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  1. #1

    Question Why are the night elves using the ancient Kaldorei Empire banner of the Highborne?

    The night elves right now are apparently abandoning their Teldrassil banner symbol - and instead using the older Kaldorei Empire banner of Suramar, apparently some kind of ancient Highborne banner, which is used all over Suramar and perhaps other settlements?

    In a Nazmir world quest on the Horde side, I even took a screenshot - these banners were over the night elf encampment - all over the Mangrove Shore next to the ancients - so it is indeed very interesting and somewhat surprising, from a certain perspective. And it also appeared next to the Forsaken banner in the Caverns of Time anniversary celebration last year, without any clear explanation:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...619_204046.jpg



    Isn't this the nightborne banner? Didn't Thalyssra's people proudly use these banners - all over their city and the surrounding regions? So why are the night elves of Teldrassil, who were away from Suramar for ten thousand years, using these banners now - and after Thalyssra and her people joined the Horde? Why are they using the Kaldorei Empire banner, when most of their population (including presumably most of the Shen'dralar) is gone, and they have very little hope of re-establishing any kind of "empire" today?
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2021-05-28 at 01:10 PM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  2. #2
    It's the symbol of the Ancient Kaldorei.
    Last edited by shoc; 2021-05-28 at 12:05 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The night elves right now are apparently abandoning their Teldrassil banner symbol - and instead using the older Kaldorei Empire banner of Suramar, apparently some kind of ancient Highborne banner, which is used all over Suramar and perhaps other settlements?

    In a Nazmir world quest on the Horde side, I even took a screenshot - these banners were over the night elf encampment - all over the Mangrove Shore next to the ancients - so it is indeed very interesting and somewhat surprising, from a certain perspective. And it also appeared next to the Forsaken banner in the Caverns of Time anniversary celebration last year, without any clear explanation:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...619_204046.jpg

    Isn't this the nightborne banner? Didn't Thalyssra's people proudly use these banners - all over their city and the surrounding regions? So why are the night elves of Teldrassil, who were away from Suramar for ten thousand years, using these banners now - and after Thalyssra and her people joined the Horde? Why are they using the Kaldorei Empire banner, when most of their population (including presumably most of the Shen'dralar) is gone, and they have very little hope of re-establishing any kind of "empire" today?
    It is also used in the new Warsong Gulch and in the Darkshore warfront. It is also in the temple of Elune in Val'Sharah. It is probably the Symbol of the Night Elfs even before it was an empire. Azsharas Highborne actually use a different one also the Shen'dralar have a different banner.

    I think the banner is pretty neat, the moon is in the center and its pretty clean. They should make it as the new racial tabard (the tree is burned down anyways)
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-05-27 at 11:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Horde gets entire zone, "Suck it, Alliance!"

    Alliance uses "Horde" banner, "OMG using Horde banner, discuss!"

    Yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    It is also used in the new Warsong Gulch and in the Darkshore warfront. It is also in the temple of Elune in Val'Sharah. It is probably the Symbol of the Night Elfs even before it was an empire. Azsharas Highborne actually use a different one also the Shen'dralar have a different banner.

    I think the banner is pretty neat, the moon is in the center and its pretty clean. They should make it as the new racial tabard (the tree is burned down anyways)
    The tree on the Darnassus-Banner is actually Nordrassil and not Teldrassil, that's why the druids have their own colouration of this as well.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The night elves right now are apparently abandoning their Teldrassil banner symbol - and instead using the older Kaldorei Empire banner of Suramar, apparently some kind of ancient Highborne banner, which is used all over Suramar and perhaps other settlements?

    In a Nazmir world quest on the Horde side, I even took a screenshot - these banners were over the night elf encampment - all over the Mangrove Shore next to the ancients - so it is indeed very interesting and somewhat surprising, from a certain perspective. And it also appeared next to the Forsaken banner in the Caverns of Time anniversary celebration last year, without any clear explanation:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...619_204046.jpg

    Isn't this the nightborne banner? Didn't Thalyssra's people proudly use these banners - all over their city and the surrounding regions? So why are the night elves of Teldrassil, who were away from Suramar for ten thousand years, using these banners now - and after Thalyssra and her people joined the Horde? Why are they using the Kaldorei Empire banner, when most of their population (including presumably most of the Shen'dralar) is gone, and they have very little hope of re-establishing any kind of "empire" today?
    You'd probably find that no where in game or in Warcraft lore or blizzard said this banner was exclusively Highborne. So why would people conclude that? Could the banner simply be that of the kaldorei ? Which is why you see it used in Highborne and non-Highborne night elves are like? Yet because this happens some fans have questioned it rather than counted it as evidence of what it says.

    Sadly, people don't understand night elves and Highborne, they think of them as two separate nations and peoples, even species.. They are not. As such some get confused as to why this happens and call blizzard sloppy or idiots, not ever bothering to actually think a little bit more or do some investigating. Perhaps it's meant to tell us something that might not be immediately obvious to all.

    The banner is the banner of the kaldorei... whether you're Highborne or not. The night elves weren't separated into two empires or two civilizations. It was one, and it had a banner. Different houses and orders would have their own individual banners too, but that banner is not exclusive Highborne, it is kaldorei of which the Highborne are part of.

    This is why you see the banner in
    1. Suramar
    2. Azsuna
    3. Val'sharah
    4. Darkshore
    5. Hyjal and everywhere, the kaldorei as a nation

    This becomes confusing by the people who love to to deny that Highborne and night elves have anything to do with each other, or that Nightborne are not a unique group of kaldorei civilization based elves. It's from the same civilization, they can't grasp the concept that it was night elves who are the Nightborne, night elves who are the Highborne, and night elves who become high elves.

    it's not that they cannot grasp, it's that they don't want to, the forum quickly descended into a factional fight over the Nightborne, you would have noticed that blood elf horde supporters try in many of their posts to completely disconnect the Nightborne from the night elves, in order to force the perception that the night elf sub-race belonged with the horde (and after they got it, had gone toe the right place).

    Believe you me, if we didn't have this faction nonsense, that confusion and those pointless arguments would not exist. They are ENTIRELY factionally motivated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Perhaps the confusion is that high elves were Highborne that became their own race, but many of those fans, didn't follow or accept the other lore that showed night elf Highborne still existed, night elf Highborne that became naga or satyr.

    It's a blood elf centric view, because Highborne were revealed with the night elf story, at the same time High elves were revealed to have been Highborne, so were satyr and Naga and the Dire Maul Shen'dralar - yet because of their blood elf centric view, get confused. It also is perhaps of some of the Warcraft rpg lore, that was phrased in a way that made you think they were a different species and the high elves were the only Highborne stock that remained elven.

    I know that until 7.0 most blood elf fans dissociated with their race's Highborne past, as the name is not used to refer to the high elves, but their night elven predecessors. You don't call high elves Highborne, but high elves it is night elves of the caste and Nightborne you call Highborne - this is because the game shows you this, only Night elves and Nightborne have the designation Highborne, but High elves, Naga and Satyr have been mentioned because of their Highborne roots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    It is also used in the new Warsong Gulch and in the Darkshore warfront. It is also in the temple of Elune in Val'Sharah. It is probably the Symbol of the Night Elfs even before it was an empire. Azsharas Highborne actually use a different one also the Shen'dralar have a different banner.

    I think the banner is pretty neat, the moon is in the center and its pretty clean. They should make it as the new racial tabard (the tree is burned down anyways)
    so do the Darnassians, and the druids too.

    But that symbol is used for all kaldorei both pre-sundering and post.

    The thing is there is no separation between long vigil and pre-sundering kaldorei as race. Whether they all turned to druidism (this nature love and practice has been there for the start) or rather they remained arcane focused (the arcane focus has been there too from the start and still is), or whether it's Elune regardless if it's a priesthood in an arcane civilization or a rural forested one. While different night elves follow different path, people I think over exaggerate the pre-sundering and post sundering group.

    The post sundering do not deny who they are, they don't deny or hate the pre-sundering era. They grieve and mourn what was lost due to arrogance and the legion, not what was created, not what was good... if they hated it so much it wouldn't hurt so much nor would they be so dedicated to their long vigil task.

    I really try hard for people to see things a bit zoomed out, because sometimes too focused on the immediate detail of what you see in game, and repetitive play can cause you to be blind to important detail that frames it. Because it is not mentioned in the standard play, so their repetitive play reinforces the event information, but the information that informs and puts those events you play in correct perspective are forgotten because they are in other sources.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Horde gets entire zone, "Suck it, Alliance!"

    Alliance uses "Horde" banner, "OMG using Horde banner, discuss!"

    Yeah.
    I like you! hehe, I also notice the all things arcane of the night elves is "horde" stuff.. because the alliance elves should be different, so these parts of the night elves are now "horde".. the banner is "horde", why are the alliance using it?

    The faction focus is ridiculous in the fans mind, things that should be seen outside the context of faction aren't seen so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Plehnard View Post
    The tree on the Darnassus-Banner is actually Nordrassil and not Teldrassil, that's why the druids have their own colouration of this as well.
    No, no, that banner is the night elf banner is all night elf banner, Blizz sloppy and make mistake by putting Highborne banner with night elf. Highborne == horde, . Night elf are savage tree elf people. The banner is horde Highborne banner.

    /end sarcasm

    To these players, it is impossible that night elves in Darkshore or Kalimdor could use the same banner in Suramar, "because Suramar and the Nightborne have nothing to do with the night elves", "nor do the Highborne, totally different culture, different species, different race" etc. "Silly blizz, they don't even know their own lore"
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-05-28 at 07:04 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You'd probably find that no one said this banner was exclusively Highborne. So why would people conclude that? Could the banner simply be that of the kaldorei ? Which is why you see it used in Highborne and non-Highborne night elves are like?

    Sadly, people don't understand night elves and Highborne, they think of them as two separate nations and peoples, even species.. They are not. As such some get confused as to why this happens and call blizzard sloppy or idiots, not ever bothering to actually think a little bit more or do some investigating. Perhaps it's meant to tell us something that might not be immediately obvious to all.

    The banner is the banner of the kaldorei... whether you're Highborne or not. The night elves weren't separated into two empires or two civilizations. It was one, and it had a banner. Different houses and orders would have their own individual banners too, but that banner is not exclusive Highborne, it is kaldorei of which the Highborne are part of.

    This is why you see the banner in
    1. Suramar
    2. Azsuna
    3. Val'sharah
    4. Darkshore
    5. Hyjal and everywhere, the kaldorei as a nation

    This becomes confusing by the people who love to to deny that Highborne and night elves have anything to do with each other, or that Nightborne are not a unique group of kaldorei civilization based elves. It's from the same civilization, they can't grasp the concept that it was night elves who are the Nightborne, night elves who are the Highborne, and night elves who become high elves.

    it's not that they cannot grasp, it's that they don't want to, the forum quickly descended into a factional fight over the Nightborne, you would have noticed that blood elf horde supporters try in many of their posts to completely disconnect the Nightborne from the night elves, in order to force the perception that the night elf sub-race belonged with the horde (and after they got it, had gone toe the right place).

    Believe you me, if we didn't have this faction nonsense, that confusion and those pointless arguments would not exist. They are ENTIRELY factionally motivated.

    The banner was indeed Highborne - perhaps not exclusively Highborne, but predominantly Highborne - in its origins and heritage. I've done some serious contemplation, some research, and there are several likely explanations for this change:

    1. The Shen'dralar were instrumental to the Teldrassil evacuation (the last portal was maintained by several mage trainers) - the surviving night elves seek to honor their efforts on their people's behalf - even if most of the Shen'dralar are probably dead.

    2. Farondis and Kur'talos also use this banner in the Crumbled Palace and Black Rook Hold (in Azsuna and Val'sharah), so it is not necessarily exclusive to Suramar City or Elisande's people; perhaps there are other conclusions that could be drawn from such a connection, politically, or...perhaps not.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/82...deca229163.jpg


    3. Tyrande performed the Night Warrior ritual at Bashal'Aran (one of the oldest Highborne settlements which the night elves have reclaimed), which is now their new base of operations in Darkshore; perhaps there is some connection. Maiev and Jarod are commanders there - perhaps they use the banner out of sentiment and nostalgia to their ancestors; especially after their experiences in Val'sharah encountering the ghosts of their former friends.

    4. The night elves wish to avenge more than Teldrassil; they wish to avenge their entire race - as their ancestors would have done in the distant past; perhaps Teldrassil's banner is a reminder of their losses, and they wish to largely abandon it out of respect for their dead (like the blood elves changing their quel'dorei banner), not unlike the humans using Lordaeron's symbol despite the kingdom belonging today largely to the Forsaken.

    But there are other things that make little sense and logic. Why does the Nightsong reference Zin-Azshari - named after widely despised Queen Azshara, Tyrande's most hated enemy - why not sing a song to Teldrassil and Darnassus, or perhaps Ashenvale and Kalimdor the continent as a whole, in line with their nature-reverence theme? Why do the kaldorei seek to gain a foothold in Azshara - when it was but a remnant of the Highborne capital of the ancient empire - a reminder of the Sundering and their controversial past?

    Crown of the heavens
    Glory of Azshara
    Children of noble birth
    Crown of the heavens
    Elune be with you
    Elune be with you
    Crown of the heavens
    Elune
    Glory of Azshara
    Glory of Azshara
    Be with you.

    I'm exaggerating a bit here, but this scenario seems possible:

    <Tyrande walks up to the few surviving night elves at Darkshore after Teldrassil.>

    "Those fools from Suramar will regret their actions, in joining the Banshee. Thalyssra may think herself the victors, but WE will now have the final laugh. Let this final link between our two communities die - just as this banner dies, here and now!"

    <Her lips curling in a sneer, Tyrande Whisperwind forcefully tosses the Kaldorei Empire banner into the bonfire; some of the night elves around her cheer and celebrate as the flag goes up in flames, while others remain impassive. Tyrande smiles ever so faintly, turning her back to the burning flag with the same harsh expression on her ancient face that appeared when she rejected Thalyssra in her home city Suramar long ago. From the shadows, Malfurion Stormrage, along with Shandris Feathermoon and Jarod Shadowsong next to him, watches her silently, saying nothing and standing there as still as a statue.>
    I don't really think the scenario would necessarily occur, but it is not impossible. Certainly, Tyrande is sometimes an easily angered person - that was why she was so obstinate in reforming society after the Sundering; Varian told her to have a little patience, remember? And she was very harsh to Anduin - she moved for immediate action during the War of the Thorns - and afterwards, before the Battle of Darkshore. One wonders what a conversation between Tyrande and Thalyssra today would end - would they try to make amends, or would Tyrande lose control like before, and simply kill Thalyssra, Valtrois and Oculeth upon sight?

    Mistake me not, it is a beautiful and ornate banner - incredibly ancient and powerful simultaneously, invoking an unimaginably rich and glorious past - but BOTH night elf players and nightborne players can relate to it simultaneously, does the shal'dorei not also make use of the banner even today? The only problem is - and some nightborne players were a bit upset or at least confused by this particularly - is that it could be construed as appropriation, like Tyrande suddenly marching into Suramar after Teldrassil was destroyed and declaring that everything there belongs to the night elves simply because she was born there 10,000-15,000 years ago.

    For most Horde players at the very least, it is hard to ignore, the night elves not using this banner for ten thousand years, and then suddenly using it once again without clear explanation to either side. Would not most blood elves be understandably upset, if Alleria began suddenly using the Icon of Blood as her racial symbol despite siding with the Alliance, just because most void elves were "formerly" from Silvermoon, or if most high elves began using their night elf ancestral symbols in their settlements?

    P.S. Does this banner really appear on Mount Hyjal? I thought they did not update Nordrassil?
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2021-05-29 at 10:34 PM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  8. #8
    @OwenBurton

    The banner is night elven. It is the banner used in the pre sundering civilisation which is why it is seen amongst Highborne groups.

    Banners aren’t predominantly one group or another. They are representations of a state or people, not one moreso than another. It either is or isn’t. It isn’t 75% Highborne and 25% nightbelf.

    Banners don’t work like that.

    It’s the banner of the Kaldorei. The druids have one, various houses like Thalyssra’s have their own. The Shen’dralar would have a unique Eldre’thalas banner as will the Sinstrider night elves which would become the high elf banner.

    These aren’t replacement to the main banners. The House of Windsor (Britain’s ruling house) has its own banner. It doesn’t replace the England flag which doesn’t replace the U.K. flag, all 3 are perfectly valid for what they represent.


    This is why you can see that banner for the Kaldorei and see others like the tree and stars one of Nordrassil. It’s not more Highborne than night elf or anything like that.

    I don’t think it’s even technically correct to distinguish them like that

  9. #9


    This is the Suramar banner, on account of recent events. Not the same.

    I don't blame them for removing the tree.

    The only other reference to your symbol I could find is the archeology icon.



    For the night elves.


    For referrence, Darnassus Banner from Wotlk:

    Last edited by Powerogue; 2021-05-29 at 03:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  10. #10
    The banner you linked for Suramar is Thalyssra’s house banner, not the city's.

    The symbol on the coin is the symbol on the Kaldorei banner.

    The Darnassus banner is exactly that, the banner for the Darnassus faction. Other night elf groups and factions all have their own, but there is a banner that relates to all Kaldorei, incl nightborne. I don't think Nightborne were originally written to be separate from their pre-sundering kaldorei culture and civilization. I think they were written to be the present day version of that, not some thing entirely new.. it just so happens that blizzard loves giving new models for races with every expansion - so they got one for a story that warranted it. I'm now heavily leaning towards the assertion that Nightborne as they are were not meant to continue, they were either supposed to be completely destroyed if they supported Elisande or transformed back to Night elves by the Arcan'dor as Ravenmoon keeps insisting.

    Too much in the story, the outset, the way it's drawn and written is too faithful to the kaldorei to be otherwise.

    • If they wanted the Nightborne to be a totally separate elven group linked to the blood elves above all, why use a night elf story for it? And one so core to the night elves?
    • Why present Suramar as a pre-sundering kaldorei city not in ruins, i.e. pristine to show how they live.. why not choose another story and another circumstance?
    • why choose kaldorei banners, why keep the kaldorei symbols throughout the city and show them to have moved on?
    • why use cats like the kaldorei and hippogriffs - they could have moved on to other animals and symbols.
    • Why use a tree and nature combined with the arcane to be their salvation instead of something closer to the blood elves?
    • Why use Farodin, invent the story of the Valewalkers, why link the Moonguard and Val'sharah refugees all in them.
    • Why do no blood elves show up in 7.0 at all? There is no support or collaboration with blood elves and nightborne before 7.1, then all of a sudden it jumps well of the scale.
    • In fact the Reliquary in 7.0 are actually spying and stealing from Suramar hoping to claim night elven secrets for the blood elves in archaeology quests, they're not trying to befriend them or be sympathetic, but the tone totally shifts in the content that comes after, i.e. 7.1
    • Why is the Arcan'dor written to reverse the curse of the Nightborne, but the nightborne end up losing the curse bit, but somehow keep their appearance - I suspect the original plan was that the fruit turned them back to night elves, but popular demand for them playable as a different race, changed it.


    I'm just saying, if they were really planned to be unrelated to the Kaldorei, they'd have nowhere near this amount of cross over. When they did the high elf link to the night elves, the high elves are completely in so many ways cut off from the night elves. and they just had a tough journey of a few years, yet Suramar is cut off from the rest of the night elves, and still remains so kaldorei in it's nature and culture - tells me that it wasn't originally meant to be different - and I'm beginning to believe Ravenmoon on this one. Sorry guys.

    You might be able to explain a few away, but it's too much, while there could be many reasons, it just seems far more likely that all of this was created entirely a night elf thing, and changed later due to popular demand, which is probably why the alliance fans got upset.

    Please I'm not saying the change isn't believable, it is, but it's clear this is not what they were originally intended for. It won't change anything either, so I'm not trying to advocate a change at all - but I think when you consider the flag, and then so much in the quest and lore, their great kaldorei pride of their heritage in the 7.0 quests is in stark contrast to the Thalassian hate for all things kaldorei. The addiction of the blood elves is modelled after the night elves, so why it appears the Nightborne addiction is a blood elf counterpart, it's actually the story of the original night elf addiction, but only told now, which is why we got confused thinking it was blood elf. The fact that it was the inverse of the wretched indicates this somewhat


    Why does Thalyssra sound so much like WotA Tyrande? And very kaldorei resistance in her tone and approach? And let's be really honest, they look far more like a night elf variation than they do a blood elf variation. They're just as ugly, purple, tall, long lived, and ears are closer to night elf than blood elf

    But for the banner, I don’t see how this is confusing. It’s the ancient Kaldorei banner. All Kaldorei related to it have a right to use it. It’s all over Suramar and other places that deal with night elves. It just shows they aren't as separate as many had wanted them to be or thought they were.

    Anyway, they always reeked of kaldorei to me, I read the war of the ancients, and it was clearly kaldorei pre-sundering civilization i was seeing. Maybe if Dire Maul had shown this a lot better, people wouldn't be so confused.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-05-29 at 04:49 PM.

  11. #11
    Reworked warsong gulch 8.1



    Temple of Elune, Val'shara

  12. #12
    @Beloren

    I don't think blizzard meant the Nightborne or Suramar to have anything to do with the blood elves or the horde originally. I don't think they wrote the expansion thinking -- oh, Azsuna and Val'sharah will be alliance, so Suramar and Highmountain would be horde. Nah, I think it was the first time an expansion had been heavily alliance focused instead of horde, and they were fine with it, as they wanted the night elves to be the backdrop of the story involving the Legion since the race was introduced as the great arch nemesis of the Legion on Azeroth.


    it is possible that the next expansion would have been Argus, but BFA won and they decided to instead give Argus as a patch - i don't know. night elves had had no expansion focus, that really told the playing population their original story or exposed the full breadth of their history.. unless you read WotA trilogy, you'd probably think night elves were all druids and huntress forest types, even their connection to demon hunters was a bit vague and mysterious - by in game material only.


    I think they fully intended it to be a night elf expansion, and the reason we get Highmountain and Stormheim, was because they struggled to fill 5 zones with night elf history.. Suramar covers the origin of the night elf heroes, Azsuna the Highborne, Val'Sharah the druids.. they didn't need that much space for Blackrook hold so lopped it in with Val'Sharah zone instead of making Highmountain dedicated to it.


    They put the Warden base since we hadn't seen much of them since Wc3 on an Azsuna island, and the temple of Elune, the big one on the broken shore. T hey then changed the broken shore additionally to feel less night elven ruins (presumably because Azsuna is full of that and every Broken isle zone has night elf ruins somewhere, Suramar too was totally night elven, from pristine city to ruined towns and outer cities too, somebody wanted more focus on the legion, which made sense, considering 2 zones are already full of ruins, it's probably why Thal'dranath was scrapped, which is a shame because it means they'd have had to think of something a bit more interesting for night elves.


    But they could already cover the Highborne, the pre-sundering civilization, the priesthood history, the druid history, the wardens and the demon hunters in 4 zones... so Highmountain and Stormheim provided something different. They didn't want Elf hating fans to have nothing interesting to do.

    All the points you make are spot on.

    If they wanted the Nightborne to be a new separate elf race, they didn't have to keep them so close to night elves, and if it was meant to be blood elf linked, they could have used the story of high elves who fled, and built their own city - they didn't have to use Suramar, and got into their own trouble.

    They could have had the blood elves down there from the start approaching these new elves and connecting with them. They could have also shown phoenixes, and hawks, and a link to these thing in the night elf past that was clearly exclusively high elf linked - i.e. something new, but instead of doing something new, they went fully into the kaldorei past as seen in the WotA trilogy and WC3, druids, priests, Highborne, kaldorei city and civilization, Moonguard, demon hunters, warden, all of these are entirely kaldorei - there is nothing that is exclusive to the high elves that shows up here as having its roots in their night elven past... and it wouldn't have been hard to do that, they focused entirely on kaldorei history and a kaldorei story and the flag is just one of many things that confirms this.

    it is telling why they did what they did, they wanted to show the night elven pre-sundering side, the pre Wc3 lore that shows the root of the original night elves. this shouldn't surprise anyone, they do exact same thing for the trolls in 8.x

    I'm just sick of people either trolling, lying or just wanting to push their blood elf tinted fantasy of the situation on something that is so very clearly night elven based - in the same manipulative vein those same fans try to influence the community to get what they want.. so they try to muffle the voice of any one that speaks contrary, they don't care if they're outright lying, or how many links and posts the person puts hat proves them write, they hound the forums and just keep repeating their misinformed information long after people like me are not around to counter them and so sway the community into seeing or perceiving something that is completely false.

    Nightborne were not created to tell a blood elf story or for the blood elves, they got changed to join the blood elves because players wanted them playable and the horde fanbase was louder - well ofc it was, the hardcore fanbase has bene heavily horde since well before Legion thanks to the heavy horde focus, so their voices shout louder, and blizzard, also full of horde supporters at the senior echelons were also more than happy to give it them. Blizzard play favourites and have biases on their own works, they like certain races over others, and classes over others too, which is why they've struggled so hard with balance. It took 3 expansions to finally allow all classes to be equal in power. 7 for us to finally see the alliance dominant in an expansion theme, even if it was unwritten by the Nightborne going horde.. but it shows, there is bias there. While it isn't every senior developer, i believe most that count have their favourites... nearly all of them joined the project after it had gone popular, so came with their favourites,

    A true developer has no one favourite race, faction or class. however, they are 100% entitled to have favourites.. they are human.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The banner was indeed Highborne - perhaps not exclusively Highborne, but predominantly Highborne - in its origins and heritage. I've done some serious contemplation, some research, and there are several likely explanations for this change:

    1. The Shen'dralar were instrumental to the Teldrassil evacuation (the last portal was maintained by several mage trainers) - the surviving night elves seek to honor their efforts on their people's behalf - even if most of the Shen'dralar are probably dead.

    2. Farondis and Kur'talos also use this banner in the Black Rook Hold and Crumbled Palace (in Azsuna and Val'sharah), so it is not necessarily exclusive to Suramar City or Elisande's people; perhaps there are other conclusions that could be drawn, or...perhaps not.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/82...deca229163.jpg

    3. Tyrande performed the Night Warrior ritual at Bashal'Aran (one of the oldest Highborne settlements which the night elves have reclaimed), which is now their new base of operations in Darkshore; perhaps there is some connection. Maiev and Jarod are commanders there - perhaps they use the banner out of sentiment and nostalgia to their ancestors; especially after their experiences in Val'sharah encountering the ghosts of their former friends.

    4. The night elves wish to avenge more than Teldrassil; they wish to avenge their entire race - as their ancestors would have done in the distant past; perhaps Teldrassil's banner is a reminder of their losses, and they wish to largely abandon it out of respect for their dead (like the blood elves changing their quel'dorei banner), not unlike the humans using Lordaeron's symbol despite the kingdom belonging today largely to the Forsaken.

    But there are other things that make little sense and logic. Why does the Nightsong reference Zin-Azshari - named after widely despised Queen Azshara, Tyrande's most hated enemy - why not sing a song to Teldrassil and Darnassus, or perhaps Ashenvale and Kalimdor the continent as a whole, in line with their nature-reverence theme? Why do the kaldorei seek to gain a foothold in Azshara - when it was but a remnant of the Highborne capital of the ancient empire - a reminder of the Sundering and their controversial past?

    Crown of the heavens
    Glory of Azshara
    Children of noble birth
    Crown of the heavens
    Elune be with you
    Elune be with you
    Crown of the heavens
    Elune
    Glory of Azshara
    Glory of Azshara
    Be with you.

    I'm exaggerating a bit here, but this scenario seems possible:



    I don't really think the scenario would necessarily occur, but it is not impossible. Certainly, Tyrande is sometimes an easily angered person - that was why she was so obstinate in reforming society after the Sundering; Varian told her to have a little patience, remember? And she was very harsh to Anduin - she moved for immediate action during the War of the Thorns - and afterwards, before the Battle of Darkshore. One wonders what a conversation between Tyrande and Thalyssra today would end - would they try to make amends, or would Tyrande lose control like before, and simply kill Thalyssra, Valtrois and Oculeth upon sight?

    Mistake me not, it is a beautiful and ornate banner - incredibly ancient and powerful simultaneously, invoking an unimaginably rich and glorious past - but BOTH night elf players and nightborne players can relate to it simultaneously, does the shal'dorei not also make use of the banner even today? The only problem is - and some nightborne players were a bit upset or at least confused by this particularly - is that it could be construed as appropriation, like Tyrande suddenly marching into Suramar after Teldrassil was destroyed and declaring that everything there belongs to the night elves simply because she was born there 10,000-15,000 years ago.

    For most Horde players at the very least, it is hard to ignore, the night elves not using this banner for ten thousand years, and then suddenly using it once again without clear explanation to either side. Would not most blood elves be understandably upset, if Alleria began suddenly using the Icon of Blood as her racial symbol despite siding with the Alliance, just because most void elves were "formerly" from Silvermoon, or if most high elves began using their night elf ancestral symbols in their settlements?

    P.S. Does this banner really appear on Mount Hyjal? I thought they did not update Nordrassil?
    I think the change is just an update rather than an activity change. Just like the ruins and architecture were upgraded and now long different with hints of the old. Look at the new temple of Elune compared to the hold, look at the new ruins compared tot he old ones in classic and cataclysm. Then look at the designs for Suramar and Zin'Azsahri - they never really showed the banner of the kaldorei.. but it's important for people to understand the night elves post sundering are not a different race, nor a sub-race, they are the same night elves of the pre-sundering civilization. Now some of the Highborne (not all) amongst them became other things - namely the high elf sub race, the naga race and the satyr demon race, but many remained kaldorei and ofc latest addition Nightborne which is clearly a sub-race.


    You see what you call Highborne, I call pre-sundering. I do make the distinction when people forget that not all civilization based night elves and arcane users were Highborne.. this is a misconception fuelled by the efforts of those who would have you believe that arcane magic, civilization has nothing to do with the night elves nay longer - and the reason they do this is because they don't want night elves having Suramar, or any nice looking city like Zin'Azshari or being shown to be as good or woe betide, better than blood elves ---- because they're the enemies, and they should be the lesser in all these things - because their faction needs to be the best.. so they'll happily ignore the lore, argue for night elves to only represent the bits they don't like (which is usually the rural, forest bits) while the faction they're on ad like gets all the best things they like. Unshared.


    But the fact of the situation is that all night elves were pre-sundering, they weren't two separate races or issues, appreciate sometimes blizzard using the term Highborne as a calling card highlighting an aspect of the kaldorei, not as a different race meant to exclusively refer to the blood elves. Afterall the blood elves were the smallest group of Highborne. Think about it

    1. The naga were basically what became of most of the palace elves
    2. The Satyr were a good portion of them
    3. The Sunstrider were a relatively small group
    4. The Shen'dralar were a city full of Highborne - it was a full Highborne city
    5. Suramar was a city of all castes, however it is mostly Suramar Highborne that stayed behind - not only them, but most of their number -

    All of these would have been larger than the Sunstriders. maybe not 3,000 years later when they are exiled, and later grow into sub-race Elven nation of their own right.

    that banner would have been used in all night elves, city and rural alike, across all cities, villages provinces, whether Highborne dominated, mixed or not.

    Sadly most people here don't really think much to figure out the truth, maybe it's because they don't love the content that much or don't care, or only care for one thing. There is nothing that compels them to be thorough or honest, so they'll just say anything they want, true or false, as long as it pleases them.

    The Highborne were the highest caste, not the only night elves, and didn't do everything either, but as the leaders and rules, they drove a lot of the progress made. All night elves loved their civilization and their Queen, and it's only when the Highborne leaders started getting super arrogant and looking down on the others did resentment for them start. there wasn't resentment for the wonders of magic, the arcane, the world, the civilization etc, none of those things. People who think the night elves hated their cities and their magic haven't thought it through. The legion invasion was horrific because it destroyed their cities and civilization, all the things that were good, they were horrified at what the Highborne who invited these would do, that they could get so corrupt to do something that was the anti-thesis of everything they stood for, but WotA sheds some insights as to why Queen Azshara went along with it, and arcane addiction is used as the likely reason they lost their sensibilities and probably why it was more feared amongst the survivors

    But the lore makes it very clear, it was banned not for addiction, but to prevent the Legion from returning. This is why civilization and the practice of magic is given up. The arcane itself isn't given up.. how could it be, they are protecting a well that nourishes a world tree and is the only source of power capable of bringing the legion back, they create many Moonwells all around the place, brimming with arcane energy they base the natural world in because the arcane and nature compliment each other, and that theme is shown in Suramar too as it becomes the salvation of the Nightborne.


    What is hard to see is how connected the kaldorei are, because people love to see them as so separate, but the reason they do is because they don't favour their lore or history, which is why they find it hard to imagine a banner would be shared between the Nightborne, and kaldorei - that is until you delve into what the Nightborne really are and the Highborne and the kaldorei - they're all from the same vein - it's all night elf stuff. night elf stuff isn't just forest and flowers, or angry macho women, it's also wizards and a golden age super magical society, advanced beyond even today's standards.. this is what the lore says, and this is what it shows when it reveals a pristine night elf pre-sundering city like Suramar still around today.


    It isn't for people to ignore that lore and pretend as if it's got nothing to do with night elves, because they look different from them a little or because they are reminded of the blood elves from that. The lore clearly draws the parallels, and shows you yes, you can see the blood elves in this but that's because the blood elves get this from the night elves, and this is the part of the night elves they get it from, you don't just say it has nothing to do with night elves because the connection isn't visually obvious. so you're use to seeing night elves in primitive clothing (as you think) or humble garb, or in old ruins, so when they showy ou a non-ruined city and tell you it's history and it's culture as night elven, you cannot connect the two simply because the inhabitants have a very slightly different name (hmm -- night elf, and Nightborne.. any similarities? Hmm Highborne and nightborne... any similarities??) But because your view is so blood elf centric, you' quickly see a blood elf connection and don't want them to belong to anything else, so get irritated at people like me who remind you of all the bits of the lore you had to ignore to take the night elves out of the picture and have them totally unconnected to the Nightborne to work.

    And yet there is the flag, the moon symbols, the statues, even a much stronger nature presence than in the blood elves, there is off course the nocturnal state, the same age, the same height, the same skin colour (albeit different tones), the same city from history, unchanged, the same culture from the past also unchanged (the lore states this in -game) but it's text, so it's overlooked, but who am i kidding even the cinematic of Suramar explains it but they still don't listen to that, and that wasn't text... nope these guys just skip every lore content or half heartedly look at it, and see only what they want to see, rather than try to see what is actually there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You think that Farondis had such a great influence that the Darnassians changed the banner, or their connection to their ancestors and vengeance is bringing back their old banner. Or because it was held in Bashal'aran they used that banner instead.

    That is reaching, it's far simpler to assume it's the banner of the kaldorei which is why you see all kaldorei stuff have it, it marks Suramar, Azsuna, Val'sharah, Black Rook hold, Darkshore, Ashenvale, Warsong gulch etc as kaldorei. That simple.

    Suramar, the Highborne, black rook hold, etc are not non-kaldorei because they are seen for the first time in 7.0 or seem so different from what we have seen of the kaldorei in Kalimdor - sadly players playing this content over far too many times think that it speaks the loudest about hte race above what the lore mentions, and that just isn't true.

    The game content is just a snapshot in time along a journey , and never gets updated (unless they do a revamp ), so to assume the experience is the only informant and the rest of what you see or read isn't is an error.

    I guess this i why people find it so hard to believe Highborne or arcane stuff is connected to the night elves and blood elf fans reinforcing the error because they don't want night elves to have arcane magical or civilization stuff even if it's theirs by lore, makes the situation worse. New readers will come on and believe them because they are many voices, rather than look into it the lore itself. Or read at least my responses.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-05-29 at 05:18 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    @Beloren

    - - - Updated - - -

    You think that Farondis had such a great influence that the Darnassians changed the banner, or their connection to their ancestors and vengeance is bringing back their old banner. Or because it was held in Bashal'aran they used that banner instead.

    That is reaching, it's far simpler to assume it's the banner of the kaldorei which is why you see all kaldorei stuff have it, it marks Suramar, Azsuna, Val'sharah, Black Rook hold, Darkshore, Ashenvale, Warsong gulch etc as kaldorei. That simple.

    Suramar, the Highborne, black rook hold, etc are not non-kaldorei because they are seen for the first time in 7.0 or seem so different from what we have seen of the kaldorei in Kalimdor - sadly players playing this content over far too many times think that it speaks the loudest about hte race above what the lore mentions, and that just isn't true.

    The game content is just a snapshot in time along a journey , and never gets updated (unless they do a revamp ), so to assume the experience is the only informant and the rest of what you see or read isn't is an error.

    I guess this i why people find it so hard to believe Highborne or arcane stuff is connected to the night elves and blood elf fans reinforcing the error because they don't want night elves to have arcane magical or civilization stuff even if it's theirs by lore, makes the situation worse. New readers will come on and believe them because they are many voices, rather than look into it the lore itself. Or read at least my responses.

    I just felt it might be a bit confusing - for example, if a nightborne army uses the banner as their Suramar banner and the kaldorei army uses the banner as the Kaldorei Empire banner, while facing each other on the same battleground. Of course, again, this might be dependent on whether for example, Kur'talos and Farondis are becoming involved with the night elves - because they also use the Kaldorei Empire banner in their settlements. Or perhaps the nightborne have largely abandoned the banner after joining the Horde?

    I think it might also be because of the Night Warrior itself used to carve out the Kaldorei Empire - perhaps after taking back one of its most ancient Highborne settlements, Bashal'Aran, the night elves noticed some old banners there, and remembered their ancient heritage before the Sundering, and attempted to formally reclaim their heritage.

    Tyrande is such a complicated character - she CAN be tolerant sometimes (she welcomed a nation of humans into her capital, and accepted the Shen'dralar back into their society), but she can be impatient and judgmental at others. Perhaps she would simply toss the banner into the fire - but she didn't. Which makes this scenario also possible:

    <The night elves have recently won Darkshore, defeating their opponents. Very tenderly and slowly, Tyrande Whisperwind picks up the old Kaldorei Empire banner at Bashal'Aran, after reclaiming it from the Horde. Malfurion Stormrage, Maiev Shadowsong, and Jarod Shadowsong all watch her, their eyes widening in recognition as Tyrande pensively gazes down at the banner.>

    "This was my city Suramar's banner...our old banner - that of the ancient empire, and our ancestors. We abandoned it long ago...perhaps that was a mistake after all. We are kaldorei, just as Azshara was, just as her followers were...and we should embrace our responsibility for our past, to reshape our future - we must accept ALL of our ancient heritage, both the good and the bad, to learn from our mistakes, and to grow from them. Perhaps we can forge a new meaning for this banner - not of Azshara's empire, but our own nation - the Kaldorei Nation. Perhaps we cannot reconcile with Suramar, with Thalyssra...but we can reconcile with at least our own past."

    <Her face growing steely and determined, Tyrande takes a deep breath, lifting up the Kaldorei Empire banner and plants it firmly into the ground. Mordent Evenshade watches her with a faint smile, giving her the slightest of nods. Slowly, the other night elves begin to applaud, and Tyrande lifts her head high, gazing into the starry skies as if remembering something from long ago.>

    "Let there be no further distinction between Highborne and lowborne in our society! It is time to stop ignoring or running from our past, our heritage - and rather to embrace it as part of our identity entirely! If we are to heal, we must heal the old wounds within our society first and foremost! Without Mordent and his Highborne, even the few surviving night elves would not have been saved!

    This is no longer simply the ancient Highborne banner or that of the Kaldorei Empire - this is our banner. We were also of the Kaldorei Empire, born and raised there - and its legacy, both glorious and shameful, also belongs to us. Let us embrace that legacy fully starting today - all of us, a civilization and one nation united in this new beginning for our people. Let us remind our enemies that as long as the kaldorei stand together, we are unconquerable - the conquerors and the proud. Tor ilisar'thera'nal!"
    The night elves might be using the banner to remind their allies and enemies that they are not simply helpless victims - that they were once ruled the world's greatest empire and proudest civilization, that they survived 15,000 years of war and conflict, and they are willing to sacrifice everything to protect that history.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKS0Jq9U_E
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2021-05-29 at 10:10 PM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Tyrande is such a complicated character - she CAN be tolerant sometimes (she welcomed a nation of humans into her capital, and accepted the Shen'dralar back into their society), but she can be impatient and judgmental at others. Perhaps she would simply toss the banner into the fire - but she didn't. Which makes this scenario also
    She always acts in a way like its convenient for the story the writers want to tell



    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The night elves might be using the banner to remind their allies and enemies that they are not simply helpless victims - that they were once ruled the world's greatest empire and proudest civilization, that they survived 15,000 years of war and conflict, and they are willing to sacrifice everything to protect that history.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKS0Jq9U_E
    I really doubt that, Tyrande does not want to be called queen or anything like that. They have diverged the most from the old empire, they did not even have a major city for 10000 Years. In the best case, they are more like how the night elf society was in its early days when they just or before they figured out how to use the magic of the well of eternity.
    The achievements of the Kaldorei Empire is something that Nightborne are proud of or maybe even High Elfs and Shen'dralar but modern Night Elf aren't at all.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-05-29 at 10:31 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    I just felt it might be a bit confusing - for example, if a nightborne army uses the banner as their Suramar banner and the kaldorei army uses the banner as the Kaldorei Empire banner, while facing each other on the same battleground. Of course, again, this might be dependent on whether for example, Kur'talos and Farondis are becoming involved with the night elves - because they also use the Kaldorei Empire banner in their settlements. Or perhaps the nightborne have largely abandoned the banner after joining the Horde?
    I totally sympathise with you and many fans, don't mind my frustration, it's because I've had the argument many times and sometimes with the same people, trying to point out the observations I've made quite visible in the game and in the text of the lore.. sometimes I think they're just trolling me, since the evidence is pretty obvious, but you never can tell with some.

    In short the confusion is because people don't perceive the Nightborne being connected tot he night elves, and so the banner being there confuses them. Especially now the Nightborne have gone horde, they are more perceived as a separate race, though they are the same culture, same empire and the same stock as all the other night elves.. (it's the same individuals that get twisted by the Nightwell. They don't change their beliefs, way of life, city, nor culture. What you see in Suramar is EXACTLY how the Highborne side of the night elves lived. void of influence from the priesthood despite loving their prayers, and oblivious to the reverence of nature, despite the natural deep love of it. This is exactly how the city had become in Malfurion's earlier day, that made him a pariah for speaking about.


    this information is in the books. Fans don't read the books. Fans are very faction orientated to, so once you split a race between the factions their differences are blown up, to the extent that if you're not careful to keep in mind, you will start thinking they're completely different when they're not but the art teams altered styles, different presentation often makes it seem that way though in this case, the difference is more thematical and presentation wise, to give you something new to look at rather than a statement that his is a new group. they do enough in the visual art and lore of the quests and cut scenes to reveal how this is a pre-sundering kaldorei city and the same one you read in WotA that Tyrande, Malfurion Jarod and Maiev all come from.. this is why Suramar is chosen, because it already has a lot of night elf lore and is tied to a playable race that's fairly popular.

    The confusion is largely because blizzard hasn't been really good at showing night elf lore in game, majority of it was in books before Legion, so most players only had a part of the picture they came to believe as the whole. Presented with the much broader scope in legion, rather than accept what it showed, many just didn't connect it with the night elves (which I blame for the blood elf tinted glasses the community wears, simply because of the number of blood elf fans being much higher and therefore them seeing things through the perspective and baseline of the blood elves, rather than of the night elves, which is what you should be looking at night elves things through that lens instead.

    If you think about it, it is only confusing because Highborne, Nightborne are often considered so different from night elves. the only reason that is is because the part of the night elves shown in Suramar and visible Highborne as night elves were not seen much in the original game (in the original game you had to wait till level 60 and do Dire Maul to see them), yet they are a core part of the night elf story from the get go (WC3 manual, and war of the ancients trilogy, the first volume pre-dating wow itself - so it's not like Blizzard retconned the night elves.. in fact it's quite telling of all the night elf retcons, this wasn't touched at all, because it's part of their story.

    Seeing the Nightborne and kaldorei empire stuff for the first time and having so many blood elf fans often has forum users highlighting the connection between blood elves and Nightborne because they are judging entirely on what they see. Beautiful elven city with magic is first seen in the blood elves (well it was first in Darnassus, but that wasn't showcased like Silvermoon was), it was then seen again in Suramar, but because the denizens weren't the night elf models so use to, in their enthusiasm to claim all things arcane belonging to the blood elves, rather than appreciate the night elf story being told they were quick to make the blood elf connection and the night elf one left forgotten. All because the game doesn't show it, though the lore is full of mention for it.

    As such, it really surprises many, (you are not the first) to see similarities or consistencies across pre-sundering night elves (especially Highborne) and post sundering ones. Even when they are the same race. Night elves though in a city that doesn't look half a ruin is very rare, and the players don't envision them as advanced.. there are many reasons for that, even though the lore tells you they are from the most advanced magical civilization on Azeroth, and the long vigil didn't devolve them, make them stupid or make them less magical, they just put aside that way of life because the magic for it had to be banned to prevent the legion.

    Yet people would more easily believe the Highborne and night elves can't understand each other or are different species, and as such the banner being used amongst Highborne areas, Nightborne in Suramar and then very different appearing kaldorei of the forest, confuses them.

    But the lore tells you the night elves as a people continued after the sundering on mount Hyjal as night elves. the Shen'dralar didn't change their race or racial name from night elves, nor did the ones atop Hyjal. sure the society took a a drastic shift, but the racial identity remained unchanged.

    most people don't know how separate the lore presents the Priesthood led nation and the druids.. they think they were all hand in hand.. and new developers only reading gamepedia for reference make that mistake, the earlier lore has them completely segregated, the druids were totally off doing their own thing, in their own groups tending to nature. The priestesses and huntresses were NOT tending to nature, they were on night elf business, that business happened to be guarding the well of eternity and cleaning the trouble makers like satyr out. the druids only joined them when things got catastrophically out of control.. e.g. Satyr wars, shifting sands war and WC3 war.






    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    I think it might also be because of the Night Warrior itself used to carve out the Kaldorei Empire - perhaps after taking back one of its most ancient Highborne settlements, Bashal'Aran, the night elves noticed some old banners there, and remembered their ancient heritage before the Sundering, and attempted to formally reclaim their heritage.

    Tyrande is such a complicated character - she CAN be tolerant sometimes (she welcomed a nation of humans into her capital, and accepted the Shen'dralar back into their society), but she can be impatient and judgmental at others. Perhaps she would simply toss the banner into the fire - but she didn't. Which makes this scenario also possible:



    The night elves might be using the banner to remind their allies and enemies that they are not simply helpless victims - that they were once ruled the world's greatest empire and proudest civilization, that they survived 15,000 years of war and conflict, and they are willing to sacrifice everything to protect that history.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKS0Jq9U_E
    The order of the black moon would have it's own banner (like all the night elf orders and factions do, independent of each other - where the devs have bothered to design them). There won't be any old banners in those ruins, look at Dire Maul, only 1,000 years into ruins, look at how tattered the cloth is.. Bashal'aran is 10,000 years into ruin, there's hardly a stone left standing, despite the magic used to build it, do you think a banner would have survived that long in that condition?

    nah, I just think that blizzard are now just showing us the kaldorei race banner, and I think it's a timely reminder to those that don't realise it or forget, that the night elves you play are the same ones that were in the pre-sundering era (this is why the race is still called kaldorei, there is no name change, there are no physical changes like high elves undergo or Nightborne undergo, kaldorei then and kaldorei now are the same kaldorei .. same race, and it's identity is much more than just the incredible cities and luxurious lifestyles they lived during one of their eras - that identity and national pride is kept, despite all the changes, and though the game doesn't show it anywhere near the detail the lore alludes, there are many cultural and spiritual beliefs, knowledge that have been around for up to 15,000 years for them), and they don't disown their civilization either, they mourn its destruction, because it was good. the culture of the Highborne may have annoyed and grated many because of their arrogance, we are told that much, but the rest was good. Very good. And it's connected.

    There is a lot of visual stuff of the kaldorei that wasn't actually in game prior to legion. I have been stressing that the kaldorei on the whole have been greatly ignored in wow ( you only need compare the written information in the books and lore to what is shown in game about them and told in game and you'll easily see I'm right, especially if you played before Legion), despite the strong start in classic, not everything about them was shown and little to nothing of their story advanced through the expansions. They got the same relative update every starting race got in cataclysm, but that was it, no expansion theme or story ever advanced their own story, unlike other races, until we get to legion.

    It's not surprising they took the time now that for the first time in wow's history they were entirely focusing on the night elves (in classic they were just one of 8 player races and countless zones, in Cata same thing, just one of many races), but in legion they were the prime focus for the main zones, and so much of the detail in lore actually got representation, they were probably shocked they didn't have a banner to represent the race.. and generated one. Used it in all kaldorei settings, from Suramar to Darkshore, to show us what it means.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-05-29 at 11:23 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The night elves right now are apparently abandoning their Teldrassil banner symbol - and instead using the older Kaldorei Empire banner of Suramar, apparently some kind of ancient Highborne banner, which is used all over Suramar and perhaps other settlements?

    In a Nazmir world quest on the Horde side, I even took a screenshot - these banners were over the night elf encampment - all over the Mangrove Shore next to the ancients - so it is indeed very interesting and somewhat surprising, from a certain perspective. And it also appeared next to the Forsaken banner in the Caverns of Time anniversary celebration last year, without any clear explanation:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...619_204046.jpg



    Isn't this the nightborne banner? Didn't Thalyssra's people proudly use these banners - all over their city and the surrounding regions? So why are the night elves of Teldrassil, who were away from Suramar for ten thousand years, using these banners now - and after Thalyssra and her people joined the Horde? Why are they using the Kaldorei Empire banner, when most of their population (including presumably most of the Shen'dralar) is gone, and they have very little hope of re-establishing any kind of "empire" today?
    It's the new old Kaldorei banner, not Highborn. No more teldrassil no need for the tree banner.

    The Highborn banner was this
    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20160614210328

    Currently the Highborn only exist as a dozens of night elf mages in Feralas. I don't think they raised the old banner again though
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    It's the new old Kaldorei banner, not Highborn. No more teldrassil no need for the tree banner.

    The Highborn banner was this
    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20160614210328

    Currently the Highborn only exist as a dozens of night elf mages in Feralas. I don't think they raised the old banner again though
    The Highborne, at least some of them helped with the Warfront (their leader was there), some died in Teldrassil.
    Then Shen'dralar actually got their own banner: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...lar_Banner.jpg

    Some of the Highborn from back in the time also are alive in Suramar but High Elfs and Nightborn are their descendants. (Some Druids were maybe also High Born)


    Personally, I think that banner fits best with that actual elfs who still have a connection with Elune, why else use a moon crest... and only the night elf on that Alliance still have that going. Even before the Sundering a lot of the High Born didn't really worship Elune anymore.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    The Highborne, at least some of them helped with the Warfront (their leader was there), some died in Teldrassil.
    Then Shen'dralar actually got their own banner: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...lar_Banner.jpg

    Some of the Highborn from back in the time also are alive in Suramar but High Elfs and Nightborn are their descendants. (Some Druids were maybe also High Born)


    Personally, I think that banner fits best with that actual elfs who still have a connection with Elune, why else use a moon crest... and only the night elf on that Alliance still have that going. Even before the Sundering a lot of the High Born didn't really worship Elune anymore.
    I would like to see where the phoenix comes from and why the high elves took it up as their symbol. Was it the sunstirder houses symbol when they were night elven highborne? But you could make the same argument above for all remaining Highborne that are still night elves, but they aren't leaving the banner behind either. It's likely because the Nightborne aren't quite as much changed as to warrant that.

    Thalyssra spoke of leaving tradition, the moon crest, the stars, everything they've ever known is so tied into the whole kaldorei schmeal, I am not sure they can just leave it behind and change everything immediately... they'd have to go through something like the high elf exile to warrant that sort of change.

    Elune didn't abandon them, they abandoned her - ish , we actually don't know. The commons people seem to be from the lowborne kaldorei stock, otherwise the elite loyalist guards wouldn't be calling us lowborne when we were disguised as one of them. I think those were more spiritual too.

    I think kaldorei identity with far less of Elune is already well established in their circles, long before the nightborne trap themselves in the shield. They just continue with things as is... not being Elune followers I don't think have much to bear with it.

    remember, it's the fascination with the moonlight and star light, that got Elune attributed to the Moon, not the other way round. They didn't love Elune and because she was the moon, loved it.. no, she symbolised one of the things they found most precious.


    This is why Highborne, whether Nightborne or normal won't change that banner unless they stop loving those things and have a whole shift sale. The arcane, nature, the night, the stars, the moon, it's all part of their racial identity - and let's be fair, there have been no real departures from any of that over the last 10,000 years compared to pre-sundering times.

  19. #19
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
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    Kinda offtopic but the more I think about Teldrassil the more I think it is good it is gone.
    Maybe modern WoW devs disagree with this world map design and plan something different for the future.

    I am still optimistic for future wow expansions, even if I am not a fan of the current. I think we will see much more Kaldorei stuff soon
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Kinda offtopic but the more I think about Teldrassil the more I think it is good it is gone.
    Maybe modern WoW devs disagree with this world map design and plan something different for the future.

    I am still optimistic for future wow expansions, even if I am not a fan of the current. I think we will see much more Kaldorei stuff soon
    For the game setting and loving things a long, yes it's good it's gone. it's a really tragic story, and i can understand NElf fans frustrated that for the 3rd time in the row of major events that have racial causalities they are the ones the biggest losers (sundering, WC3, and now BFA), their biggest gripe was never having anything back.

    But it was good for movement.. Wow felt like nothing ever changed... were night elves going to be in constant struggle with orcs all the time? Winning in Ashenvale against the orcs was the boring predictable option, which isn't always bad, but if they could give something more interesting they should have done.

    Unfortunately, blizzard doesn't seem to be very good at doing this sort of thing.. you don't destroy something so long standing with the playerbase without providing a better alternative.. and this was their biggest mistake.

    They took a lot from the night elves and gave them nothing back.. so you have the pain of a massacre in addition to miserable end. It's now gone on 2 expansions. Still homeless, city less etc.. still mostly powerless.. Tyrande gets to control the black moon power.. but what about Elune's starlight power? what about the emerald dream and world tree powers? or even the well of eternity?

    This is what blizzard doesn't seem to get.. only 1 or 2 races ever get something good out of the crap they experience, it's almost like they don't want you to care about your race or class, just being nameless hero that kills stuff and your reward is you beat a big baddy, while your race is still devastated and in shambles.

    Let's see all the races offended by this story telling.

    1. Tauren
    2. Trolls
    3. Forsaken
    4. Night elves
    5. Worgen
    6. Draenei
    7. Orcs

    Tbh, only humans and to a degree blood elves seem to get anything back.. I guess it's the races blizzard has a hard on for them and a big middle finger of CBA for the others

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