Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[ashblond]

I don't know, I think it's hard to say "I told you so" here because what 9.0 ended up being was something many people didn't predict - the longest x.0 patch in history. If Shadowlands had a raid/content release cycle similar in quality to that of Legion, we'd have had three raids by now alongside a new zone even.

If you'd asked me back in December 2020 if I thought Shadowlands would be doing good if the first content patch lasted for 9 months I'd have said absolutely not, but if it ended up similar to previous content release cyciles, I doubt we'd have seen such an exodus.

The main reason for exodus is not long 9.0 and late 9.1, but SL's inheritance of flaws from Legion/BFA and lack of innovation at the same time.

I also made another post back in December and explained my reasoning.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...te-Shadowlands

SL = BFA 2.0 = Legion 3.0. People won't like repeated stuff 3 times in a row.

A faster 9.1 or a better 9.2 won't solve it. Today's wow has much deeper problems than just that.

[Toybox]

The main reason for exodus is not long 9.0 and late 9.1, but SL's inheritance of flaws from Legion/BFA and lack of innovation at the same time.

I also made another post back in December and explained my reasoning.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...te-Shadowlands

SL = BFA 2.0 = Legion 3.0. People won't like repeated stuff 3 times in a row.

A faster 9.1 or a better 9.2 won't solve it. Today's wow has much deeper problems than just that.

I remember talking to you about it at the time, & appreciated then as I do now that we likely see the game from different perspectives. For me coming at it from a raiders POV, absolutely everything else is secondary so long as I can have fun with my guild (which died today so I'm 95% sure I'm not playing 9.1 either way, but that might be emotions talking).

Compared to previous expansions, we had so many people playing alts because Shadowlands expected so little to get characters optimal for mythic raiding compared to BfA. It was perfect for folks who wanted to get to a certain point & raidlog, & that point was super accessible. It was promised to be a chill expansion for us & so long as the content was exciting & steadily paced I think Shadowlands from a raiders POV would've continued to ride the chill hype wave. Sadly, I think that wave has slowly lost almost all of its momentum, & like Trumpcat says, I don't think 9.1 will bring it back.

(I almost definitely posted in that thread you made. I rated Shadowlands 7-8 at the time, but if I had to rate it now, it'd be under a 6 at the very least).

[uopayroll]

Shadowlands started strong, sure. I do like the zones, new raids and dungeons.

I heavily despise the new grinder content they want to force my characters through just so I can be on par for the content I actually enjoy. My guild mates also hate it. They don't do alts anymore. Which means they quit playing real fast. Which makes my raid and dungeons less fun when my guild is half sized and many friends no longer play. Now I've joined them.

In Blizzard's quest for player retention they have driven the players away.

You need to learn the program. If you do not like the grinder content, swipe left, and move on to the next one....

[Palapop]

A faster 9.1 or a better 9.2 won't solve it. Today's wow has much deeper problems than just that.

THIS! THIS THIS THIS!

They (blizz devs) don't realize that people are UNHAPPY with current "core" of the game!

They are sick of CHORES! AP grinds, "lgendary" grinds, legendary RNGs, essences/traits/conduits/soulbinds/renowns/quests..... people are SICK OF IT!
They don't want another 40 hrs weekly set of CHORES. They want to have FUN IN GAME!

Just rewind game to 5.4 patch.

You ding to max lvl> you instantly grind gear (just 1, maybe 2 "tiers" of gear ilvls (normal + hc (and not normal > hc > M+ 1 > m+ 5 > m+ 10 > m+ 15 > mythic) ) and you have FUN WITH BEST CLASS DESIGN!

You need to learn the program. If you do not like the grinder content, swipe left, and move on to the next one....

you say theres no FORCED grind in SL?

[Toybox]

you say theres no FORCED grind in SL?

Compared to previous expansions, it's absolutely negligible, & whatever power grind there is only really affects the competitive players (M+/Raids/Rated PvP), as everything else in the game can be done in leveling gear with no powers unlocked whatsoever.

Funnily enough, it's the competitive players who want these systems least of all... These systems exist to give people who don't guarantee their subscription fees by doing organized group content a reason to keep playing & keep subscribed. Raiders would've raided BFA non-stop without nonsense like Azerite, but would the guy who does nothing but world quests & LFR still play if he didn't have a carrot to chase?

[darkwarrior42]

I remember talking to you about it at the time, & appreciated then as I do now that we likely see the game from different perspectives. For me coming at it from a raiders POV, absolutely everything else is secondary so long as I can have fun with my guild (which died today so I'm 95% sure I'm not playing 9.1 either way, but that might be emotions talking).

Compared to previous expansions, we had so many people playing alts because Shadowlands expected so little to get characters optimal for mythic raiding compared to BfA. It was perfect for folks who wanted to get to a certain point & raidlog, & that point was super accessible. It was promised to be a chill expansion for us & so long as the content was exciting & steadily paced I think Shadowlands from a raiders POV would've continued to ride the chill hype wave. Sadly, I think that wave has slowly lost almost all of its momentum, & like Trumpcat says, I don't think 9.1 will bring it back.

I've said a few times (mostly on other sites) that Shadowlands is a very different expansion depending on whether you have a good team to play with. If you do and you can regularly do rated-PvP, M+, or Raiding, it's a fantastic expansion. If you don't, it's mediocre at best. I think they lost a lot of the people who aren't into the group side of WoW (by choice or by circumstance) early on because there's just nothing of value there. (The story's not bad, at least by WoW standards, but if you're playing an MMO and care about the story WoW is the wrong choice anyways.)

I also think you're right, in that the drought is killing a lot of the guilds and has robbed the expansion of most of its momentum. It's always harder to get people back than it is to keep them around in the first place.... and it's always painful when you see guilds start losing people. Even one or two losses can turn into 10, 20, or more, if things don't go well. Once those people leave and find other games, even 9.1 looking promising isn't always enough... if your guild is gone, what do you come back to? A new guild? It's not the same.

And if they're bleeding from both sides.... that's not good for the game.

I check in on MMO every once in a while to see how Blizzard games are doing.... and it's gotten very depressing of late. I do hope they can turn things around soon.

[ashblond]

As you say yourself in that post, it did seem as an unpopular opinion at the time. I agree with your reasons, but as I also posted above, we (the people who were excited for SL) didn't enter the expansion expecting all we saw at launch to be all we will be having for over half an year. I also doubt you knew we won't be getting anything for 6+ months.

You are right. Of course I didn't know the time of 9.1 patch.

My reasoning and prediction was not based on patch time or content drought either, but the general direction of the game's design.

There is nothing "new" in SL compared to Legion or BFA. I was not talking about new dungeons, raids or currencies etc. but something innovative. Shorter and faster patches won't solve the problem. Players don't like to repeat the same things over and over again. My prediction was purely based on this simple human nature and psychological effect.

If Blizzard doesn't learn any lesson from Legion/BFA/SL and continues the same design philosophy for 10.0, I don't have any expectation for next expansion either.

[Palapop]

Compared to previous expansions, it's absolutely negligible, & whatever power grind there is only really affects the competitive players (M+/Raids/Rated PvP), as everything else in the game can be done in leveling gear with no powers unlocked whatsoever.

You're not forced to do whole quest line in order to unlock conduits?

You're not forced to do whole quest line in order to unlock soulbinds?

You're not forced to do whole quest line in order to unlock Torghast?

You're not forced to do Torghast in order to get your legendary item (which is considered when all classes were designed)?

You're not forced to do pvp/pve in order to "learn" your desired conduit?


And all that just to be able TO PLAY YOUR CHARACTER ON DESIGNED LEVEL?!

And it's been like that since Legion. People are SICK of it!

Won't even mention the cancerous gearing/itemization philosophy (also haunts game since 7.0)

[Toybox]

I've said a few times (mostly on other sites) that Shadowlands is a very different expansion depending on whether you have a good team to play with. If you do and you can regularly do rated-PvP, M+, or Raiding, it's a fantastic expansion. If you don't, it's mediocre at best. I think they lost a lot of the people who aren't into the group side of WoW (by choice or by circumstance) early on because there's just nothing of value there. (The story's not bad, at least by WoW standards, but if you're playing an MMO and care about the story WoW is the wrong choice anyways.)

I also think you're right, in that the drought is killing a lot of the guilds and has robbed the expansion of most of its momentum. It's always harder to get people back than it is to keep them around in the first place.... and it's always painful when you see guilds start losing people. Even one or two losses can turn into 10, 20, or more, if things don't go well. Once those people leave and find other games, even 9.1 looking promising isn't always enough... if your guild is gone, what do you come back to? A new guild? It's not the same.

And if they're bleeding from both sides.... that's not good for the game.

I check in on MMO every once in a while to see how Blizzard games are doing.... and it's gotten very depressing of late. I do hope they can turn things around soon.

I agree entirely. With my guild disbanding, I'm facing that choice right now, and I think it's going to be the straw that breaks the camels back for me... I'm just so bored of this tier, apathetic towards 9.1 (when more resources actually seem to be going towards 9.2), and yeah... Losing my guild after 6 years of knowing some of these people? I'll stay in touch with them, play other games, etc, but why would I keep playing Shadowlands right now?

I want to play. For me, as someone who enjoys higher end PvE & messing around in PvP, WoW is by far the best playing hotkey MMO on the market. Other MMOs have better stories & some might argue better visuals, but for playing with your mates & having a good time, WoW is as good as it gets. If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who didn't have that, honestly, I'd not have played WoW for more than a decade As a single-player game, WoW is pretty damn horrible... But as an MMO? Even in times like this, it still has the capacity to host some truly memorable moments.

I'm actually sad it all ended up like this.

You're not forced to do whole quest line in order to unlock conduits?

You're not forced to do whole quest line in order to unlock soulbinds?

You're not forced to do whole quest line in order to unlock Torghast?

You're not forced to do Torghast in order to get your legendary item (which is considered when all classes were designed)?

You're not forced to do pvp/pve in order to "learn" your desired conduit?


And all that just to be able TO PLAY YOUR CHARACTER ON DESIGNED LEVEL?!

And it's been like that since Legion. People are SICK of it!

Won't even mention the cancerous gearing/itemization philosophy (also haunts game since 7.0)

At the expansion launch, the covenant campaign was drip-fed & took about 20 minutes a week max. It was not a big deal compared to BfA/Legion. Torghast was 30 minutes a week, & again, nowhere near as bad as BfA/Legion, where the timesink was much, much larger.

Conduit ranks make up such an insignifiant amount of DPS that they're not even worth talking about. You're not forced to do anything you wouldn't already be doing, & if you're not doing that content to begin with then you don't need the 0.02% DPS a conduit rank provides.

I'm not saying it's perfect (as like I said, I don't think the competitive playerbase wants any of this shit), but it's the best its been since WoD in terms of time investment. Getting an alt up & running is more daunting than it needs to be with the covenant campaign in its entirety hanging over you, & that's something I feel really needs to be addressed, but as I said, compared to Legion (one of my all time favourite expansions) & BfA? It's absolutely chill.

[kaminaris]

And all that just to be able TO PLAY YOUR CHARACTER ON DESIGNED LEVEL?!

And it's been like that since Legion. People are SICK of it!

Won't even mention the cancerous gearing/itemization philosophy (also haunts game since 7.0)

There is no such thing as forced in games, you are not forced to do anything. Period. You completely missed the point of why SL turned out to be so bad.

SL literally everything is optional to the point nothing matters so nothing is engaging -> core gameplay loop is broken.

Except for gold because gold can get you anywhere you want.

[Soon-TM]

SL = BFA 2.0 = Legion 3.0. People won't like repeated stuff 3 times in a row.

The way I see it:

Legion = Legion.

BfA = Legion with a misallocated budget.

SL = Legion with half its original budget.

[Toybox]

There is no such thing as forced in games, you are not forced to do anything. Period. You completely missed the point of why SL turned out to be so bad.

SL literally everything is optional to the point nothing matters so nothing is engaging -> core gameplay loop is broken.

Except for gold because gold can get you anywhere you want.

That's what made it good in my eyes - You ended up doing nothing but the content you enjoyed because there was little reason to do content you didn't. Unlike BfA, where you could find yourself at literally half the power level if you didn't get the appropriate essences & corruptions. I remember simming my Warrior without the right essences & corruptions, & I went from over 120k DPS to under 60k

[kaminaris]

At the expansion launch, the covenant campaign was drip-fed & took about 20 minutes a week max. It was not a big deal compared to BfA/Legion. Torghast was 30 minutes a week, & again, nowhere near as bad as BfA/Legion, where the timesink was much, much larger.

It was a HUGE deal. I want to be able to grind as much (or as little) as I want, without being handheld by the devs. If I want to "consume" the 18h story in just one day, so be it.

Amount of time is irrelevant unless you have no self restraint, but in such case visiting doctor might help. Designing games with a hardcore addicts in mind (so they won't hurt themselves) is never a good idea.

- - - Updated - - -

That's what made it good in my eyes - You ended up doing nothing but the content you enjoyed because there was little reason to do content you didn't. Unlike BfA, where you could find yourself at literally half the power level if you didn't get the appropriate essences & corruptions. I remember simming my Warrior without the right essences & corruptions, & I went from over 120k DPS to under 60k

Essences were deterministic, clear goal of what you needed to do. Problem is when something is unreliable to deterministically get AND is powerful like legiondaries.

[Toybox]

It was a HUGE deal. I want to be able to grind as much (or as little) as I want, without being handheld by the devs. If I want to "consume" the 18h story in just one day, so be it.

Amount of time is irrelevant unless you have no self restraint, but in such case visiting doctor might help. Designing games with a hardcore addicts in mind (so they won't hurt themselves) is never a good idea.

I'm with you on story timegating, but I believe the gating is their to protect their bottom line moreso than the health of the players.

& as for content like Azerite/AP, etc... I've said it before & I'll say it again: It's content for sheep. Raiders will 100% raid without all the nonsense systems of a BfA, PvPers will 100% PvP without them. But the "uber casual" that does LFR & world quests needs that carrot on a stick to keep him on his grind, & Blizzard need that huge chunk of the playerbase to keep things going.

[kaminaris]

The way I see it:

Legion = Legion.

BfA = Legion with a misallocated budget.

SL = Legion with half its original budget.

I really do not know why people even consider SL to be any similar to Legion or BfA. Honestly, the only thing they have in common is existence of M+. Core gameplay loop is completely different (due to lack of TF, bonus rolls and weekly bingo lottery being centric source of gear).

Legion = shot in the dark, BfA = legion done right, SL = 180deg and complete regress

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with you on story timegating, but I believe the gating is their to protect their bottom line moreso than the health of the players.

Like I said, designing games with hardcore addicts in mind is never a good idea, you end up hurting your normal players instead.

& as for content like Azerite/AP, etc... I've said it before & I'll say it again: It's content for sheep. Raiders will 100% raid without all the nonsense systems of a BfA, PvPers will 100% PvP without them. But the "uber casual" that does LFR & world quests needs that carrot on a stick to keep him on his grind, & Blizzard need that huge chunk of the playerbase to keep things going.

You don't realize that people did not actively farm for AP. Not even in legion. It's not a content so it cannot be called "content for sheeps", its just a suplementarny system that gives lil power every time you do something in game. Your view is of a hardcore addict.

Legion sole issue with AP was that it was token and it was spec specific. BfA AP was pretty much best iteration.

[Palapop]

I really do not know why people even consider SL to be any similar to Legion or BfA. Honestly, the only thing they have in common is existence of M+. Core gameplay loop is completely different (due to lack of TF, bonus rolls and weekly bingo lottery being centric source of gear).

Legion = shot in the dark, BfA = legion done right, SL = 180deg and complete regress

lol what?

weekly bingo lottery still exists. and it is centric source of highest ilvl drops (since mythic raid gives 0 loot now).

[kaminaris]

lol what?

weekly bingo lottery still exists. and it is centric source of highest ilvl drops (since mythic raid gives 0 loot now).

Read my post again. Weekly bingo lottery did not exist before SL. Its just SL thing. And because of lack of TF you cannot otherwise get something equal/better UNLESS you play mythic AND get lucky (low droprates, no bonus rolls) or just buy pvp boost (the only semi deterministic gearing).

Weekly chest was not comparable and was not main source of gear.

[Palapop]

Read my post again. Weekly bingo lottery did not exist before SL. Its just SL thing. And because of lack of TF you cannot otherwise get something equal/better UNLESS you play mythic AND get lucky (low droprates, no bonus rolls) or just buy pvp boost (the only semi deterministic gearing).

Weekly chest was not comparable and was not main source of gear.

You're saying that SL "great vault" and legion/bfa "M+ chests" is not the same thing?

lol...

[Couchpotato2013]

You're saying that SL "great vault" and legion/bfa "M+ chests" is not the same thing?

lol...

This. In bfa like why spam out anything over a 10 in season 1-3, or 15 in s4 to get a better cut of death. Likely would never happen. All you should have done was spam content up to ilvl cap, then maintain at the one key a week/bosses needed for week in order to get ideal items. Otherwise boring. Great vault offset that by giving more selection then has all the hail mary emphasis on it being the primary way to gear. Which then creates apathy again.

[ashblond]

The way I see it:

Legion = Legion.

BfA = Legion with a misallocated budget.

SL = Legion with half its original budget.

The way I see it:

Legion = 2 major innovations: endgame progression system (borrowed power system) and a new endgame format M+

BFA = same systems as Legion + Islands/warfronts

SL = same systems as Legion + Maw/Torghast

I don't think BFA or SL contents themselves are worse than Legion. But the timing (BFA/SL is later than Legion) made them worse, because players don't want repeated stuff.

If Legion and SL are switched, SL is 7.0 and Legion is 9.0, I am 100% sure everyone will say SL was the greatest expansion and Legion sucks.

BFA/SL's problem is the repetition of Legion/BFA's core (excessive systems, timegated contents, grinding chores, etc.) and the failure of its own innovation (islands/warfront, maws/torghast) at the same time.

If Blizzard can't see this and repeats it again in 10.0, then I can predict right now: Next expansion will be the worst one ever. hehe