[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Jastall]

You forgot Danny listening to Tyrion, the master political tactician, and his suggestion to give Gendry his own fucking noble house.

Yes, let's give the only surviving heir of Robert Baratheon (the king that gave King's Landing peace and prosperity) land of his own and make him a noble. Instead of imprisoning/getting rid of the biggest political rival.

Such garbage writing.

Na, my personal favorite was making Bronn Lord of Highgarden (??) and Master of Coin (???)... because he threatened Tyrion's life at crossbowpoint over it that one time, which I guess makes him qualified and trustworthy enough to hand him the richest Lordship in the realm and grant him control over the kingdom's finances despite his priority being more brothels (insert laugh track here).

[Fahrenheit]

Am I the only one who lost all interest in the franchise just because of the series?

I really loved the books and S1-6 but man.. season 8 just outright killed everything for me

Was there ever a explanation by D&D why they did the show dirty? They could give it to another showrunner who still has motivation. It just makes me sad.

I know there are interviews in which HBO staff told us that they wanted up to 12 seasons if they have to

Same. Read the first five books, have zero desire to read anything further. They butchered the ending no doubt, but Martin shoulders a lot of the blame too. Dude wrote books 1-3 over the spans of six years. Took five years for book 4, and six years for book 5. Now he’s been “working” on book 6 for eleven years. Forget about book 7.

[Jastall]

Same. Read the first five books, have zero desire to read anything further. They butchered the ending no doubt, but Martin shoulders a lot of the blame too. Dude wrote books 1-3 over the spans of six years. Took five years for book 4, and six years for book 5. Now he’s been “working” on book 6 for eleven years. Forget about book 7.

I've completely given up on the book ever releasing. OK maybe we get a book 6, but 7 is right out. His main excuse for not writing was that he was busy with football and fan conventions and such; well those things have been hit with the off switch for a year and half now and he's still nowhere near done it seems. Real reason is that he's tired of the series, can't be bothered to untie the Mereenese Knot he tied himself up into, and will just collect his money and enjoy himself until he dies.

Which is 100% his right obviously. But it does mean the show is the only actual conclusion this saga will ever get... and they fucked it up badly. Such a promising beginning, and such a lamentable end for all involved.

[cubby]

how.. does that conversation establish meaning that THE CITY ALSO KNOWS TO CHANGE TO???? Tyrion is not inside the walls. as far as people living in king's landing know - bells do not mean surrender. how do THEY know that the meaning has changed?

Who cares if the people inside knew it or not. It only matters that Cersei and Dany knew it. If Dany knows the bells ringing mean surrender, and Cersei knows it as well, and Cersei orders the bell rung, that's all that matters. Who fucking cares if some peasant nobody knows are not.

This is why you think the season 8 was good. because for you consistent progression is not important. what they say at any given moment is more important then what they show.

I think Season 8 was good because it was good. Consistent progression is paramount to a solid series, and we saw that all throughout the GoT series. More importantly, you fail to recognize that "season 7 & 8" only reside in the notes that were given to D&D by GRRM. For all we know, the literal events of those last two seasons are exactly what GRRM martin planned. Was the writing as good? No, of course not. Nobody could capture GoT style better than GRRM, and when the source ran out, the series itself would almost certainly suffer. But that doesn't mean it was "awful" or "shitty" or didn't stay true to the characters arcs.

and moreover, she was making rational decisions, ruthless but rational all the way up until "suddenly she snapped"

That's how it usually happens. If she was making irrational decisions at the beginning it wouldn't be a developing character.

I do want to say that chatting with you, Adams, and jackofwinds have given some good food for thought. Especially the blown timeline - I had no idea how short the book timeline was. Not just the timeline though, other issues/problems.

[Witchblade77]

Who cares if the people inside knew it or not. It only matters that Cersei and Dany knew it. If Dany knows the bells ringing mean surrender, and Cersei knows it as well, and Cersei orders the bell rung, that's all that matters. Who fucking cares if some peasant nobody knows are not.


I think Season 8 was good because it was good. Consistent progression is paramount to a solid series, and we saw that all throughout the GoT series. More importantly, you fail to recognize that "season 7 & 8" only reside in the notes that were given to D&D by GRRM. For all we know, the literal events of those last two seasons are exactly what GRRM martin planned. Was the writing as good? No, of course not. Nobody could capture GoT style better than GRRM, and when the source ran out, the series itself would almost certainly suffer. But that doesn't mean it was "awful" or "shitty" or didn't stay true to the characters arcs.


That's how it usually happens. If she was making irrational decisions at the beginning it wouldn't be a developing character.

I do want to say that chatting with you, Adams, and jackofwinds have given some good food for thought. Especially the blown timeline - I had no idea how short the book timeline was. Not just the timeline though, other issues/problems.

how the hell would Cercei know it? and what does Cercei have to do with rigning the bells she is not the one ringing the bells, army doesn't know that ringing bells are supposed to be surrender, actual bell ringers do not know, etc. please.. stop trying to give a rational explanation to writers simply forgetting something that happened multiple seasons ago

a well written character who is shown to be acting rationally for YEARS doesn't just snap because they need Dragon lady to be bad now. a group of people (unsulied) who are fanatically loyal to their queen liberator do NOT just walk away, letting her murderer or people complacent in her murder live, especially after they murdered who merely insulted her. Dothraki is killed by night king, nope still alive. culture of centuries worth of looting and pillaging and raping, their Kal of Kals is killed... do nothing and just are.. gone again because they stopped being people and became plot devices to trot out as needed, only to be forgotten again.

dude.. I'm sorry but no. season 8 wasn't good. and neither was season 7 for that matter. even those awesome moments that we so love to rewatch on youtube... are only awesome in isolation. in context they are awful. and not because they merely ran out of source material. but because they made changes to source material from the start... and then never adopted to it. characters MUST end up where source material told us even though parts of the story that took them there are not there, as characters in our show they are very different and so on.

[starstationprofm]

GRRM probably mentally checked out on finishing the books circa 2014 when the show was making truckloads of money.

No reason to ever finish them when he's filthy rich.

The only thing that leaves me confused is that he has no kids. So who exactly is he milking the cow for?

[Isilrien]

I should have phrased that better, my apologies. You're absolutely right, these are our own opinions, something not to be "corrected".

Wait a minute. You said to me that there is a sense of right and wrong and that these discussions are based on sussing this out, and not based on personal opinion. You can't have it both ways.

[cubby]

Wait a minute. You said to me that there is a sense of right and wrong and that these discussions are based on sussing this out, and not based on personal opinion. You can't have it both ways.

I was merely addressing the way I phrased my response to him specifically. There is indeed a sense of right and wrong that still can be discussed, sussing out the right and wrong.

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how the hell would Cercei know it? and what does Cercei have to do with rigning the bells she is not the one ringing the bells, army doesn't know that ringing bells are supposed to be surrender, actual bell ringers do not know, etc. please.. stop trying to give a rational explanation to writers simply forgetting something that happened multiple seasons ago

a well written character who is shown to be acting rationally for YEARS doesn't just snap because they need Dragon lady to be bad now. a group of people (unsulied) who are fanatically loyal to their queen liberator do NOT just walk away, letting her murderer or people complacent in her murder live, especially after they murdered who merely insulted her. Dothraki is killed by night king, nope still alive. culture of centuries worth of looting and pillaging and raping, their Kal of Kals is killed... do nothing and just are.. gone again because they stopped being people and became plot devices to trot out as needed, only to be forgotten again.

dude.. I'm sorry but no. season 8 wasn't good. and neither was season 7 for that matter. even those awesome moments that we so love to rewatch on youtube... are only awesome in isolation. in context they are awful. and not because they merely ran out of source material. but because they made changes to source material from the start... and then never adopted to it. characters MUST end up where source material told us even though parts of the story that took them there are not there, as characters in our show they are very different and so on.

(i'm not sure what your mean in your first paragraph - i understand what you're commenting on, but the things you're saying are making sense to me - what did the writers forget multiple seasons ago? - whoever rang the bells knew it was a sign for surrender, because Tyrion told them while he was speaking with Cersei before he went back - i thought we already figured that out, from my previous post)

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But objectively speaking, the main characters followed their arc, including Dany's eventual tipping over into madness. The writing was great, the characters came to justifiable endings, and there were plenty of terrific moments, that play very well in the entire story line.

Nothing you've said above contradicts the points myself and others have made, about Dany's descension specifically, and the overall storyline in general. You don't have to like the last two seasons, that's your choice - but if you're going to argue why they are "bad", you have to present solid reasons and "evidence" of sort. Nothing of which you have provided.

Objectively speaking the final season was the most viewed, and the most enjoyed. Nothing presented in this forum contradicts that conclusion.

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GRRM probably mentally checked out on finishing the books circa 2014 when the show was making truckloads of money.

No reason to ever finish them when he's filthy rich.

The only thing that leaves me confused is that he has no kids. So who exactly is he milking the cow for?

It's too bad, because it would have been terrific to see how GRRM played out the ending. I still believe Bran sitting on the throne and Dany falling into madness were great, but it would be nice to see it confirmed form the original source.

Milking the cow for himself, I'm sure. People never think they are going to die. And he's finally seeing the fame and fortune he frankly so richly deserves.

[Witchblade77]

I was merely addressing the way I phrased my response to him specifically. There is indeed a sense of right and wrong that still can be discussed, sussing out the right and wrong.

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Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But objectively speaking, the main characters followed their arc, including Dany's eventual tipping over into madness. The writing was great, the characters came to justifiable endings, and there were plenty of terrific moments, that play very well in the entire story line.

Nothing you've said above contradicts the points myself and others have made, about Dany's descension specifically, and the overall storyline in general. You don't have to like the last two seasons, that's your choice - but if you're going to argue why they are "bad", you have to present solid reasons and "evidence" of sort. Nothing of which you have provided.

Objectively speaking the final season was the most viewed, and the most enjoyed. Nothing presented in this forum contradicts that conclusion.

except they haven't followed their arcs as they were set up in a show. they followed Martin's intentions maybe, but Martin also had both extra subplots AND different characterization to justify that trajectory. show? did not. objectively speaking the characters did NOT come to justifiable endings given their prior characterization and character arcs. and those terrific moments? are only terrific in isolation. I have presented PLENTY of evidence why its bad. you just chose to ignore it.

final season was most viewed maybe, but most enjoyed? I don't know where you are getting your information. even actors themselves didn't enjoy it. oh they put on a brave face, but watching them at a table read and trying to be diplomatic in interviews is quite telling.

[cubby]

except they haven't followed their arcs as they were set up in a show. they followed Martin's intentions maybe, but Martin also had both extra subplots AND different characterization to justify that trajectory. show? did not. objectively speaking the characters did NOT come to justifiable endings given their prior characterization and character arcs. and those terrific moments? are only terrific in isolation. I have presented PLENTY of evidence why its bad. you just chose to ignore it.

final season was most viewed maybe, but most enjoyed? I don't know where you are getting your information. even actors themselves didn't enjoy it. oh they put on a brave face, but watching them at a table read and trying to be diplomatic in interviews is quite telling.

Yes, they did. We can go back and forth like this all night, but you haven't demonstrated anything to lay truth to your claim. I'm not ignoring anything - I'm addressing your points as they come up, and most have fallen short.

Dany going mad? Since season 1 it was built up.
Jamie going back to Cersei? Multiple seasons, he changed, but his core didn't.
Varys defending the realm to his peril? Consistent in his character - remember, he gave up everything in Westros to help Dany, and that was pre season 7.
Bran sitting on the throne? Shocking, but very "justified" - because he truly broke the wheel, which was Dany's goal all along.

I can go on and on, and you can disagree, it's your opinion and you don't have to defend it. But if you do defend it, you need to use evidence, which you haven't. The best point you made was Tyrions decision to go in the crypt at Winterfell, which wasn't smart; and that still doesn't remotely take away from his overall character.

I do like having this conversation with you, but ending each of your responses with "no, you're wrong" and not supplying examples doesn't do us any good. And the show's viewship is one of the only metrics we can use to judge the "likeability" of the last two seasons. And viewership just went up in Seasons 7 & 8, with the final episode being the most watched of all 8 seasons.

Show me metrics that people hated the ending and the last two seasons more than others, and we can talk. Otherwise, the numbers stand for themselves. You're going to answer this with "see all the people complaining", but it's a sociological phenomenon that the complainers are always louder than the "likers"; for my profession, it's where bad law gets created (but that's another discussion for another time).

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TIMELINE QUESTION:

In the 5th book, how big are the dragons?

I'm asking because I was always under the mistaken impression that years pass in the first five seasons because of the children growing older in real life. However, the link @jackofwind provided from fan fiction shows only months or a year passing in the first four seasons.

But won't there have to be a major passage of time to allow the dragons to become full grown? What I am missing there?

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how the hell would Cercei know it? and what does Cercei have to do with rigning the bells she is not the one ringing the bells, army doesn't know that ringing bells are supposed to be surrender, actual bell ringers do not know, etc. please.. stop trying to give a rational explanation to writers simply forgetting something that happened multiple seasons ago

A shout out to you, and maybe this is what you meant by "multiple seasons ago" but I just watched Davos Seaworth say "I've never known [city] bells to mean surrender". Nice job with that one.

[Witchblade77]

Yes, they did. We can go back and forth like this all night, but you haven't demonstrated anything to lay truth to your claim. I'm not ignoring anything - I'm addressing your points as they come up, and most have fallen short.

Dany going mad? Since season 1 it was built up.
Jamie going back to Cersei? Multiple seasons, he changed, but his core didn't.
Varys defending the realm to his peril? Consistent in his character - remember, he gave up everything in Westros to help Dany, and that was pre season 7.
Bran sitting on the throne? Shocking, but very "justified" - because he truly broke the wheel, which was Dany's goal all along.

I can go on and on, and you can disagree, it's your opinion and you don't have to defend it. But if you do defend it, you need to use evidence, which you haven't. The best point you made was Tyrions decision to go in the crypt at Winterfell, which wasn't smart; and that still doesn't remotely take away from his overall character.

I do like having this conversation with you, but ending each of your responses with "no, you're wrong" and not supplying examples doesn't do us any good. And the show's viewship is one of the only metrics we can use to judge the "likeability" of the last two seasons. And viewership just went up in Seasons 7 & 8, with the final episode being the most watched of all 8 seasons.

Show me metrics that people hated the ending and the last two seasons more than others, and we can talk. Otherwise, the numbers stand for themselves. You're going to answer this with "see all the people complaining", but it's a sociological phenomenon that the complainers are always louder than the "likers"; for my profession, it's where bad law gets created (but that's another discussion for another time).

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TIMELINE QUESTION:

In the 5th book, how big are the dragons?

I'm asking because I was always under the mistaken impression that years pass in the first five seasons because of the children growing older in real life. However, the link @jackofwind provided from fan fiction shows only months or a year passing in the first four seasons.

But won't there have to be a major passage of time to allow the dragons to become full grown? What I am missing there?

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A shout out to you, and maybe this is what you meant by "multiple seasons ago" but I just watched Davos Seaworth say "I've never known [city] bells to mean surrender". Nice job with that one.

oh wow.. you have aknowledged one bit of proof. well two if we count you finaly watching the video where creator talks about Dany kinda forgetting about the fleet.

things you have ignored or dismissed.

the fact that in this world rulers are ruthless. burning opposing force is something Tyrion is praised for. Dany burning the slavers is "oh she is going mad" execution of traitors is justified when Jon does it. execution of slavers through the very methods they used to execute the slaves for anything they damn well pleased after Dany walked for MILES of the slaves being crucified because they could? she is fucked up, even though she literally merely uses their own methods against them. Dany literally stopping Dothraki from raping the women of the village they raid? forgotten. we only remember that she burned Mirri Maz Duur even though she did it because she literally killed both Drogo AND Dany's baby. we remember that she was burned but apparently forget that it was FOR A REASON. and that she was burned on Drogo's funeral pyre. we remember that she killed the khals. but we forget why.

we forget that she was so horrified by the possibility that her children may have killed a child that she locks them up. a single child horrifies her enough to chain the only children she's ever know. somehow she is apparently so upset that Jon is true heir that she loses all her wits. EVERY THOUGH HE ABDICATES TO HER AND OTHERS. even though we all know, and she definitely knows how her grandfather became a king.. and that is because his brother Aemon abdicated. there is precedent. not to mention them being closely related has NEVER been an issue for that family before. but its suddenly an issue now?

Jaimie.... Jaime who is willing to sacrifice his standing, his reputation, everything that he is to STOP MAD KING FROM BURNING KINGS LANDING... we forgot about that. we forgot why he is fed up with Cercei.. you know because she does the very thing he gave up EVERYTHING to prevent. all of his growth... gone. Tyrion who HATES Cercei, who knows how shitty she is and how much she lies, who threatens her with death after she has lost everything... suddenly trusts her word? and doesn't want her dead anymore? Cercei who hates Tyrion both for believing that he is the reason their mother died AND for believing he killed Joffrey.. has him within the reach of the weapons... along with all her enemies all in a convenient spot... and the same woman who was willing to kill who knows how many people just to take down high sparrow and Tyrells... doesn't kill them? and instead makes Daeneris mad at her rather then just killing her? Tyrion who is supposed to be so damn smart... gives consistently bad advice to Daenerys. suggests they stay in a crypts. Sansa who is suddenly all gung ho for independents even though Starks have bend the knee to Targaryens pretty much immediately before. apparently the north only remembers when it suits the writers. Varis who is this sneaky smart spy.. having full volume conversations about assassination's forgetting how to be sneaky.. and his justification.. oh well there is Jon now, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT JON IS LIKE, but he's been around Daenerys enough to know that she not only listens to her advisors, but is eager to have people advising her that are NOT yes men, she wants honesty and she does her best to minimize non combatant casualties... Daenerys who recklessly burns down supply train and yet king's landing is NOT starving. Skorpions that one moment are slow and cumbersome and can't aim for shit... the next moment, can take down a dragon in flight with almost surgical precision, and the next episode are completely useless again. why is Bran qualified to be the king? he has no claims to succession, he is not trained to rule, his only qualification is that he "has good stories" and "doesn't want to rule" who then proceeds to promote wildly unsuitable people to positions of power? why is Bron master of coin? what makes him qualified? what makes us thing that he can actualy hold high garden? why is north given independents and the two states that have far more claims and shown desire to be independent - Iron Isles and Dorn.. are totally ok with it and NOT getting sovereignty themselves?

I can keep going. all of these things I either personaly brought up or LINKED THE VIDEOS where they are brought up, which you immediately ignored.

and no, we cannot excuse it with "but they ran out of material" they started changing the storylines before they ran out of material but they did NOT adjust their writing to compensate for the changes.

Expanse is the show that is based on the books and that more or less sticks to the major story beats of the books. but when they make changes - they ADOPT to them and they make them make sense. GoT writers didn't even try. they just shoved divergent characters into story paths that no longer fit them without justifying in any why WHY should they act that way.

P.S. numbers of people watching =/= numbers of people enjoying it. you are making an assumption that people enjoyed it while ignoring all the people that did not. which includes the actors themselves incidentaly.

[cubby]

Interesting note: Season 2 foretells of Dany's insanity; which she is in the Warlock's fortress, looking for her dragons that were stolen, she is shown the throne room, burned, just as we eventually see it at the end of the series.

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/clip

Expanse is the show that is based on the books and that more or less sticks to the major story beats of the books. but when they make changes - they ADOPT to them and they make them make sense. GoT writers didn't even try. they just shoved divergent characters into story paths that no longer fit them without justifying in any why WHY should they act that way.[/QUOTE]

You're just flat out wrong. You disagreeing with what the writers did in GoT doesn't make their choices wrong. I've shown you multiple times where the character arcs stay true, and you ignore them. Again, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

P.S. numbers of people watching =/= numbers of people enjoying it. you are making an assumption that people enjoyed it while ignoring all the people that did not. which includes the actors themselves incidentaly.

P.S. you say Seasons 7 & 8 weren't well received, I say it was. The only objective evidence we have, the number of people watching it, demonstrably proves me correct. Or is your entire thesis based on the idea that people watch what they don't like? You claim the entirety of Season 7 & 8 were "horrible" and "terribly done" and "poorly written" - then why did viewer numbers go up during those seasons?

Somehow "more people hated it" but the viewership consistently rose over the last two seasons from previous six? Here:
10 million: More gross viewers watching in season 8 than season 7
I hate to post Wiki, but basic numbers should be ok from there. Viewer numbers rise consistently through the seasons, including from season 6 to 7, and 7 to 8.

You don't have to like it, and we don't have to agree. I would suggest we either part ways in the conversation, or, what I would rather do, is perhaps discuss the parts that we both did enjoy. I would much rather do that then argue.

[Chelly]

Objectively speaking the final season was the most viewed, and the most enjoyed. Nothing presented in this forum contradicts that conclusion.

Most viewed because of the build-up from the previous seasons. A lot of people were heavily invested in the story, despite it getting worse with each new season. If GoT started out with the quality of S7-S8, it never would have become this big of a cultural phenomenon.

Source on it being the "most enjoyed" season? Because from what I've seen all over the internet, and irl too, the final season was absolute dogshit that killed the franchise.

P.S. you say Seasons 7 & 8 weren't well received, I say it was. The only objective evidence we have, the number of people watching it, demonstrably proves me correct.

Lots of people watching something doesn't mean it's objectively good, lmao. What a fucking terrible metric.
A fucking lot of people watched The Room, does that mean it's an objectively good movie?

Friday by Rebecka Black was watched by a shitload of people, does that mean it's an objectively good song?

Or hell, let's even go political. A lot of people voted for Trump, does that make him an objectively good president?

[DeltrusDisc]

I see people posting things like this - I see writers desperate for readers pushing out what some want to hear. With respect, it cracks me up. The reasons for people disliking the last two seasons seem trivial at this point, compared with what D&D left as their legacy - possibly the greatest television series ever created.

I'm rewatching the series from the beginning, and the ending rings truer now with every episode that replays. The ending was fantastic, true to the story lines of all the main characters.

I think what people really don't like is that the ending they got (that George RR Martin told D&D of, remember) wasn't the one they wanted, and because of that they channel their bitterness into finding slights with the show. "Too rushed"; "should have taken longer"; "wasn't true to the characters" - all critiques leveled at the ending. And all wholly without merit.

The truth is that great series endings always upset some people - it would be almost impossible to say everyone can be happy with a great series' ending (I know of only one great series that ended well, without hardly a word in disfavor). And so we see with the critiques (if they can be called that) of the story D&D gave us. Desperate cries because those people didn't get what they wanted. But they did get what they deserved.

And the world got a terrific show with a fantastic ending.

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That's because you're watching it through the eyes of the book, rather than the show. Viewing the show without the benefit of the books, Arya's killing of the Night King was perfect, even using the move she showcased to Brienne. Your rendition of the "one they picked" was true to the story line they laid out in the show.

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Her killing the NK was perfect. "What do we say to death? Not today". Death was at the doorstep of the living, if Winterfell had fallen, the world of men would have died. And her story line was epic, even her ending with the Hound and which path she chose to take was perfect.

Couple things:
1) I did not read the books. Think I got 100~ pages into book 1, set it down, didn't pick it up again. Still want to, but I remember hearing my best friend complain about how boring book 4 or 5 was with Brienne's story.
2) I actually liked Arya killing the NK - however... there was a lot of stupidity and shit that just made no sense.
Why are the Dothraki in the last couple episodes? We saw them all DIE in their final charge against death. Let them have their honor. Same goes for most of the Unsullied.
I know some people think this was actually how Daenarys should be, but really, no. Her shtick was always that she didn't kill innocents. She didn't want to be Queen of the Ashes. She didn't want to rule through fear and rage and fire. She didn't want to be like her father was before her.
Nah, the series ended in a really stupid way. Cersei and Jamie died in a very lackluster, who cares way, also.

Stupid.

Honestly? I think you're just too unwilling to accept reality. GoT's last two seasons, especially season 8, did not live up to the earlier seasons. The quality went South and it went South hard. I get it, believe me. If you don't want to accept reality, fine, it's just a TV show, but don't be surprised when people disagree or think you're stupid. Anyone with any understanding of film can see the blatant lack of respect for the earlier seasons that was displayed in the final seasons. The lack of respect for the show's integrity. For the show's fanbase. For the people that put their all into the show. Look at how the actors and actresses even reacted when they were reading the script! They knew the ending was horseshit! Look at how Varys' actor reacted, he was offended. Characters stopped acting like themselves. That's not right. That's bad storytelling. D&D gave up because the biggest name ever was dangling in front of them:

STAR WARS.

And boy am I glad Disney ripped that rug out from under them. Even Disney can see what they did was stupid, insulting, and ultimately: lazy. Why can't you?

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Most viewed because of the build-up from the previous seasons. A lot of people were heavily invested in the story, despite it getting worse with each new season. If GoT started out with the quality of S7-S8, it never would have become this big of a cultural phenomenon.

Source on it being the "most enjoyed" season? Because from what I've seen all over the internet, and irl too, the final season was absolute dogshit that killed the franchise.



Lots of people watching something doesn't mean it's objectively good, lmao. What a fucking terrible metric.
A fucking lot of people watched The Room, does that mean it's an objectively good movie?

Friday by Rebecka Black was watched by a shitload of people, does that mean it's an objectively good song?

Or hell, let's even go political. A lot of people voted for Trump, does that make him an objectively good president?

No joke.

Out of the few dozen people I've spoken to, only 2 of them had a positive feeling for Season 8 after it was all said and done - and they were still a little cringy acting about it. Everyone else feels scorned.

[Varodoc]

My local newspaper literally reported the news that people were in outrage after The Bells aired, there was even a picture of Daenerys Targaryen (I wonder why people were outraged about The Bells and Daenerys), so don't go around saying that S8 was widely appreciated because no one believes you, let's be real

[Witchblade77]

the irony of you, Cubby claiming that I haven't presented any evidence, while you yourself are just going.. no you are wrong, without evidence, or the evidence that is so flimsy as to be laughable... is choice.

and that scene in a tower? taking something and pointing to it with, see foreshadowing is STILL. NOT. PROPER. CHARACTER. DEVELOPMENT. in fact - its yet another proof of the points I was making. DnD were "trying" to stick to major story beats whether they were earned or not. they did not in any way shape or form adopted to the changes THEY themselves made to the story and characters.

meh.

[Shurkien]

I dont get the point in

"Many ppl watch something, so they love it"

That means, avatar and avengers endgame are the best movies ever produced
But srsly.. nobody would say this lol

[Isilrien]

I was merely addressing the way I phrased my response to him specifically. There is indeed a sense of right and wrong that still can be discussed, sussing out the right and wrong...

I think you may be playing with semantics. I said that a discussion like this is based on subjective opinions, and you disagreed because there are right and wrong conclusions to be drawn by a story's events. You disagreed with the conclusions that another poster suggested, and then said what I called out here: that we're discussing opinions about what the right and wrong conclusions are, which "right" and "wrong" do not apply to (i.e., are not correctable). What one person sees as a right conclusion about certain character arcs, for example, is pure opinion. This is proved by this very thread: you think the final season (perhaps the last two) was great; others disagree with you (often strongly). Their opinions emerged from how they've perceived of the plot and character development, just as yours was. You're simply perceiving the same show in different ways.

[Berndorf]

GRRM probably mentally checked out on finishing the books circa 2014 when the show was making truckloads of money.

No reason to ever finish them when he's filthy rich.

The only thing that leaves me confused is that he has no kids. So who exactly is he milking the cow for?

The milk is coming regardless of whether he has kids or continues to write. He simply either has writer's block or no longer considers writing/finishing the series to be a major priority for himself any more. Which might continue until the day he dies or maybe one day he wakes up and figures out how to finish a book. I think book 6 is probably something like 75% done(which he basically said years ago) so it seems like he just got to a point in the story that he can't unravel and gave up on it.

[Shurkien]

He simply either has writer's block or no longer considers writing/finishing the series to be a major priority for himself any more.

Didnt he said a few years ago, that the series got so complex that it is really hard for him to conclude everything?
I think the main problem is that the story is way too entangled to be easily written