Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[downnola]

No no, what would Gaidax have the poor Israeli Government do? They have no choice but to brutally treat Palestinians.

How do you expect them to protect their family if they don't clear the third holiest site in Islam during Ramadan prayers to make way for a far-right nationalist parade?

[Cringefest]

How do you expect them to protect their family if they don't clear the third holiest site in Islam during Ramadan prayers to make way for a far-right nationalist parade?

The things you have to do to protect your family.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

They can't cause you won't allow any construction material in. "Construction materials including metal pipes, steel and cement are banned".
Hard to stick a 10ft RSJ through a handmade tunnel.

IIRC, metal pipes, steel and cement are blockaded as they are important ingredients of the Hamas war machine.

On an architectural point of view. A lack of metal pipes, steel and cement does not detract from being able to build, particularly in this part of the World which has a more than 10'000 year history of earth and stone structures.

[DingDongKing]

IIRC, metal pipes, steel and cement are blockaded as they are important ingredients of the Hamas war machine.

On an architectural point of view. A lack of metal pipes, steel and cement does not detract from being able to build, particularly in this part of the World which has a more than 10'000 year history of earth and stone structures.

Sure, build stuff and then have it promptly bombed by the Israeli Government. Or, when the fancy takes the Israeli Government, evict folk and claim said houses. 'Oh, lovely house you've built here. Well unfortunately our ancestors lived right here 2500 years ago, so it's ours now.'

[Cringefest]

IIRC, metal pipes, steel and cement are blockaded as they are important ingredients of the Hamas war machine.

On an architectural point of view. A lack of metal pipes, steel and cement does not detract from being able to build, particularly in this part of the World which has a more than 10'000 year history of earth and stone structures.

Yeah let's build hospitals in mud. What in the name of christ are you talking about. Maps might be your forte but costrution surely ain't one. Good lord I can't believe I read that.

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Earth and stone buildings... I've been on forums what 20 years? This goes straight to the top 5 most absurd things I've read.

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Also if there's a shortage of cars you know what they shoud do? Just grab an old car and make a hole underneath. They can push it with their legs.

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IIRC, metal pipes, steel and cement are blockaded as they are important ingredients of the Hamas war machine.

On an architectural point of view. A lack of metal pipes, steel and cement does not detract from being able to build, particularly in this part of the World which has a more than 10'000 year history of earth and stone structures.

No actually, I want to continue this. I've been in buildings 12 years. I'm curios to see how far you can take it.

Can you please expand on your earth and stone structures please? Something like I don't know, those old neolithic tombs?

[Cringefest]

@Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

Ok so here's the scenario. One of the most populated areas on the globe, so you have to build in height. You have to build a hospital of say, 10 floors height. Go for it.

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"ok lads let's go find rocks to use as foundations! But hey... They have to be big ones!"

[Endus]

2. These several families did not pay rent for decades to the owners of that land and were a center of litigation that lasted for many many years. In the end after all the cuddling, Supreme Court reached a verdict and even that was lenient as it gets with arbitration. Except that said families goaded by Palestinian nationalists decided to not go with that either. The whole bloody place was Jewish quarter pre-1948 when Jordan invaded. In 1967 the original owners returned, but settled families disputed the matter, which was settled in court - they paid rent to the owners until around late 1990s when PA told them to stop payments.

Pretty much every component of this misrepresents the truth, relying on a biased Israeli court decision as its sole bit of evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh...operty_dispute

The long and short is;

1> Israeli law allows Israeli Jews to make claims about land in occupied territories. It does not allow Palestinians to make comparable claims in Israel.

2> The Ottoman-era deeds are of disputed provenance, far from being clearly Jewish-owned.

3> While several hundred Jewish residents in West Jerusalem were displaced in 1948, so were ~750,000 Palestinians in Israel, and the displaced Jews were offered high-value properties that had been seized from the wealthier Palestinians. This should be considered compensation for the loss of the properties in East Jerusalem, ending their claim, unless Israel is to allow Palestinians to take back those properties in East Jerusalem and the rest of Israel as well, eviciting hundreds of thousands of Israelis in the process.

4> Israel shouldn't have authority to prosecute any such land disputes in East Jerusalem, given that it is not part of Israel.

5> These particular properties weren't even legally returned to prior owners, but to committee organizations who then handed them off to settler organizations.

Presenting this as "bad Palestinians won't pay honest Israeli landlords their rent" is such an egregious misrepresentation of the facts that it's clear you're not participating in good faith.

[tehdang]

Yes, we care to invest in protecting our citizens. Sorry for not dying so easily.

Maybe if Hamas would not fire rockets from under fucking buildings in Gaza, their citizens would not need to worry about it either.

The same old “I’m against civilian casualties, but want more Israeli civilians to die before Israel is allowed to retaliate against terrorist missile sites and military infrastructure located adjoining to and within civilian areas.”

The Israeli government is justified in its current activities because of the insane level of rocket attacks directed against its civilian population, period. And half-baked ideas about squatters in formerly Jordanian occupied territory, and weird retellings of riots in the Temple Mount, don’t help matters.

Luckily for the region, Israel is advanced enough to make targeted strikes, and defend its citizens with its Iron Dome, without necessitating a full invasion and occupation to protect its citizens from rocket fire. That alternative would be much worse. Anyways, I’m glad that your government is establishing a temporary deterrent and doesn’t buy into keeping its citizens running into bomb shelters day and night so international observers eventually have to confront the truth about Hamas.

[Themius]

The same old “I’m against civilian casualties, but want more Israeli civilians to die before Israel is allowed to retaliate against terrorist missile sites and military infrastructure located adjoining to and within civilian areas.”

The Israeli government is justified in its current activities because of the insane level of rocket attacks directed against its civilian population, period. And half-baked ideas about squatters in formerly Jordanian occupied territory, and weird retellings of riots in the Temple Mount, don’t help matters.

Luckily for the region, Israel is advanced enough to make targeted strikes, and defend its citizens with its Iron Dome, without necessitating a full invasion and occupation to protect its citizens from rocket fire. That alternative would be much worse. Anyways, I’m glad that your government is establishing a temporary deterrent and doesn’t buy into keeping its citizens running into bomb shelters day and night so international observers eventually have to confront the truth about Hamas.

Rockets that are largely intercepted? So that means it is okay to just kill Palestinians?

[Draco-Onis]

No, I don’t care who I am defending. You think telling him that not living there, means you don’t care, helps your point? You think that shows him to be this evil poster you say he is? Because I think it’s doing the opposite... I don’t think dog piling on someone, because they have more at stake, just emboldens the very people you are trying to disagree with.

I don’t care who the poster is... I am responding to the comments being made... Why would I ever respond to people that have me on ignore, if I cared who I am responding to?

The reason people are dog pilling on him is because he advocates for the mass killing of "savages". For all we know he is cheering those lynch mobs as they go after the Arab Israelis. If you don't care then that's on you, I think there's a medium between hugging Hamas and killing everyone down to the last fetus.

[uuuhname]

Unlike you, I'm actually living here, experiencing this and know what I'm talking about from actual experience and not your SJW crocodile tears sources.

Imagine the length people leap here to go as far as to side with terrorist organizations. Next thing you'd be pledging gofundme to Hamas for "restoration of Gaza" of course.

it's not much of a leap when you know the US government already funds terrorist organizations across the middle east, directly. so kick rocks with this it's supporting terrorism to give aid to Palestinians.

[Easo]

His nonchalant disregard for human life on the other side of the Israel border is what makes him a sociopath. If he was in this thread just expressing the concern for the safety of his family I wouldn't be responding to him the way that I do. A casual look into his post history demonstrates that isn't the case.

Might come with millions (no, really, millions) running to shelters each day. You know, the thing you and some other posters disregard?

Hamas fires rockets that are immediately nullified by the iron dome and Israel responds by leveling entire buildings for weeks on end killing women and children. Yeah man, I totally see your point.

Except not all are nulified and you know that well. Also does not stop mortars on Sderot. Nor, again, the shelter running (kills people too, btw).

They can't, because of the blockade

You live there and don't even know what's going on lol.

Hamas can't spend that money on infrastructure, healthcare, education, etc., because of blockade? Yet somehow they can spend it on rockets, bunkers, weapons manufactories and so on? Seems logical. wait, it does not.

Hamas doesn't speak for all Palestinians, and not all Palestinians want Hamas to speak for them even.

You have to be dumb as fucking box of rocks to think that Hamas is some benevolent Government looking to actually build up Palestine.

They're a militant force. They're twats. Their actions do not make it acceptable to kill innocent Palestinians.

Saying their actions would make it acceptable to kill Palestinians means it would all of a sudden be acceptable for Iraqi rebels to wanton turn up in the US and start blowing up buildings because the US wrongly invaded Iraq. Since you know US Army invading = All Americans bad.

They were elected in Gaza. Look at their overall popularity ratings now, they have chance of winning PA elections. Seems pretty clear that big enough part of Palestinians actually do support them.

It's a bubble.
Those tunnels are the only way most goods can enter Gaza but yea the poverty isn't caused by the destruction of the infrastructure and not being able to rebuild roads and buildings but because Hamas is digging tunnels. Without those tunnels things would probably be allot worse.

With right-wingers however there is a bad habit that events are never connected and it's always the other side at fault. If the Palestinians just bowed and left whenever they want everything would be fine.

Those tunnels dug towards Israel were also for goods entering? Btw, why is Egypt destroying them as well? Just a question for you...

Rockets that are largely intercepted? So that means it is okay to just kill Palestinians?

Themius still does not get that efficiency in defense does not change the fact that rockets are flying, which is a big no no under the international law which he and others love mentioning.

[downnola]

Might come with millions (no, really, millions) running to shelters each day. You know, the thing you and some other posters disregard?



Except not all are nulified and you know that well. Also does not stop mortars on Sderot. Nor, again, the shelter running (kills people too, btw).

You're not seriously trying to argue that Israelis are terrorized anywhere near the same level as Palestinians have been over the past two weeks, are you? If so, discussing this subject with you is just a colossal waste of my time.

[Endus]

Themius still does not get that efficiency in defense does not change the fact that rockets are flying, which is a big no no under the international law which he and others love mentioning.

This is just rank whataboutism.

Nothing about Hamas' actions justify Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses.

The reverse, of course, is also true, and I'll note here that Hamas makes the same bad arguments you're using, just to defend their own use of rocket attacks. Literally the same arguments.

[ati87]

Those tunnels dug towards Israel were also for goods entering? Btw, why is Egypt destroying them as well? Just a question for you...

.

Same reason why Egypt is helping Israel because Egypt is ruled by a military dictatorship who wants to stay in power and in order to do that they need to keep Americans happy.

Not a really difficult question. If you don't allow people in Gaza to import cement how else would they rebuild there homes?

[OwenBurton]

Isn't the current conflict because that neighborhood had been bought by a Jew or a group of Jews back during Ottoman Imperial days, but then was occupied and annexed by Jordan and then things got messy because Arabs settled there, but when Israel won in 67' the land was returned and the owner wanted to evict them, but the courts said no, and they didn't want to pay rent and its all a big legal battle over title owner and rent payments due and somehow this has become "ITS A GENOCIDE!" or something. This is a wild conflict. As far as I can tell, the land was owned legally by a Jewish person before Israel even existed and the current Arabs there are the people given it by the Jordanians when they occupied that part of Jerusalem between 49-67.

I deeply respect the Jewish culture and heritage - I have studied it long and carefully. Which is why I feel so saddened and conflicted regarding this conflict. I have also been fascinated by the Arabs' culture as well - although perhaps not for the same reasons originally. I wish the Jews and the Arabs could learn from their past. Why repeat the cycle over and over again? The Jewish people have so much potential to stand for something other than simply...a people fighting for their survival.

Why not establish a universal democracy - a one-state solution, with Jews and Arabs of all backgrounds and religions having equal rights, under a truly united government?

Our world is suffering enough as it is. Do you not notice the situation in India, for example? And other places? It is shameful...that the peoples of the Middle East has failed to live up to their responsibilities.

[Gaidax]

Ceasefire tomorrow.

Both sides will announce glorious victory and we'll be back at it in another 4-7 years.

[Theodarzna]

Why not establish a universal democracy - a one-state solution, with Jews and Arabs of all backgrounds and religions having equal rights, under a truly united government?

Our world is suffering enough as it is. Do you not notice the situation in India, for example? And other places? It is shameful...that the peoples of the Middle East has failed to live up to their responsibilities.

I think this conflict emphasizes why that is never going to happen. If an Arab finds it beneath them and an insult to their personal sense of honor and dignity to respect Jews as equals; as was initially a common occurrence before Israel existed, than there really cannot be peace and co-existence. The Arab position IMHO has always been one rooted in a deep seeded racism and sense of superiority. The thing that is so offensive to them is that someone they considered subordinate and inferior not just defeating them but easily defeating them. That is the real psychic wound. Prior to Israel, as anyone who cares to dig through the Mandate era and even Ottoman era records wants to read, are replete with accounts that to summarize are essentially that Arabs did not consider the idea of Jews as property owners as valid. A Jews property was merely an Arabs property loaned out, and it was customary to be able to say pelt a Jew with stones but if that Jew should think he or she has a right to defend themselves, that was an offense worthy of death.

In the end the Palestine cause is ultimately the restoration of that social order, and their wailing and lamentation today is missing the era of their legally mandated dominance. Palestine would be an ethno-state, one with caked in legally sanctioned inequality. People in this thread are essentially condemning "Evil Apartied State" which curiously has multiple sorts of people able to buy and sell property among other wonders; all while cheering on the creation of what will absolutely be an Apartied State, but I guess they just support some peoples sense of resentment and bitterness.

If a mere demand for a rent check and respect for legally purchased buildings cannot be upheld because it aggravates someones sense of resentment, bitterness and entitlement to have to pay money to someone of another sort, than they cannot reasonably live at peace.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Yeah let's build hospitals in mud. What in the name of christ are you talking about. Maps might be your forte but costrution surely ain't one. Good lord I can't believe I read that.

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Earth and stone buildings... I've been on forums what 20 years? This goes straight to the top 5 most absurd things I've read.

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Also if there's a shortage of cars you know what they shoud do? Just grab an old car and make a hole underneath. They can push it with their legs.

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No actually, I want to continue this. I've been in buildings 12 years. I'm curios to see how far you can take it.

Can you please expand on your earth and stone structures please? Something like I don't know, those old neolithic tombs?

Ever heard of that thing called stonemasonry? Until WW2, that was the stuff most of cities in the Old World were made of, and the preferred material for building public buildings of all things, like, for example, hospitals...
Have you ever been to any European City or Jerusalem? Of all places the Middle East is the part of the world where its advanced forms are the most ancient...

Beside, I just so happen to be working in civil engineering, designing the likes of roads, water/sewer nerworks, concrete bridges, retaining walls and building structures in a concrete obsessed country.

You'll excuse me for not being a normie drone, but one curious of Architectural Heritage since childood. Add to that having directly enjoyed the benefits of earth architecture on my previous mapping work in an area of Subsharan Africa with a very similar climate.

I guess this is an understandable opinion given the now old modernist and productivist mainstream pushing away those old-fashioned, labor intensive yet perfectly adapted to the local climate forms. One would expect labor intensivity being less of a constraint in an area with massive youth unemployment.

But you know what? After various individuals, Architects and NGOs experimented with the stuff, now Hamas is supporting mudbrick construction, tunnel digging even providing an abundance of raw material.

[Endus]

I think this conflict emphasizes why that is never going to happen. If an Arab finds it beneath them and an insult to their personal sense of honor and dignity to respect Jews as equals; as was initially a common occurrence before Israel existed, than there really cannot be peace and co-existence. The Arab position IMHO has always been one rooted in a deep seeded racism and sense of superiority. The thing that is so offensive to them is a race they consider to be subordinate not just defeating them but easily defeating them. That is the real psychic wound. Prior to Israel, as anyone who cares to dig through the Mandate era and even Ottoman era records wants to read, are replete with accounts that to summarize are essentially that Arabs did not consider the idea of Jews as property owners as valid. A Jews property was merely an Arabs property loaned out, and it was customary to be able to say pelt a Jew with stones but if that Jew should think he or she has a right to defend themselves, that was an offense worthy of death. In the end the Arab cause is ultimately the restoration of that social order, and their wailing and lamentation today is missing the era of their legally mandated racial dominance. People in this thread are essentially condemning "Evil Apartied State" which curiously has multiple sorts of people able to buy and sell property among other wonders; all while cheering on the creation of what will absolutely be an Apartied State, but I guess they just support Arabs sense of racial resentment and bitterness.

This is ridiculously one-sided.

Israeli Jews have been at least as racist towards Arabic peoples as vice versa. And in particular, regarding the last few decades, is just ignoring that the attitudes among Arabic peoples have been improved drastically in this regard, whereas Israel is, if anything, become more exclusionary, more ethnonationalist.

Were Jews evicted from Jordanian-held Palestine in 1948? Sure. A few hundred. Pales in comparison to the number of Palestinians evicted from Israel simultaneously, which were around three-quarters of a million.

Just as an example, see how most of the Middle East supports a two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. And Israel does not.