Patch 9.1 PTR - Main Campaign Chapter 6 A New Path, Super Squirt Day EU

[Kallisto]

He did more evil acts (without the justification, which is important) only after he touched Frostmourne, which like it or not could give him the out of being mind controlled.
Sylvanas has none of that so far. At best it is going to say the version we see is the evil one or something.

Also I find it hard to swallow that Sylvanas is less evil when she immolated civilians to fuel the armies of a villain who intends to destroy the universe.

Frostmourne does not give him an out. He was in full control as shown in the game, in his own book, in comic books based around him. All it did was give him a sense of justification in what he was doing but he was still Arthas, he was still in full control, everything he did he did as Arthas. Just like everything Vader did in Star Wars he was in full control and was still the same person that was picked up on Tattooine as a child by Qui Gon.

[Sondrelk]

Arthas did nothing wrong.

Also going to revendreth != being instantly redeemed. You suffer and basically get tortured until you atoned for your sins. Pretty fitting for Arthas, who's greatest sin was probably his pride.

I wouldn't necessarily say his flaw was pride. It would be given what sons Revendreth goes for but it always seemed more like Arthas was insecure and tried hiding that by being impulsive.

Or at least that is what I get from Stratholme. He doesn't actually know a good solution so he instead goes all in with the resources he has without thinking them through.

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Frostmourne does not give him an out. He was in full control as shown in the game, in his own book, in comic books based around him. All it did was give him a sense of justification in what he was doing but he was still Arthas, he was still in full control, everything he did he did as Arthas. Just like everything Vader did in Star Wars he was in full control and was still the same person that was picked up on Tattooine as a child by Qui Gon.

Not necessarily in the current writing.

The short we got before SL heavily hints that the more of the Lich Kings power you use (shown by the blue eyes) the more you are influenced by the Jailer.

Bolvar managed to push that influence away but seemed to lose it when he fought Sylvanas. The idea Bolvar presents then is that if he wouldn't be stopped then he would do the same things Arthas did.

So like it or not the mind control angle on Arthas is now definitely being hinted at.

[Duese]

Arthas already had his redemption. It was one of the last times that blizzard actually wrote a story well.

The way they handled Arthas was really a great outcome. It wasn't redeeming him for his actions but instead just saying that it's over. It was incredibly powerful in that they didn't try to claim he didn't do anything wrong but at the same time had the relief of it being over for everyone involved.

When they try to go back and rewrite these characters and rewrite history with these characters whose stories are done (and done well), it just makes them worse.

[Darknessvamp]

The point is that he did that with the justification of hunting mal'ganis who was still out there and possibly able to start a new plague of undeath.

It's only after he touches Frostmourne that the completely unjustified acts begin.

Kel'thuzad is by far more evil considering he didn't have any justification for his actions at all except wanting more power.

Much of it falls on whether there was some mind control of sorts after Arthas touched the blade, and even if it wasn't there are still far more evil people on Revendreth given it seems to put everyone on the evil spectrum there.

There is no justification for damning your men who were following a superior's orders to a suicide mission regardless of whether or not it was successful (remember the Dwarves that they meet had been stranded on Northrend for who knows how long (Arthas wasn't even aware they were there) and were in desperate need of rescue) and there was no guarantee that killing Mal'ganis would've been the end of it and Arthas states he was only going to kill Mal'ganis because of his pride and desire for revenge as he was goaded into it. Also as mentioned prior Stratholme isn't fully justifiable either.

I'm not sure why you brought up Kel'thuzad but he did have somewhat of a justification for studying necromancy, their enemies, the orcs, who had threatened their lives had made use of those magics to create some of their strongest soldiers and it would have been foolish to leave a school of magic unknown especially if it could be used against them and was shown to be particularly dangerous (pretty much the justification for why they studied the Arcane which Dalaran was fully aware could be an extremely dangerous and unstable form of magic). Then the fact that the other scholars went out of their way to ostracise him for taking an interest in exploring and studying the magic rather than taking it's risks seriously and even going so far as Antonidas destroying his belongings and quarters before threatening him with complete removal and disgrace as a member of the Council of Six and from Dalaran which he then did so kinda presents justification for why he would turn on the Kingdom and go worship the Lich King who wasn't such a massive prick as the Dalaran wizards.

Well we know that he could hear the voice of the Lich King through the blade but it's clear his return to Lordaeron and it's subsequent conquest was of his own desire as Frozen Throne reveals that the Lich King had been calling for Arthas to return to his side for some time since he left Northrend and he only does so after he took near total control of the Kingdom. As for Revendreth, that's because we haven't even been given any indication if there is any sort of criteria that gets one thrown in the Maw and Blizzard just seems set to say the Arbiter only sends everyone genocidal to get spanked for a few centuries in Revendreth until the Accuser decides they are repent to their satisfaction or throws them in the Maw at her own discretion... or the Stonewright gets pissed and does so regardless of the Accuser's input.

[thunderdragon2]

If Arthas is redeemed I might just quit WoW. Why can’t we just have well written, evil characters?

i doubt he will be redeemed it's just that judgement wasn't passed on his his soul it's not how the shadowlands works, its the same with heaven and hell here if you were sent down to hell without ALL if your deeds been judged then its wrong, i still think he will most likely be sent back to the maw but its till possible that there's a slight chance that he's redeemable also the arbiter might just pardon him due to being wrongfully being sent down there without fair judgement in the 1st pace.

now i'm by no means trying to determine his fate myself that that's the way the afterlife is meant to work

[Gorsameth]

There is also the end of the Lich King novel where Arthus gets rid of Ner'zul in his mind and then stamps out his own humanity for good measure.

Arthas actively chose to be the Lich King.

[dwarven]

Blizzard writing is amongst the worst in video games at the moment

The entire story of SL is the low point of wows story telling history.

Wod feels like citizen Kane writing wise, compared to SL

WoD's leveling story was the best of any expansion. At least on Horde side.

I agree SL is turning out to be a steaming pile of dookie.

[thunderdragon2]

There is also the end of the Lich King novel where Arthus gets rid of Ner'zul in his mind and then stamps out his own humanity for good measure.

Arthas actively chose to be the Lich King.

that may be true but that still doesn't mean he disserves to be tossed into the maw without going through due process which means every thing he did pre becoming lich king and post becoming lich king needs to be weighed up equally.

[Kyphael]

Not every story needs a neat and happy ending.

The fact they are still reaching back to WC 3 for story instead of creating their own story legacy is just sad.

In an MMO it does. There hasn't been a WoW expansion that hasn't had a happy ending yet. They don't get the kind of creative freedom they had with RTS games where they could tell real compelling stories when they have to cater to millions who believe their character is the hero of the story.

[McNeil]

Arthas story will probably be the central point in either 9.2 or 9.3, who will probably play a role with Anduin aswell. I could see Arthas trying to redeem himself by saving Anduin and the Arbiter will send him from Revendreth to Bastion or another realm.

[Rendark]

Arthas already had his moment at the end of wrath. In wrath we learn there is a good part somewhere in the Lich King but it's to late. The "Father is it over?" was perfect. They really don't need to do any more then that.

[Sondrelk]

Arthas already had his moment at the end of wrath. In wrath we learn there is a good part somewhere in the Lich King but it's to late. The "Father is it over?" was perfect. They really don't need to do any more then that.

Too late for that. Blizzard showed their hand too early by having Uther throw Arthas into the Maw. Now there is no reasonable way for the story to function without at least bringing him to the Arbiter.

[Rendark]

Too late for that. Blizzard showed their hand too early by having Uther throw Arthas into the Maw. Now there is no reasonable way for the story to function without at least bringing him to the Arbiter.

Sad but true. I guess no one's ever really gone.

[Gorsameth]

In an MMO it does. There hasn't been a WoW expansion that hasn't had a happy ending yet. They don't get the kind of creative freedom they had with RTS games where they could tell real compelling stories when they have to cater to millions who believe their character is the hero of the story.

Arthas story should have ended in WotLK. that was a fine end.

Digging up his decomposing body just to to drag it through another ham-fisted redemption arc is a massive warning sign that Blizzard's new writers are unable to write their own characters who can carry a story.

[Maljinwo]

In case of emergency, break the Arthas glass

[aeir]

After seeing the Uther cinematic story thing I thought we'd reach a point in the expansion, where Arthas will become the new jailer or some shit like that. Arthas is the most beloved villain in Warcraft, so rehashing him like they did with prior ones wouldn't really surprise me - because, Blizzard writing.

I can already imagine it - last cinematic of the expansion. Arthas kills the Jailer, takes his powazzz and he's like SEE YOU IN THE VOID LADS.

[Logwyn]

When is 9.1 coming out?

[Hibiki]

When is 9.1 coming out?

December 2021

[dwarven]

Imagine Arthas gets redeemed into a holy warrior of the light once again and is sent back to Azeroth to live out his days in Stormwind keep as a questgiving NPC that was relevant to the ending of one expansion, and players come by all the time and do /kiss and /fart on him until the end of his days.

Father is it over? No my son, Blizzard may need you for another cash grab at some arbitrary time in the future.

[Kokolums]

that may be true but that still doesn't mean he disserves to be tossed into the maw without going through due process which means every thing he did pre becoming lich king and post becoming lich king needs to be weighed up equally.

The way the Shadowlands are constructed, you do not *deserve* anything. By default, everyone goes to the Maw. Some entity or entities overlayed a system of judgement on it - a system that can be corrupted or destroyed and you have no say in its destruction.