Community: Less about Fantasy more about numbers and performance

[kaminaris]

That...was a meme boss. It was...intentionally a meme boss. It's the first boss of the raid, designed to be the easiest. Like, I get it... different strokes, different folks but of all the encounters in BRF... Hans and Franz? Yikes.

Have you even played back then? Nobody went H&F as their first boss. Also guilds did struggle on it. Plenty of room to make it even harder by cutting reaction time.
Meme boss LOL.

[Relapses]

Have you even played back then? Nobody went H&F as their first boss. Also guilds did struggle on it. Plenty of room to make it even harder by cutting reaction time.
Meme boss LOL.

Yes, did you?

Looking at wowprogress data, it looks like a lot of guilds went Oregorger/Gruul first but H&F was very clearly entry level raid encounter difficulty. The only thing remotely difficult about H&F was rando raid members getting stomped but the ability was pretty well telegraphed and could be mostly negated by proper raid movement.

[Kallisto]

Funny people saying ffxiv punishes you for being good. Because no it does not. It punishes you for being a shit head or trying to shove your epeen down the throat of others who simply put don't want it.

For offering advice, not only is it allowed, it is even encouraged in many channels. It's how you go about it that counts. Nobody being polite and/or courteous when offering advice will get banned, ever for the reason of giving advice. Being an assholes when pushing advice is a first class ticket out of the game and fir good reason.

[Echo of Soul]

Have you even played back then? Nobody went H&F as their first boss. Also guilds did struggle on it. Plenty of room to make it even harder by cutting reaction time.
Meme boss LOL.

On mythic it was the easiest by a country mile. Guilds who were only capable of killing 1-3 bosses on mythic went there first, I know because I was in one of those guilds and yeah, the fight was a joke.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny people saying ffxiv punishes you for being good. Because no it does not. It punishes you for being a shit head or trying to shove your epeen down the throat of others who simply put don't want it.

For offering advice, not only is it allowed, it is even encouraged in many channels. It's how you go about it that counts. Nobody being polite and/or courteous when offering advice will get banned, ever for the reason of giving advice. Being an assholes when pushing advice is a first class ticket out of the game and fir good reason.

That's the real issue those people have with the game. It has nothing to do with being good, they want to be able to go postal on their party members and kick them the fuck out of their group for having the audacity not meeting their standards. When the game don't allow you do behave like a complete asshole they claim that they're "punished for being good". I believe that's textbook narcissism.

[kaminaris]

Yes, did you?

Looking at wowprogress data, it looks like a lot of guilds went Oregorger/Gruul first but H&F was very clearly entry level raid encounter difficulty. The only thing remotely difficult about H&F was rando raid members getting stomped but the ability was pretty well telegraphed and could be mostly negated by proper raid movement.

Oh the quick backpedaling or bad memory. Usually H&F was at ~50-100 wipes depending on guild, and still, is irrelevant as it was one of the best boss designs. The one I want. Reaction time based, not arbitrary number artificial "difficulty" that gets hilariously easier as your gear goes up. Can't skip phases, still have to do mechanics. Now remove the patterns, make it tighter and would be perfect. Operator was good example too.

- - - Updated - - -

On mythic it was the easiest by a country mile. Guilds who were only capable of killing 1-3 bosses on mythic went there first, I know because I was in one of those guilds and yeah, the fight was a joke.

It wasnt tho. Oregorger, darmac and gruul was a lot easier. Those were jokes. H&F was first that gave us any trouble. Think we had like ~50 wipes on it or so.

[Relapses]

Oh the quick backpedaling or bad memory. Usually H&F was at ~50-100 wipes depending on guild, and still, is irrelevant as it was one of the best boss designs. The one I want. Reaction time based, not arbitrary number artificial "difficulty" that gets hilariously easier as your gear goes up. Can't skip phases, still have to do mechanics. Now remove the patterns, make it tighter and would be perfect. Operator was good example too.

Jesus fuck dude, excuse the shit out of me for not having crystal clear memory of raid patterns from 6 years ago. The point I had remains: It wasn't a particularly interesting encounter, imo. I'm glad you liked it but I doubt (outside of you) there are tons of people in the "H&F BEST RAID ENCOUNTER EVR" fanclub.

[rhorle]

Nope. Addons bring convenience and tools to increase performance. There has always been a reliance on performance in WoW and its likely just the natural progression of the games at the time and mechanics that relied more on numbers then other stuff. Design evolved where numbers (resists, stats, etc) are less important and countering the mechanics are more important.

The focus is also there because of the skill gap and how optimized versus not optimized can change how large that skill gap is. This isn't a bad thing as everyone should be playing to the best they can and should be willing to learn how to play better. Addons and third-party tools like guides, sims, etc can help with this. The modern game though is less about numbers because the checks are not very strict unless you are in higher content.

Look at how you casually get gear that is Mythic +5/6 and just below normal. Normal is tuned to be cleared with gear less then that. There are players though that put to high of an emphasis on those numbers when they really are not that important over all. They are just important to gauge the performance of the player and areas to improve.

[Veggie50]

The value of anything you obtain in WoW is determined by relational value. This means that it’s value depends on how many others have obtained the same thing.

This means that you’re constantly looking to get an edge over your competition. High dps, effective healing, efficient routes and tasklists are all ways to obtain said edge. The game becomes more about focus on that edge, than about being a hero.

This was the case in vanilla too, but people over time have gotten better at quantifying their edge.

[Shaldy]

1. I stopped caring about fantasy in WoW when they kind of killed the world part. Layering, broken day-night cycles, teleports everywhere. There's only so much gaminess that you can introduce into the core loop, before you kill the suspense of disbelief.

2. Addons is one of the WoWs best features. I wouldn't play it if the game was limited to the default UI. There's no way. And I don't believe you can even build a default UI that would cater to such a large audience with so many different kinds of players. I'm not even talking about DBM or damage meter.
Just the fact that some specs have so many buffs, procs and rotation quirks to keep track of makes the default UI very frustrating to play with. I'm sure there are people who can do it, but information clarity is a big deal to me.

[cparle87]

DPS meters led to DPS rankings led to Min-Maxing being substantially easier. Eventually this snowballed from the world first chasers down to basically the entire playerbase. Now players are more concerned about a .1% DPS gain than they are about anything.

This. People will chase the tiniest of performance increases to the point it makes them hate the game. Legion and the "forced to run MoS till my eyes rot for AP." BFA and the "forced to run islands till my eyes rot for AP then grind for perfect corruptions." Even today I have people who have swapped covenants four or five times whenever the meta shifted. They complain about the difficulty of doing so constantly in guild chat but miss the underlying problem. You're either optimal or trash with nothing in between. Come to think of it this goes even further back to WoD when we had the trifecta thing. Instead of seeing the gems and bonus stats as gravy in addition to the meal they saw them as without them the meal wasn't even complete.

[LordVargK]

Or do what FFXIV does. You can read the combatlog as much as you want, but hassling/pointing out/etc of other players using same can get you banned. i.e. dick-measure all you want, but don't talk about any measuring of dicks not your own.

Nobody really does that in WoW anymore. You just get kicked from groups, if you're one of the reasons you fail the group activity.
Does FF14 even have comparable hard dungeon/raid content?

[Tradu]

It does compute. Wow had bosses like that. What I am describing is nowhere near of what you think I describe. Destiny 2 is nowhere near of what I want.
Use more of your imagination.

My Ideal boss would be tight reaction time during entire fight. Like unless you start moving immediately after some mechanic is going, you die. Some more diverse mechanic with tight reaction time that offers bonus when done correctly, and you die if you miss more than 1 (multi sided strike, more often).

Good example is hansgar and franzok. Thats probably one of the best bosses I progressed since MoP. Could be made even tighter (less reaction time). And quite possibly without patterns you can learn so every fight requires you to use your eyes.

Actually now that I think of. I would love more raids like BRF (with the exception of blackhand, gruul, kagraz) but harder in forms of reaction time.

That doesn't work in WoW, mechanics that require very quick reaction times fall apart once you realize that some classes are infinitely better at dealing with them and that the game just isn't built to update player positions etc as quickly as would be required. And the entire point of WoW raids is that you eventually learn the patterns. Even Hans & Franz in BRF wasn't a quick reaction time boss, it was learning the "dance" and doing it correctly. The mythic mechanic was literally the opposite of a reaction time mechanic, it was a planned, methodical dance.

And again, you claimed you want to be able to kill those bosses with people dead. So not only do you want DPS checks gone, you want people to be allowed to fuck up the one thing that remains (mechanics) and still kill the boss. It's absurd.

[Echo of Soul]

Nobody really does that in WoW anymore. You just get kicked from groups, if you're one of the reasons you fail the group activity.
Does FF14 even have comparable hard dungeon/raid content?

The dungeon content is a lot more relaxed, think WoW before m+. The raids on the other hand are very hard at the highest difficulty. People say that it's on the same level as mythic raids but I haven't done them myself so I can't confirm.

[kamuimac]

1)

Numbers are 100% essential for a RPG to exist but is anyone else getting the feeling the community of WoW turned into something weird?

My question is:
"Do you feel like WoW turned more into a numbers and performance check than a fantasy game?"

Im not saying this people are enjoying the game wrong.
To some this is the best part of the game.

But does anyone else feel weirded out by it a little?

--------

2)

If you dont mind, i also have another question

"Addons"

Do you think they are the reason why the WoW community ended like this?

wow is atm glorified excell spreadsheet thats what it is .

anything not meta not bis ? complete garbage you cannot get anywhere because of how crazy overtuned game is in every single aspec

no wonder people give up on retail and swap to much easier versions - classic and tbc

people enjoy easy games that anyone can play - retail does not provide this atm sadly

[Tradu]

wow is atm glorified excell spreadsheet thats what it is .

anything not meta not bis ? complete garbage you cannot get anywhere because of how crazy overtuned game is in every single aspec

no wonder people give up on retail and swap to much easier versions - classic and tbc

people enjoy easy games that anyone can play - retail does not provide this atm sadly

Retail is not overtuned. There's plenty of difficulties for all skill levels, people just refuse to accept that their skill level isn't enough to clear the hardest content and get the best loot. You're right about Classic, though. It's so easy that anybody can clear the hardest content and get the best loot, so if that's what people want, it's the game for them.

[Osmeric]

The value of anything you obtain in WoW is determined by relational value. This means that it’s value depends on how many others have obtained the same thing.

Yes, and this means the game is fundamentally doomed. It means that in each expansion, the lower segment of the player population doesn't get anything of value, and so will tend to leave. Unless the game is attracting sufficiently many new suckers to replace them, the game will bleed out over time, eating itself alive.

Musical Chairs Online is not a sustainable design, even if everyone tries their best to git gud.

[Echo of Soul]

Yes, and this means the game is fundamentally doomed. It means that in each expansion, the lower segment of the player population doesn't get anything of value, and so will tend to leave.

A lot of players prefer it that way. They'd rather have a game with 2 million players over 10 million if it means that they can get that special snowflake feeling.

[Redroniksre]

The dungeon content is a lot more relaxed, think WoW before m+. The raids on the other hand are very hard at the highest difficulty. People say that it's on the same level as mythic raids but I haven't done them myself so I can't confirm.

A lot of people try to say FFXIV is all baby levels of difficulty until Extreme, but that is just false or coming from people running Mythic in WoW. WoW will probably always have the hardest in terms of raiding, that is what it is good at. But FFXIV is far better at being very clear and telegraphing mechanics. I can go into a fight without knowing it and pick it up pretty quick. WoW there are mechanics that will kill you that will not be shown (or vaguely, the "swirls" compared to FFXIV telegraphs are laughable when it comes to clarity) so you have to do research before every fight otherwise you can end up getting domed pretty quick.

[Devilyaki]

ya the game is a esport now not a fantasy rpg

[Cosmic Janitor]

A lot of people try to say FFXIV is all baby levels of difficulty until Extreme, but that is just false or coming from people running Mythic in WoW. WoW will probably always have the hardest in terms of raiding, that is what it is good at. But FFXIV is far better at being very clear and telegraphing mechanics. I can go into a fight without knowing it and pick it up pretty quick. WoW there are mechanics that will kill you that will not be shown (or vaguely, the "swirls" compared to FFXIV telegraphs are laughable when it comes to clarity) so you have to do research before every fight otherwise you can end up getting domed pretty quick.

FFXIV's fights require alot preperation at the top end as well, some would even go as far as calling it a dance that needs to be memorized to a T. I think the biggest difference is that FFXIV has no addons, hence the telegraphs are better and more predictable, where WoW is in a constant arms race with addons by throwing more and more overlapping random stuff at you, that can only be handled by addons.