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  1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I would argue an addon that shows average dps/hps, interrupts, and damage taken to avoidable mechanics would be worth more than RIO. I've known plenty of capitalist individuals who buy their way to good gear or timed runs. I've also known plenty more bad people who get carried constantly because they get carried by guildies or friends who are far better than them. Ideally, to answer your question, I would never have to pug, but my guild is currently on vacation because of the unending content drought.

    Again, the point is that it is better to improve the community instead. This is an ongoing problem irl as well as in game. People are more focused on themselves and don't care if community burns down as long as they get what they want, not realizing that by doing so they are less likely to get what they want in the long run.
    HPS is very much situational, same with interrupts.
    Rio is experience score, that is it. Simple. It's on the glance judgement which is ideal for pugging.

  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    HPS is very much situational, same with interrupts.
    Rio is experience score, that is it. Simple. It's on the glance judgement which is ideal for pugging.
    I mean done on an overall curve showing min/max on a per dungeon basis would give you a pretty good judgement. If someone averages 0-1 interrupts as a rogue over 15 necrotic wakes, you would know they are a shitter. If a different rogue has only done 2 Necrotic Wake's but averages 10-15 interrupts you know exactly which rogue you want to take. Average numbers per spec would appear over time and you would be able to get a mean score, and if the information were to be compilated across runs per spec, people could easily see where they are under or over performing. It's the same concept as comparing raiding logs, I just think the amount of data is probably too large to use as an add-on. As I made clear before, any system you use is going to have problems.

    You can keep dick riding RIO, I don't really care all that much. Though I notice you consistently ignore the point of building a stronger community, which actually addresses the initial point of this thread.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2021-05-28 at 08:14 PM.

  3. #1163
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I mean done on an overall curve showing min/max on a per dungeon basis would give you a pretty good judgement. If someone averages 0-1 interrupts as a rogue over 15 necrotic wakes, you would know they are a shitter. If a different rogue has only done 2 Necrotic Wake's but averages 10-15 interrupts you know exactly which rogue you want to take. Average numbers per spec would appear over time and you would be able to get a mean score, and if the information were to be compilated across runs per spec, people could easily see where they are under or over performing. It's the same concept as comparing raiding logs, I just think the amount of data is probably too large to use as an add-on. As I made clear before, any system you use is going to have problems.

    You can keep dick riding RIO, I don't really care all that much. Though I notice you consistently ignore the point of building a stronger community, which actually addresses the initial point of this thread.
    Unless you are playing with prot paladin, your interrupt stats will go to shit. Same as if you are running with necro ele/NF balance for healing .
    Stronger community is in premade. You won't get strong pugging community.

  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    So then instead of afk, the player just then moves just enough to avoid Afk-timer. Or how about this: they only use their filler spell. Never once casts their DPS cooldowns. Are they trolling? Or are they just a noob? How do you tell?

    Is there a threshold on using abilities? What about non-DPS abilities? Is a mage bad if he/she doesn't ever use the decurse ability?
    think of it more like not engaging in battle, like in bgs if you aren't engaged in the fighting you are flagged as afk and that means the current fight thats happen you just cant engaged any mob to avoid the trigger

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Unless you are playing with prot paladin, your interrupt stats will go to shit. Same as if you are running with necro ele/NF balance for healing .
    Stronger community is in premade. You won't get strong pugging community.
    Did you miss the part where I said that no system is perfect? Aggregate data over many runs will also account for these differences over time. In the pug community the differences will be much smaller than those who premade, but the whole point of the addon should be for the pug community, and not for people who almost always run premade to flex their peen on the rare occasions they pug.

    Nice defeatist attitude though, you're one of those people who just shit talks people under performing instead of giving tips or advice aren't you?

  6. #1166
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    You can keep dick riding RIO, I don't really care all that much. Though I notice you consistently ignore the point of building a stronger community, which actually addresses the initial point of this thread.
    R.IO is removed from the game.

    Now, instead of using R.IO, people go to your Armory, see that you haven't timed any keys and refuse to invite you for the same exact reason that they would have declined you had it still been a thing.

    Removing R.IO solves nothing. You're blaming R.IO for a problem with the community.

  7. #1167
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    why the fuck would anyone give tips or advise in m+?

    you are supposed to learn the content and your class before you go there...

    if you need to be told what to do, you shouldn't be there...
    "You need to experience it before you experience it". This is exactly the problem I am pointing out. If it were so easy to do content just by reading guides and watching videos, then everyone would have downed mythic sire by now. This is the same armchair shit talk bro's do watching football or mma. This is why one of my issues with RIO is that people like to only invite those who no longer need the content because they have passed it. Like aotc only sire groups, or people limiting normal CN runs to 210 ilvl or above. This doesn't help build up anyone, and is a blatantly selfish attitude that doesn't belong in a multiplayer game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    R.IO is removed from the game.

    Now, instead of using R.IO, people go to your Armory, see that you haven't timed any keys and refuse to invite you for the same exact reason that they would have declined you had it still been a thing.

    Removing R.IO solves nothing. You're blaming R.IO for a problem with the community.
    When have I said to remove RIO? I'm pointing out the issues it highlights within the community, propagated by people like you who then use whatever excuse you can think of to avoid taking responsibility.

  8. #1168
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    i learned what all trash and bosses do when doing normal/heroic/mythic dungeons before m+ even was released... yet there are plenty of people who don't even know the dungeon and then expects people to put up with their shit in keys beyond entry level keys...

    how about you learn the content in the easier versions?
    Because you don't learn how to deal with high stakes damage values and dps checks without doing them. Sure it's easy in theory, but regular and heroics are so easy you don't really need a tank, and mythic 0's aren't much more difficult and are easily doable with 3 players of reasonable competence. You get to learn the very basics sure, but you don't learn how to perform. You can practice all day on the training dummy, but it will do nothing to prepare you for m+. It's worse for tanks because route's change weekly and how you do pulls is going to depend heavily on your group.

    Being a good player is not just about having the knowledge, it's about implementing it AND being reactive. These are things that can be taught and learned through practice only in those situations, but instead people would rather shit talk and abandon dungeons. There is a reason even the best guilds wipe repeatedly on hard fights and don't just go practice on heroic or normal versions instead. Your whole idea is flawed.

  9. #1169
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    When have I said to remove RIO? I'm pointing out the issues it highlights within the community, propagated by people like you who then use whatever excuse you can think of to avoid taking responsibility.
    This "flaw" you think you're a some kind of savant for noticing isn't exclusive to WoW. It's basic human nature. It's why shit like this happens in the real world:



    ...until you can figure out how to successfully rewire the collective human subconscious your complaints are hollow redirections from the actual underlying issue here: Your refusal to grind IO like everybody else.

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    This "flaw" you think you're a some kind of savant for noticing isn't exclusive to WoW. It's basic human nature. It's why shit like this happens in the real world:



    ...until you can figure out how to successfully rewire the collective human subconscious your complaints are hollow redirections from the actual underlying issue here: Your refusal to grind IO like everybody else.
    I mean I did say it was a problem with society at large as well.... it might help if you actually read my posts before you respond.

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Did you miss the part where I said that no system is perfect? Aggregate data over many runs will also account for these differences over time. In the pug community the differences will be much smaller than those who premade, but the whole point of the addon should be for the pug community, and not for people who almost always run premade to flex their peen on the rare occasions they pug.

    Nice defeatist attitude though, you're one of those people who just shit talks people under performing instead of giving tips or advice aren't you?
    You are assuming so much stuff about me in your responses.. Pretty sure you are just virtue signal stuff.
    Rio is not perfect. Why replace something not perfect with something worse?

  12. #1172
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I mean I did say it was a problem with society at large as well.... it might help if you actually read my posts before you respond.
    It'd help if you'd read my posts, too. Particularly the part where I've pointed out twice now that your concern has more to do with your own lack of motivation than it does anything to do with something like R.IO.

  13. #1173
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I mean I did say it was a problem with society at large as well.... it might help if you actually read my posts before you respond.
    lol. You read what you wanted in my posts. Blaming something else besides YOUR LACK OF EXPERIENCE IN CURRENT CONTENT

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I mean I did say it was a problem with society at large as well.... it might help if you actually read my posts before you respond.
    I mean the problem in the community is a massive entitlement probably. Expecting to be invited because of some achievement from 12 years ago in a content where you have not proven yourself and after being refused due to there being players with more experience coming to forums to complain about community... entitlement

  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It'd help if you'd read my posts, too. Particularly the part where I've pointed out twice now that your concern has more to do with your own lack of motivation than it does anything to do with something like R.IO.
    You know nothing about my motivation or lack there-of, and have no idea how much grinding I've been doing to get said experience. So fuck off I guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    lol. You read what you wanted in my posts. Blaming something else besides YOUR LACK OF EXPERIENCE IN CURRENT CONTENT

    I mean the problem in the community is a massive entitlement probably. Expecting to be invited because of some achievement from 12 years ago in a content where you have not proven yourself and after being refused due to there being players with more experience coming to forums to complain about community... entitlement
    I mean I'm sorry I had a life and wasn't playing WoW for the past several years? What do you want from me? I never claimed to be entitled to anything, just putting it out there that people who believe that some of the rarest and most difficult achievements in the game are worth nothing currently because they were earned years ago are either uneducated or absolute morons. As I said before, it's like saying Mike Tyson is a shitty boxer just because his last pro match was 16 years ago.

  15. #1175
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I mean I'm sorry I had a life and wasn't playing WoW for the past several years? What do you want from me? I never claimed to be entitled to anything, just putting it out there that people who believe that some of the rarest and most difficult achievements in the game are worth nothing currently because they were earned years ago are either uneducated or absolute morons. As I said before, it's like saying Mike Tyson is a shitty boxer just because his last pro match was 16 years ago.
    God, your strawmen are so weak.
    Was MT great boxer? Yes. Is he a great boxer now? Well, what do you think? Would he stand against current boxers? Also to make it fair comparison - he would have to fight vs a kickboxer while actually not having experience against them. Because raiding =/= m+.
    You are entitled because you came here and complained about not getting invited into content because there are people with more experience who are chosen over you and you think that achievement which I wouldn't even know what it is or would I care to look up would weight anything vs me trying to assemble a group quick as possibly.
    You know where you do a in-depth analysis on your group? Guilds. Find on which is not dead.

  16. #1176
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    You know nothing about my motivation or lack there-of, and have no idea how much grinding I've been doing to get said experience. So fuck off I guess?
    ...says the guy who thinks it's perfectly fine to link a 12-year-old raid achievement for invitation to 5-man content group content. Gotcha.

    FWIW, you might want to check out this add-on.

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    God, your strawmen are so weak.
    Was MT great boxer? Yes. Is he a great boxer now? Well, what do you think? Would he stand against current boxers? Also to make it fair comparison - he would have to fight vs a kickboxer while actually not having experience against them. Because raiding =/= m+.
    You are entitled because you came here and complained about not getting invited into content because there are people with more experience who are chosen over you and you think that achievement which I wouldn't even know what it is or would I care to look up would weight anything vs me trying to assemble a group quick as possibly.
    You know where you do a in-depth analysis on your group? Guilds. Find on which is not dead.
    You are talking about strawmen? I have made none of those arguments and never complained about not getting invited. Mike Tyson 16 years retired and stoned off his gourd will still outperform 95% of humans at boxing. A former top end player will still outperform 95% of players even after a multi-year break. That's just how things go man. "Raiding=/= M+" is bullshit because the mechanics are the same regardless of what content you do because WoW is WoW. When a top player is talking about mechanics, they are talking about how the game functions and not what is written on a tool tip. It all boils down to knowing positioning and hitting buttons properly, and a good returning player with no current experience will do those 2 things better than even an average current player who has farmed these dungeons for months. Don't like it? Tough shit, WoW is essentially a true meritocracy in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    ...says the guy who thinks it's perfectly fine to link a 12-year-old raid achievement for invitation to 5-man content group content. Gotcha.

    FWIW, you might want to check out this add-on.
    Never once said I linked it to get an invitation, but keep building straw men. I said I had been laughed at when people asked me to link something to prove I wasn't bad and that was given. People are perfectly capable of going to my armory or looking at my character in-game to see the "Death's Demise" title if they think I might be faking an achievement that less than 0.1% of the playerbase has. If you also think that my previous game experience somehow means nothing in the current state of the game, you are as free to be as wrong as anyone else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    You are assuming so much stuff about me in your responses.. Pretty sure you are just virtue signal stuff.
    Rio is not perfect. Why replace something not perfect with something worse?
    Where is your proof that my idea is somehow worse than something that can be easily cheesed and is only accurate about a players skill on the top end of the curve? At least my idea provides aggregate data that allows people to judge themselves accurately and look for ways to improve instead of end up on forums bitching about not getting invites from elitist pricks that don't even know how to properly use the data they are given.

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    It all boils down to knowing positioning and hitting buttons properly, and a good returning player with no current experience will do those 2 things better than even an average current player who has farmed these dungeons for months. Don't like it? Tough shit, WoW is essentially a true meritocracy in the end.
    Oh, so that is why best MDI players were wiping on +22s when they started training for pushing? They knew dungeons inside out on +18s and +20s. Tell me more about how your knowledge of the game from the 10 years is relevant in current dungeons.
    Again, no one is saying that you are not capable to catch up - old achievements, provided that it was your account and it was not like realm first during ICC patch. I am saying, that people without experience in current content is a bad bet if you care about completing a dungeon and they should do their own keys or push low keys until they get accepted into higher dungeons. If you want to overshoot what your score allows you to - join a group.

  19. #1179
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I would argue an addon that shows average dps/hps, interrupts, and damage taken to avoidable mechanics would be worth more than RIO. I've known plenty of capitalist individuals who buy their way to good gear or timed runs. I've also known plenty more bad people who get carried constantly because they get carried by guildies or friends who are far better than them. Ideally, to answer your question, I would never have to pug, but my guild is currently on vacation because of the unending content drought.

    Again, the point is that it is better to improve the community instead. This is an ongoing problem irl as well as in game. People are more focused on themselves and don't care if community burns down as long as they get what they want, not realizing that by doing so they are less likely to get what they want in the long run.
    DPS and HPS are entirely irrelevant without context.

    I can do 3k hps and get through a dungeon and I can do 6k hps and not be able to get through the dungeon.

    If the tank is pulling one pack at a time, you will have lower dps than if the tank pulls 2-3 packs at a time.

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Where is your proof that my idea is somehow worse than something that can be easily cheesed and is only accurate about a players skill on the top end of the curve? At least my idea provides aggregate data that allows people to judge themselves accurately and look for ways to improve instead of end up on forums bitching about not getting invites from elitist pricks that don't even know how to properly use the data they are given.
    Lol. You can right click copy link and get all the info you need to set up a group at a decent key.
    Going into logs is for something way higher and requires more time than the dungeon itself will take. Imagine log-checking people for 15.

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