original WoW experience any time you want. In the moment you really want to play a dungeon, you just need to stop doing anything in the game for half an hour and chat with some rando on discord.
    I guess it all depends on how you look at it. It's all subjective. One guy may spend 10 minutes trying to get a group and say "man, screw this" while someone else will gladly wait around looking for hours. There could be someone who wants to do a dungeon but they're in a place where they will not see you shouting. With LFD, you can be anywhere doing whatever while the game seeks members for you.

    As far as getting to know someone, maybe not quite that far. When you have no choice but to interact with people, some like to make the best of it and toss in some humor. Sure, we just had a awkward trek going from up by the Undercity down to Uldaman. Dungeons were not as trimmed and dumbed down as they are now, so a little coordination went a long way. Dungeons also took longer, so you spent more time with the same people. And without cross-server, you likely did other dungeons with some of the same people, so maybe not "bonds" but acquaintances or even friendships developed.

    Today, with how watered down that leveling content is, CC is never necessary and you can complete the entire thing without saying a single word. Things like that remove the real "social" aspect of it. When you can almost completely forget that there are other people playing there with you, that's not very social.

    While I have plenty of good memories of real vanilla, I know it can't be re-created as it was. We can get a carbon copy of it to itch that bit of nostalgia but it will never and can never be the way it used to be, no matter how much we want it to.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    The way the game is designed, it is actually a good thing. You reach the level cap and there are several different pieces you can collect for all your gear sets. It's not like in WoW where you get 1 piece of chest armor and it's BiS... period. I have a few for one of my FFXI jobs. One for tanking physical, one for tanking magic and one for damage dealing. Same goes for other slots. In addition, many can be upgraded to +1, +2 or +3 versions so that the "carrot on a stick" model isn't lingering.



    We did have Myspace back then but social media was not what it is today, I can agree. It was the first MMO for many though others played either FFXI, Everquest, Ragnarok, etc. Man, thinking back, WoW's fast-paced combat was an eye-opener for people who played those earlier MMOs.



    I guess it all depends on how you look at it. It's all subjective. One guy may spend 10 minutes trying to get a group and say "man, screw this" while someone else will gladly wait around looking for hours. There could be someone who wants to do a dungeon but they're in a place where they will not see you shouting. With LFD, you can be anywhere doing whatever while the game seeks members for you.

    As far as getting to know someone, maybe not quite that far. When you have no choice but to interact with people, some like to make the best of it and toss in some humor. Sure, we just had a awkward trek going from up by the Undercity down to Uldaman. Dungeons were not as trimmed and dumbed down as they are now, so a little coordination went a long way. Dungeons also took longer, so you spent more time with the same people. And without cross-server, you likely did other dungeons with some of the same people, so maybe not "bonds" but acquaintances or even friendships developed.

    Today, with how watered down that leveling content is, CC is never necessary and you can complete the entire thing without saying a single word. Things like that remove the real "social" aspect of it. When you can almost completely forget that there are other people playing there with you, that's not very social.

    While I have plenty of good memories of real vanilla, I know it can't be re-created as it was. We can get a carbon copy of it to itch that bit of nostalgia but it will never and can never be the way it used to be, no matter how much we want it to.
    Have you considered a lot of wow's social problems stem from the game being far to easy followed by a very step rapid difficulty spike?

    A lot of the examples you mentioned as positives exist in very high keys and mythic raiding but by the time they are really introduced they need to be handled near perfectly or risk a near instant wipe.

    I personally think mythic plus shouldn't exist in the form it currently does. WoW should really have three difficulties that reward loot and each be their own strict tier of difficulty. Mythic + seems like it would serve better as a source of cosmetics to allow for a more natural difficulty curve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Baddies have always blamed high end raiders for every single thing, and the charge that current WoW is built for high end is one of the most ludicrous.

    The meme is so brutally honest it hurts...from making your sides shake.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Have you considered a lot of wow's social problems stem from the game being far to easy followed by a very step rapid difficulty spike?

    A lot of the examples you mentioned as positives exist in very high keys and mythic raiding but by the time they are really introduced they need to be handled near perfectly or risk a near instant wipe.

    I personally think mythic plus shouldn't exist in the form it currently does. WoW should really have three difficulties that reward loot and each be their own strict tier of difficulty. Mythic + seems like it would serve better as a source of cosmetics to allow for a more natural difficulty curve.
    I'm sure that may have a factor in the equation. I will always maintain that automated matching systems combined with watered down content are what greatly lowered the social aspect of the game.

    I have my views on what M+ should be but it always ends up triggering people and a simple "my opinion is..." turns into a flaming contest so I'll refrain. Not insinuating that you would start it but others who may be reading.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Have you considered a lot of wow's social problems stem from the game being far to easy followed by a very step rapid difficulty spike?

    A lot of the examples you mentioned as positives exist in very high keys and mythic raiding but by the time they are really introduced they need to be handled near perfectly or risk a near instant wipe.

    I personally think mythic plus shouldn't exist in the form it currently does. WoW should really have three difficulties that reward loot and each be their own strict tier of difficulty. Mythic + seems like it would serve better as a source of cosmetics to allow for a more natural difficulty curve.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The meme is so brutally honest it hurts...from making your sides shake.
    What rapid difficulty spike? You level, get to 60, have world quests, normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, m0 dungeons, m+ dungeons, lfr, N/H/M raids for pve. There are so many incremental steps. Im not seeing any rapid increase in difficulty.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    What rapid difficulty spike? You level, get to 60, have world quests, normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, m0 dungeons, m+ dungeons, lfr, N/H/M raids for pve. There are so many incremental steps. Im not seeing any rapid increase in difficulty.
    Don't have time to really go in depth my day is starting soon but its also tied to the reward structure. People are rapidly pushed out of the starting difficulties regardless of competency from being over rewarded and incentivized into content they have no chance to succeed in.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkke View Post
    Current WoW is what you get when talent and skill are no longer priority when hiring people.
    This. I don’t see the talent, skill, or passion from this current dev team.

    They design WoW very much like a job they hate, and not a passion project

    How many of them actually play wow in their free time?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Don't have time to really go in depth my day is starting soon but its also tied to the reward structure. People are rapidly pushed out of the starting difficulties regardless of competency from being over rewarded and incentivized into content they have no chance to succeed in.
    After u get cov gear, most upgrades come from the weekly vault. Starting with m+2, you'll get a 200 piece from the vault. Players shldnt expect infinitely farmable content 1 small step up in difficulty to immediately drop upgrades.

    Most ppl think the solution to this is to make casual gear even better but this only exacerbates the problem. Players should raid for ~10 x 20% chance at an upgrade. Or they should start transitioning their mindset to once a week upgrades with the very occasional slight upgrade from a drop.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Seriously.

    There's no real old guard left.

    Pretty much everyone on the Dev team now started out as a player.

    From Ion to Christie Golden, all of them were and probably still are players of the game.

    So every time you say "well the players need to be in charge." They are.

    Doesn't mean that I'm super thrilled with the direction of the game (narratively I feel it's far too focused on characters rather than making the world more amazing and letting us discover it.) Just that current Blizz is farmed from the community itself.

    As it stands every game studio with someone age 25 to 50 in it has WoW players whether current or former in every single level of development and management.
    No this is what you get when you put a lawyer in charge who master the art of political speaking, never say anything with a point and a company that only cares about profit, put in as little rescourse as possible, making sure there are time gate everywhere in the game to make people log online as long as possible to provide good numbers for investors.

    If you put a guy who truly cares about their game or dev who listens to the playerbase you get games like GW2, GrimDawn, FFVI etc etc.

    Oh and you don't tell your employee they are getting a lower salary compare to other company because they get to work in blizzard and they should be honor they get to work on the games they play. That's not the way to keep talents. And you don't fire all your GMs and cut your customer support, y our surely don't have only 2 class devs to design and tweak every single spec/class in the game.
    Last edited by sponge5307; 2021-05-20 at 03:27 PM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    This. I don’t see the talent, skill, or passion from this current dev team.

    They design WoW very much like a job they hate, and not a passion project

    How many of them actually play wow in their free time?
    Blizzard cut a lot of corners with hiring in the past years. Jobs that required continued education can now be obtained without a high school diploma. Developers from prestigious schools are replaced by developers from community colleges.

    I do not mean for that to sound condescending but while it all sounded like good business to save money and hire people not seeking higher salaries, you get what you pay for.

  19. #139
    “当下负责任的玩家所获得的是当前的魔兽世界”……这实际上取决 于您所负责任的玩家的类型。当您将一台具有系统和*论技巧方面的� �硬攻略的硬核袭击者掌管时,您将获得当前的《魔兽世界》。

    - - - Updated - - -

    “当下负责任的玩家所获得的是当前的魔兽世界”……这实际上取决 于您所负责任的玩家的类型。当您将一台具有系统和*论技巧方面的

  20. #140
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Blizzard cut a lot of corners with hiring in the past years. Jobs that required continued education can now be obtained without a high school diploma. Developers from prestigious schools are replaced by developers from community colleges.

    I do not mean for that to sound condescending but while it all sounded like good business to save money and hire people not seeking higher salaries, you get what you pay for.
    What are you basing this on?

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