"Pay to win"

[InflaterMouse]

2 months???? Im 52 on my sham already, gotten 8 lvls boosted total by guildmates, rest is just questing, around 2hrs pr lvl after 30...
/played is 3 days...

If you can only play 2 hrs a day you dont really care that much anyway, and ur not winning at 58

When someone tells me its normal for it to take 2 months to level to 58 I guess I should have seen that as all I needed to read.

[shise]

the bfa boe fiasco is the actual definition of p2w,blizzard puts extreme boe's in the game to make you buy and sell tokens,its basicaly like selling items in the shop just with an extra step

and whats worse is that its also some of the most bis items,items that all the top raiding guilds invested bilions upon bilions of gold in,all that gold didnt grow on trees,it was gold sold with tokens that others got with cash for this express reason

Even if you bought all the boes, which I did on some alt... you are still far behind in gear and you still had to grind your brains out for AP.
So again, what exactly did you "win"? Literally nothing. Sure, you saved time of maybe a week or tops two farming some initial gear. You still win nothing.
Remember that you had I think 4 BoE items you could actually use, maybe 5. You´d still miss more than half of the equipment and again, the whole Ap and powers crap which is what determined a character´s performance anyway.

[deenman]

Even if you bought all the boes, which I did on some alt... you are still far behind in gear and you still had to grind your brains out for AP.
So again, what exactly did you "win"? Literally nothing. Sure, you saved time of maybe a week or tops two farming some initial gear. You still win nothing.
Remember that you had I think 4 BoE items you could actually use, maybe 5. You´d still miss more than half of the equipment and again, the whole Ap and powers crap which is what determined a character´s performance anyway.

huh?what the heck are you talking about?you could buy the max posible ilvl with the best max corruption for multiple slots,bis items that playing normaly you have zero chance of getting because the odds in the math is to crazy

ap had nothing to do with anything

[Ticj]

Erm, if no one levels a "classic character" in two weeks, how did we have lots of Alliance level 60 Shamans running around yesterday? Even saw one kitted out in BiS including Staff from Kel'Thuzad ...

I actually did buy the boost because I never bothered levelling this time around during Classic however, I do intend to get involved with the guild for TBC. Have to say it's a bit of an experience trying to get professions levelled without access to the gold I would have made over past two years, though it is certainly "interesting".

yeah, a boosted friend of mine had that issue. If you're still struggling for gold on the alt, you could try questing through silithus at 60. Completing most of the quests in the zone (which no longer has elite mobs) gives you around 100g. It took me and a friend about 90 minutes to get through it so really not a bad way of getting some quick cash.

[crakerjack]

I would deffo consider 2-3 months of play time "a significantly long grind". Oh you can play 15+ hours a day? Good for you, still doesnt change the fact that most people dont.

Yea I agree, 2-3 months is a significant grind, but who realistically is taking that long AND cares about being competitive? Regardless, the boost doesn't guarantee any feat such as R1 gladiator, realm first kills or any significant titles. Whether someone starts raiding week 1 or week 6, we're all gated with each phase. If you put in the time regardless, you'll still be on an even playing field. P2W isn't about even playing fields. If you want to be stronger in a P2W game, you buy their services which give you an unobtainable advantage over other players regardless of how much they grind.

[AeneasBK]

So the thread is split on the semantic retards who argue "As it isn't 'winning' WoW then it isn't P2W" versus the rational "P2W includes paying money for in game advantages so it's clearly P2W"

None of you will change the meaning of the term in the others dictionary so w/e really.

It's pretty clear which side is clutching at straws though.

[kamuimac]

2 months???? Im 52 on my sham already, gotten 8 lvls boosted total by guildmates, rest is just questing, around 2hrs pr lvl after 30...
/played is 3 days...

If you can only play 2 hrs a day you dont really care that much anyway, and ur not winning at 58

3 days played is 72 hours. over span of 1 week this meant you played for 10+ hours each day

not everyone is unemployed to be able to play such amount of time

[Niwes]

Erm, if no one levels a "classic character" in two weeks, how did we have lots of Alliance level 60 Shamans running around yesterday? Even saw one kitted out in BiS including Staff from Kel'Thuzad ...

I actually did buy the boost because I never bothered levelling this time around during Classic however, I do intend to get involved with the guild for TBC. Have to say it's a bit of an experience trying to get professions levelled without access to the gold I would have made over past two years, though it is certainly "interesting".

because 1-60 has a playedtime around 10 days. if you play 20 hours a day ofc you can easily do. if you read my text carefully i talk about „normal adult human“ and NOT about these persons. ofc, as always there are that wow freaks pushing 20 hours a day into it, for 2-3 weeks. as always. but thats for sure wether the average player nor the timeframe a normal adult can handle. you can use the classic leveling calculators out there or ask some ppl playing that game since a good while. when they are honest they will tell you the simple truth, that it takes around 200-240 hours. now you can calculate how long it takes, when you play every evening lets say 4 hours and 2x8 hours on weekend. this is a total of 36 hours a week. means you need around 6 weeks doing like this.

but you can just try it by yourself. go and level 1-60 if you dont believe that. you will quickly see, HOW crazy all your shamans are. they are just die hard fans and powerleveler and there is nothing wrong with that. but a normal adult guy, playing wow as hobby, never ever go 1-60 in 2 weeks. try it by yourself.

[Super Kami Dende]

if the game gives you that little fun and feels like work for you, you should definetely quit

Why would I? The part I enjoy in WoW is Max level. Being able to skip that actually KEEPS me playing. I CBF leveling 1-60 again.

[WowIsDead64]

Because you have a wider opinion of P2W doesn't change the mechanical definition of the phrase. Boosting doesn't fit the definition of pay to win because you don't win anything in the game. You save time, you aren't awarded anything but time. Realistically being at 58 doesn't even give you the promise of getting gear faster at end game unless you already are a part of an active raiding guild or pay for a carry which happens without a boosted 58. So I can't see an argument that makes sense on it being P2W. I am open to more discussion but still not seeing it.

Define "win" first. Do you really think, that only something like Mythic WF - is true "win"? Where is that red line, game devs can't cross? Winning has another meaning, that has nothing to do with competitive content - completing game. If you complete content and have nothing else to do - you win. For me P2W - is when you can skip content for $$$. And level boost is exactly this.

For example. When you buy character for $$$ in FPS game instead of grinding it - it's not P2W, because getting that character isn't content. You'll play this game anyway, but get more fun, when playing on that character. But leveling IS CONTENT. Getting new max level character faster, than other player - IS ADVANTAGE.

Even shorter - you pay for not playing the game, so it turns into souvenir shop.

[Lolites]

It's pretty clear which side is clutching at straws though.

yeah, both...

i think people are being quite disingenuous when they say wow BECOME p2w bcs of boost/token or whatever, bcs if ANY SLIGHT advantage you can buy is p2w then wow was p2w since the very begining...

btw, calling someone "Retard" bcs they have different opinion on something shows nicely what you are

[Goat7]

yeah boost is def pay to win, its awful. also LFG and trade being spammed with nothing but gold selling runs, also very sad to see, worse in classic then in retail and its very bad there. But this is clearly what the current WoW base in both games wants right? nobody seems to care and everyone wants to save there time or make that gold so i only see it getting worse.

It is funny tho, the hypocrisy, seeing guildees bitch about amazon games adding some sort of boost or pay 2 win in the future of New World and cancelling their pre order and literally going and buying the boost in classic WoW with that return money. I just fucking cant...

[Ringthane]

You have a different definition of "winning". Thats fine. Looting illidans warglaives or getting gladiator isn't the only way for players to "win". This is an open-ended mmo. You are purposely defining "winning" in a way that fits your narrative. Id say skipping straight to end game allows you more weekly lockouts of gear which would inturn = pay to win.

OK, let's play this game. My definition of "tornado" means getting freaky with Anna Kournikova. I know a guy whose definition of "sovereignty" means being able to flip over tractors. How many other words should we make up definitions for so they'll fit our narrative?

[Lolites]

yeah boost is def pay to win, its awful. also LFG and trade being spammed with nothing but gold selling runs, also very sad to see, worse in classic then in retail and its very bad there. But this is clearly what the current WoW base in both games wants right? nobody seems to care and everyone wants to save there time or make that gold so i only see it getting worse.

thing is, this was happening since original vanila, yet somehow NOW wow turned into p2w... always cracks me up

[Goat7]

thing is, this was happening since original vanila, yet somehow NOW wow turned into p2w... always cracks me up

couldn't buy boosts in vanilla.

you could purchase leveling services or buy gold but those were not sold by blizzard and also usually turned into banned accounts.

[kail]

The boost is no different than giving a mage gold to have him boost you in dungeons, so if it makes wow p2w then wow was always p2w? What diff does the currency make for a boost or not? This expansion begins at 58, so if there ever was a scenario where a level boost made sense it would be tbc classic.

Also neither boost isn't p2w either because you aren't winnning anything technically. If I enter a marathon and pay money to start in the middle of the race, what did I win? Nothing I just obtained better positioning, but I haven't won shit. I will still have to finish the race on my own if I want to win anything, so how is this any different? It's a 15 year old game maybe calm down with being so upset over what others are doing and worry about your own fun.

Bad equivalence. In game gold in classic has to be acquired within the game (not including gold traders). Your second point also paints the boost as a P2W with that analogy. Would any competition in the real world allow a runner to pay their way to start ahead of others? Paying for that advantage is a P2W feature.

[Lolites]

couldn't buy boosts in vanilla.

you could purchase leveling services or buy gold but those were not sold by blizzard and also usually turned into banned accounts.

calling it leveling service instead of boost makes it sound different, but in reality its not... you pay someone to skip leveling or make it WAY faster, different day, same shite...
"usualy turned into banned account" eh... no
my guild made fortune boosting (hell my best mate paid for his dormitory with money he get from boosting) and selling items and whatever anyone wanted to buy, yet never even heard of anyone getting ban... blizz didnt really care about boosting or selling gold, they had issue only with people using it for phishing and shit

[Azerate]

There should be NO ingame purchases.

Shiny new mount? Make it available for everyone so players can work for it ingame.

Shiny new mog? Put it behind a challenging encounter.

There is no excuse for microtransactions in a sub based MMO.

Almost like talking to a wall.

Would've could've should've...it's 2021 and games have additional monetization than their base price (or sub fee in WoW's case). But sure, keep being angry despite how little there is of it in wow instead of being, you know, happy that this is how it is.

[Goat7]

calling it leveling service instead of boost makes it sound different, but in reality its not... you pay someone to skip leveling or make it WAY faster, different day, same shite...
"usualy turned into banned account" eh... no
my guild made fortune boosting (hell my best mate paid for his dormitory with money he get from boosting) and selling items and whatever anyone wanted to buy, yet never even heard of anyone getting ban... blizz didnt really care about boosting or selling gold, they had issue only with people using it for phishing and shit

was not sold by blizzard <------------------

and yes those accounts were banned in waves, not all of them, but the ones that got caught, i know i had guildees who got banned for purchasing a leveling service, they got caught most likely cuz that leveling service used botting programs.

[Lolites]

Would any competition in the real world allow a runner to pay their way to start ahead of others?

but with boost you start BEHIND people...
people who played vanila have lvl 60, you have 58, they have epic gear, you have green, they have fast mount, you dont, they have a lot of gold, you dont, they have skilled profesions, you dont...

sure, people who start now have neither, BUT then people who started long time ago and get it paid for sub so they technicaly are ahead bcs they PAID... doesnt that make it p2w by your definition? they paid and get advantage - time to play ahead of people starting now...