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  1. #81
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Death's paleness doesn't represent death. All of the Endless in the comics were pale. Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Despair, Desire, Delight/Delirium...all of them. It has nothing to do with being goth. Death's fashion choices are what makes her "goth"...and, just so you are aware, Black people can be goth too.

    https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploa...y=90&strip=all
    I know they are pale, i meant its special for death, since, well, she is death

    this is like native americans when they saw white people for the first time, they assumed they were dead, or ghosts, they assumed they were their dead relatives wandering around. That's instinctive..cuz, well people become paler when they die...kinda narrows it down what kind of casting choice to make?..

    yes, everyone can be goth, do you see many black goth girls?...is there any following? that paid for gaiman to end up where he is today?..finding a random picture on the internet n try to say there's some huge black goth scene?? uh...what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If I gave you a feed of my webcam, you'd see the full collection of the Sandman trades on my shelf behind me. There's a reason I'm interested enough to be posting here, and I get pretty irked when someone tries to speak on the behalf of the "fans" and put words in my (our) mouths, rather than admitting it's just their own petty grievances.
    You lost all credibility in the star wars threads. You think it's some ideological battle, n will defend movies regardless of how shit they are.

    How you conduct yourself here, then your collection at home is irrelevant. If your not being honest poster, then I am as interested as in Cubby's current posting in the other thread where he now for days have been in the game of thrones thread saying how awesome season 8 is...

  2. #82
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    You lost all credibility in the star wars threads. You think it's some ideological battle, n will defend movies regardless of how shit they are.
    Yes, me having an opinion is me making this an "ideological battle".

    Project harder, maybe? Me disagreeing with you on some basic narrative structures is not a grand ideological battleground.

    And here, it isn't even that. You have no narrative or portrayal issues to complain about. You're literally just angry because an actress isn't white enough for you, even though the author themselves is supporting their casting in that role. Somehow, you think your prejudicial opinion on the character matters more than anyone else's, even the author's.

    Edit: This, again, is not even a new idea. Here's Dream from a section of the Sandman series talking to the first woman he ever loved, Nada;



    That's Dream on the left. The black guy with dreads. Literally the same guy as this;



    This isn't a death/rebirth thing, either. They do that later, but it's in part because of how he treated Nada that he felt he needed to; the two incarnations there are literally the same being, just from two different perspectives.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-06-01 at 08:09 PM.


  3. #83
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    I don't understand how someone can claim to be a fan of Gaiman's works and yet complain about an adaptation being too "woke."

    Sandman started in the 80s and was more progressive then than a lot of media being published now.

    Gaiman wanted more actor diversity within the Endless. So what? As has been stated countless times, they have no fixed physical appearance.

  4. #84
    Dammit, Neil. A nonbinary actor playing a nonbinary character? It's so perfect casting it's wrong! Am I doing it right?

  5. #85
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I don't understand how someone can claim to be a fan of Gaiman's works and yet complain about an adaptation being too "woke."

    Sandman started in the 80s and was more progressive then than a lot of media being published now.

    Gaiman wanted more actor diversity within the Endless. So what? As has been stated countless times, they have no fixed physical appearance.
    It's not about diversity, but shredding established characters, then saying the fans that liked those to gtfo

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    I know they are pale, i meant its special for death, since, well, she is death
    It isn't. She's no more pale than her brothers and sisters. Her skin colour has nothing to do with death. If that were the case...why are Dream, Desire, Delight/Delirium all the same white? Wouldn't they all be coloured to match their aspects?

    this is like native americans when they saw white people for the first time, they assumed they were dead, or ghosts, they assumed they were their dead relatives wandering around. That's instinctive..cuz, well people become paler when they die...kinda narrows it down what kind of casting choice to make?..
    So, you think the ghosts of black people would be white too then?

    yes, everyone can be goth, do you see many black goth girls?...is there any following? that paid for gaiman to end up where he is today?..finding a random picture on the internet n try to say there's some huge black goth scene?? uh...what?
    You were the one saying they couldn't make a black person look goth. I was just showing you an example.

  7. #87
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    Dammit, Neil. A nonbinary actor playing a nonbinary character? It's so perfect casting it's wrong! Am I doing it right?
    Gave zero fucks about it, besides death my other issue was patton oswalt, that voice only your soccer mom loves n thinks he is funny in all the stupid sitcoms he is in...how jarring. But meh, raven, a minor nitpick really, if thor kat can do an ok job, i suppose he could too..

    How endus believes in gaiman after choosing kat for voice, is anybodys guess.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    It's not about diversity, but shredding established characters, then saying the fans that liked those to gtfo
    If all you liked about those characters was their skin colour (which is not caucasian, BTW)... then yeah...you can GTFO.

  9. #89
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    It's not about diversity, but shredding established characters, then saying the fans that liked those to gtfo
    Nothing about this casting "shreds" the character. You're just reacting badly because a black actor was cast. Your only issue is that Death won't be "caucasian enough" for you, and it doesn't go any deeper than that for you; that's the only thing you care about with regards to the character or the casting.

    Because you're sure not reacting against Howell-Baptiste's portrayal of the character or even her look, since we've had nothing but the casting announcement.


  10. #90
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    -snip-
    you, starwars-endus, gameofthronesSeason8Cubby, I think its just waste paying any attention to what u guys post, I don't mind talking with people that disagree with me, but you don't post honestly, you deliberately change meaning of what people write to just further go down the flame war rabbit hole..

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Gave zero fucks about it, besides death my other issue was patton oswalt, that voice only your soccer mom loves n thinks he is funny in all the stupid sitcoms he is in...how jarring. But meh, raven, a minor nitpick really, if thor kat can do an ok job, i suppose he could too..

    How endus believes in gaiman after choosing kat for voice, is anybodys guess.
    See, complaints about Patton Oswalt and Kat Dennings are actually more relevant...because those complaints are about their acting ability and not their skin color.

  12. #92
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    you, starwars-endus, gameofthronesSeason8Cubby, I think its just waste paying any attention to what u guys post, I don't mind talking with people that disagree with me, but you don't post honestly, you deliberately change meaning of what people write to just further go down the flame war rabbit hole..
    What, exactly, are we misrepresenting?

    You're attacking Neil Gaiman, the casting director for the show, and the rest of us, because you're so very upset that a black person was cast for a role that has fuck-all to do with racial identity.

    How are we misrepresenting that?

    And then the dismissal of our positions because you don't like our opinions. That just means you disagree. And? Doesn't mean you're right. Hell, you even completely misrepresented my positions, in doing so, because you aren't actually arguing against what I actually said in that earlier thread. Because you made no effort to actually understand what I was saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    See, complaints about Patton Oswalt and Kat Dennings are actually more relevant...because those complaints are about their acting ability and not their skin color.
    Patton Oswalt for Matthew's fine; Matthew's pretty much exactly like that in the comic anyway. Snarky, out of touch with the otherworldly stuff because he's new to all that stuff, weirdly 4th-wall-y, Oswalt's fine.

    Kat Dennings, I like in most of what she does. Not 2 Broke Girls, but I think even she knew that was garbage while she was making it. Can't speak to the audiobook stuff because I haven't listened to it.


  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    you, starwars-endus, gameofthronesSeason8Cubby, I think its just waste paying any attention to what u guys post, I don't mind talking with people that disagree with me, but you don't post honestly, you deliberately change meaning of what people write to just further go down the flame war rabbit hole..
    What, exactly, am I being dishonest about?

    That Death's paleness has nothing to do with her being the aspect of death? It doesn't. All the Endless have the same skin tone. From Destiny all the way down to Delirium. There is nothing special about Death's skin tone.

    And their skin tone is not caucasian anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    Patton Oswalt for Matthew's fine; Matthew's pretty much exactly like that in the comic anyway. Snarky, out of touch with the otherworldly stuff because he's new to all that stuff, weirdly 4th-wall-y, Oswalt's fine.

    Kat Dennings, I like in most of what she does. Not 2 Broke Girls, but I think even she knew that was garbage while she was making it. Can't speak to the audiobook stuff because I haven't listened to it.
    Yeah, I agree. I'm just saying...those kind of complaints are reasonable...because they have to do with the actors perceived ability to carry the role in which they were cast and not just that their skin tone doesn't match.

  14. #94
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    See, complaints about Patton Oswalt and Kat Dennings are actually more relevant...because those complaints are about their acting ability and not their skin color.
    If you wanna go full eddie murphy, all in to portray a character to the letter, if ur a black man portraying an old jewish man n can pull it of. kudos.
    but don't come saying not having done a transformation makes the character the same thing.



    we all know what picture in the head we get if we hear the word "goth teen girl" AND the whole goth/metal/punk followers are honored, that PAID FOR gaiman's career. I'm supposed to smile when being shown the middle finger?

    Don't have time for this anymore, or care now, got some ulduar runs to do..bb
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2021-06-01 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #95
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Yeah, I agree. I'm just saying...those kind of complaints are reasonable...because they have to do with the actors perceived ability to carry the role in which they were cast and not just that their skin tone doesn't match.
    Yeah, I mostly just wanted to present my own take just to provide a contrast against the rest of my posts, to indicate that maybe the difference is about the character of the argument I'm responding to.


  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    That Death's paleness has nothing to do with her being the aspect of death? It doesn't. All the Endless have the same skin tone. From Destiny all the way down to Delirium. There is nothing special about Death's skin tone.
    Does that even MATTER though. I'd wager it was an aesthetic decision given the medium (graphic novel) more than anything, and in a different medium different aesthetic decisions are 100% justified and totally fine. Unless there's some serious story element tied into the fact that they share a skin tone - and to my knowledge there isn't, not even close - it's just not relevant.

    Nobody would complain about people's eye color or whatever either, even if it was different from the source material (unless, again, there's some serious story reason). But somehow skin color changes everything? Please.

    I'm more worried about the story being represented well, I couldn't give two fucks about how the actors look. All I care about is can they act, and are they given good material to act with.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post

    we all know what picture in the head we get if we hear the word "goth teen girl" AND the whole goth/metal/punk followers are honored, that PAID FOR gaiman's career. I'm supposed to smile when being shown the middle finger?
    Once again, if the only thing about Death that you think matters is that she was White (Not caucasian but WHITE) then yeah...you can have that middle finger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Does that even MATTER though. I'd wager it was an aesthetic decision given the medium (graphic novel) more than anything, and in a different medium different aesthetic decisions are 100% justified and totally fine. Unless there's some serious story element tied into the fact that they share a skin tone - and to my knowledge there isn't, not even close - it's just not relevant.
    No, it's not relevant at all what their skin tone is. It's not even relevant that their skin tone matches with each other. They aren't human. Their skin tone is not human.

    They are Aspects taking on a human-like appearance.

  18. #98
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Does that even MATTER though. I'd wager it was an aesthetic decision given the medium (graphic novel) more than anything, and in a different medium different aesthetic decisions are 100% justified and totally fine. Unless there's some serious story element tied into the fact that they share a skin tone - and to my knowledge there isn't, not even close - it's just not relevant.

    Nobody would complain about people's eye color or whatever either, even if it was different from the source material (unless, again, there's some serious story reason). But somehow skin color changes everything? Please.
    And as I linked above, the comic is pretty explicit that the pale skin is just a current-era affectation by the Endless which doesn't have much basis, and, indeed, could even be argued to be the result of the author/artist's perception shaping their appearance, as their appearance is often shaped differently in flashbacks to other eras, as with Morpheus/Kaickul. The show's a new framing, so a new perspective shift really just . . . makes legitimate sense. There was never anything about the pale skin that was necessary or fundamental to the Endless, as can be seen in various other appearances they present as are present throughout. Desire and Dream are mutable in different ways, directly, but Dream himself has a bunch of different looks throughout the series, in flashbacks or from non-human perspectives.

    I'm more worried about the story being represented well, I couldn't give two fucks about how the actors look. All I care about is can they act, and are they given good material to act with.
    My concerns are much the same; a lot of Sandman is HIGHLY philosophical and in a "no easy/definitive answers" kind of sense. The Good Place did a lot to bring complex philosophy forward, but it had to do so REALLY carefully. Even Morpheus' own cycle of death, grief, and rebirth is . . . not simple, since he is fundamentally not the Morpheus who died, but also fundamentally is the Morpheus who has always been. Both, at the same time. Without that being a contradiction. It plays with concepts of self and identity and continuity that are pretty heady stuff.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-06-01 at 08:44 PM.


  19. #99
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Despair an obese character, is being played by an obese actress. Makes sense.

    Death, a thin character (because we associate death with the grim reaper, is played by...an obese actress.

    They did say the show should take part in current age, n well many people are def fatter than in the 80s, n incr mortality to covid-19.
    Yet in gaiman's defense of casting choices he now claims he isn't abandoning the books, which is contradictory.

    While he is at it, he should re-make the comics as well. Just make death n despair the same character n take despairs persona on some of the other endless.

    I think gaiman should keep redoing things, even this show, there's no reason to respect fans, he knows what's best n stuff.

  20. #100
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Wait. What? Are you suggesting that Kirby Howell-Baptiste is obese?
    She definetely isn't looking like a half anoretic teen. Too much baby fat.
    Ofc could do something about her hair, that's the easy part. It makes her look even fatter. Too puffy.

    If I died cuz i got fat n met an obese Death standing in front of me, i'd demand to see the manager. I'd even threaten to sue.

    fer sure

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