"Sorry we are closed nobody wants to work here anymore due to government handouts"

[Krakan]

Human empathy is consistent throughout all human societies to the degree that lack of empathy is literally considered a mental illness, a deficiency in your brain either chemically or structurally. So no; it is not an "old question", or at least not an old question that's gone unanswered.



When the facts contradict your statements, just move the goalposts and pretend that you weren't proven wrong, eh?

You have nothing to back your claims. Whereas there is evidence that contradicts you. Makes it an easy analysis.

All societies? Because I can show you modern examples of cultures that leave people dying on the street including children while not providing aid or even acknowledging them...in some cases taking an extra moment to murder the victims of accidents.

The world isn't the west and I think some part of you knows that.

[PACOX]

People are refusing to go back to work for 1200 a month. Makes you wonder what kind of crap and pay they had to put up with before. If you don't support your people through fair wages then you're going to have to support them through taxes.

Nothing in life is free

[kamuimac]

People are refusing to go back to work for 1200 a month. Makes you wonder what kind of crap and pay they had to put up with before. If you don't support your people through fair wages then you're going to have to support them through taxes.

Nothing in life is free

well as long as others dont mind to financialy support such leeches ? all power to them

im sure a lot of people given choice whether to work and earn more or chill out and get 1200 $ from goverment will automaticly choose the latter

[Glorious Leader]

All societies? Because I can show you modern examples of cultures that leave people dying on the street including children while not providing aid or even acknowledging them...in some cases taking an extra moment to murder the victims of accidents.

The world isn't the west and I think some part of you knows that.

Yes all societes. The cruelty that some individuals perpetrate on others is not counter indicative of this in fact endus literally makes this point..

[Endus]

All societies? Because I can show you modern examples of cultures that leave people dying on the street including children while not providing aid or even acknowledging them...in some cases taking an extra moment to murder the victims of accidents.

The world isn't the west and I think some part of you knows that.

...

Wherein you try to argue that empathy is not consistent, by trying to appeal to my sense of empathy.

I never suggested that empathy was the only tentpole of the human psyche. But its existence is why dehumanization of "undesirables" is such a constant; it's necessary to try to short-circuit that empathic sense.

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well as long as others dont mind to financialy support such leeches ? all power to them

im sure a lot of people given choice whether to work and earn more or chill out and get 1200 $ from goverment will automaticly choose the latter

So? Why is that a problem?

People who don't want to work are convinced to not waste employers time. Seems like a positive.

[Katchii]

It's the belief that nobility is the exception rather then the expected among people. Saint or sinner it's a old question.

It's also complete horseshit that you think the question hasn't been answered.

The only people still asking this question are people who have their heads firmly and deeply stuck up their own ass and aren't paying attention, or are only paying attention to all the negativity and stay in their little echo chamber.

Stop with your attempt at trying to be philosophical, you look ridiculous.

[kasuke06]

...

Wherein you try to argue that empathy is not consistent, by trying to appeal to my sense of empathy.

I never suggested that empathy was the only tentpole of the human psyche. But its existence is why dehumanization of "undesirables" is such a constant; it's necessary to try to short-circuit that empathic sense.

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So? Why is that a problem?

People who don't want to work are convinced to not waste employers time. Seems like a positive.

So you want a class of the indolent who take pride in being feckless, lazy wastes of life and then a class of poor fuckers being worked to death to support them. Bold stance, being pro-slavery in 2021.

[Endus]

So you want a class of the indolent who take pride in being feckless, lazy wastes of life and then a class of poor fuckers being worked to death to support them. Bold stance, being pro-slavery in 2021.

It's like you haven't read any of my posts.

I suggested a UBI. Anyone who chooses to work makes additional income. If they don't like the conditions of expectations of their employer, or the amount they're earning, they can quit and rely on the UBI. No one could be "worked to death" by any motivation but their own.

Also, kudos on labelling homemakers, the disabled, children and retirees, creatives working to make their mark, and so forth as "feckless, lazy wastes of life". Of the two of us, you're the one arguing that everyone must be faceless cogs for the machine and that living their lives should be secondary.

[kasuke06]

It's like you haven't read any of my posts.

I suggested a UBI. Anyone who chooses to work makes additional income. If they don't like the conditions of expectations of their employer, or the amount they're earning, they can quit and rely on the UBI. No one could be "worked to death" by any motivation but their own.

Also, kudos on labelling homemakers, the disabled, children and retirees, creatives working to make their mark, and so forth as "feckless, lazy wastes of life". Of the two of us, you're the one arguing that everyone must be faceless cogs for the machine and that living their lives should be secondary.

Wow, you claim I'm not reading and then dedicate half your post to stuffing lies in my mouth to claim you're noble? Pot, it's kettle, you're black as sin.

Love this, how no one "has to" work. Okay, then who's picking your fruits? Who's cleaning toilets? Who's putting in their 8 hours in the blistering heat to make sure the roads aren't shit when you go on your 9th vacation of the year? Who's doing any number of the shitty jobs that can't be fully automated due to requiring judgement, decision making, or a human touch?

Unfortunately, there are quite a few jobs that only get done through threat of not being able to afford food/lodging.

[Endus]

Wow, you claim I'm not reading and then dedicate half your post to stuffing lies in my mouth to claim you're noble? Pot, it's kettle, you're black as sin.

Love this, how no one "has to" work. Okay, then who's picking your fruits? Who's cleaning toilets? Who's putting in their 8 hours in the blistering heat to make sure the roads aren't shit when you go on your 9th vacation of the year? Who's doing any number of the shitty jobs that can't be fully automated due to requiring judgement, decision making, or a human touch?

You claim I'm stuffing lies in your mouth, but the only way this counter-argument even works is if you're insisting that forcing people to take shitty jobs for bad pay is the way things should be.

My proposal that maybe we should pay people enough to get them to want to do those jobs, that's what you're protesting so hard against.

[kasuke06]

You claim I'm stuffing lies in your mouth, but the only way this counter-argument even works is if you're insisting that forcing people to take shitty jobs for bad pay is the way things should be.

My proposal that maybe we should pay people enough to get them to want to do those jobs, that's what you're protesting so hard against.

Again, never said that. Your point presented that I responded to originally was that we should support people who have no wish to work in any capacity. Why? Why should those people enjoy the fruits of other's labor if they put nothing in and have no intent to ever do so?

Since you seem to have forgotten, I am pro UBI, I just hate the idea that lazy fuckers that will abuse the system(and don't even pretend for a nanosecond that this will suddenly lead to everyone just pursuing their dream job. A whole lot of people have a "dream job" of sitting on their ass, shoveling down processed food and staring at whatever they're told is good on TV until some poor fucker has to drag their bloated carcass into an oversized coffin) and I would prefer to solve for that. See, I just hate people that try to get something for nothing. I still want to trust people, but I know people, and people as a whole are not worthy of trust.

Yeah, increasing pay for crap jobs is a very solid form of encouragement. My first job was cleaning out the neighbors dog run, and they did not have small dogs. Paid well for how efficiently I was able to get it done.

[Katchii]

Wow, you claim I'm not reading and then dedicate half your post to stuffing lies in my mouth to claim you're noble? Pot, it's kettle, you're black as sin.

Love this, how no one "has to" work. Okay, then who's picking your fruits? Who's cleaning toilets? Who's putting in their 8 hours in the blistering heat to make sure the roads aren't shit when you go on your 9th vacation of the year? Who's doing any number of the shitty jobs that can't be fully automated due to requiring judgement, decision making, or a human touch?

Unfortunately, there are quite a few jobs that only get done through threat of not being able to afford food/lodging.

As @Endus has already commented on. If those kinds of jobs were actually paid a living wage, you wouldn't have a shortage of people willingly performing them. One of the primary reasons those jobs are SO unwanted is because they pay terribly. Construction workers work in similar conditions and there's an abundance of them, can you guess what the difference is?

The only two options some people seem to think of are keep things the way they are and "something different, and somewhat extreme, that won't work because..."

Why is that? Why can't there be incremental improvements? Why is paying people a living wage SUCH a horrible, horrifying, infeasible idea? Because if we started doing that, MANY of the problems you bring up would be addressed practically overnight.

[ghotihook]

As @Endus has already commented on. If those kinds of jobs were actually paid a living wage, you wouldn't have a shortage of people willingly performing them. One of the primary reasons those jobs are SO unwanted is because they pay terribly. Construction workers work in similar conditions and there's an abundance of them, can you guess what the difference is?

The only two options some people seem to think of are keep things the way they are and "something different, and somewhat extreme, that won't work because..."

Why is that? Why can't there be incremental improvements? Why is paying people a living wage SUCH a horrible, horrifying, infeasible idea? Because if we started doing that, MANY of the problems you bring up would be addressed practically overnight.

I wouldn't say there is an abundance of construction workers. Almost every construction field is struggling to fill their spots. Plumbing, framing, electricians, hell even tilers are impossible to find. People just don't want to do manual labor. My brother made over $100K last year as a journeyman plumber and they have had to hold jobs because they don't have enough people.

[Endus]

Again, never said that. Your point presented that I responded to originally was that we should support people who have no wish to work in any capacity. Why? Why should those people enjoy the fruits of other's labor if they put nothing in and have no intent to ever do so?

I flatly deny that this "fruits of another's labor" claim has any basis in the first place.

A UBI is paid out by the government, using tax revenues.

Unless you're arguing against the very idea of taxation itself, using the "fruits of other's labor" is just how governments function at all, and I don't see how it's grounds for any kind of complaint. I support a UBI for the same reasons I support universal healthcare or public education or police and fire servicing or any of government's other base functions.

Since you seem to have forgotten, I am pro UBI, I just hate the idea that lazy fuckers that will abuse the system(and don't even pretend for a nanosecond that this will suddenly lead to everyone just pursuing their dream job. A whole lot of people have a "dream job" of sitting on their ass, shoveling down processed food and staring at whatever they're told is good on TV until some poor fucker has to drag their bloated carcass into an oversized coffin) and I would prefer to solve for that. See, I just hate people that try to get something for nothing. I still want to trust people, but I know people, and people as a whole are not worthy of trust.

Then you don't support a UBI. Your perspective is still primarily focused on the idea that wage slavery should be the baseline assumption for a citizen; that they should be forced to labor for their "betters".

Why do you think they're "lazy fuckers" in the first place? There are myriad good reasons to not want to work.

And why would you want to push those people into the workforce, in the first place? If you're worried about exploiters, surely letting them rely on their UBI alone is preferable to forcing them into workplaces where they'll seek to exploit their employers for self-gain? Letting them do whatever else they want is better for them, it's better for employers too, and they'd be getting a UBI stipend anyway (since that's, y'know, how UBI works.) Where's the negative?

[Katchii]

Since you seem to have forgotten, I am pro UBI, I just hate the idea that lazy fuckers that will abuse the system

SNIP

I'm with you on this, but I don't think it's worth trying to weed these people out or to fix this problem of trying to ensure these people don't get anything or whatever at the expense of helping everyone else who actually needs it. Because your answer to this is to basically say "fuck them" which I'm not at all on board with. Honestly, I think even lazy fuckers as you put it would end up helping society under a UBI because they'd be able to actually be able to pursue what they WANT rather than what someone is telling them they have to. Will they ever end up being hard workers? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they're worthless. That said, I'm not under the delusion that there won't be literal leeches who do nothing besides suck up resources...I won't talk about them. But I will say, again, I don't think worrying about trying to make sure they don't get a UBI is worth the effort. Because even THEY will take that money and put it back into the economy, which is a good thing.

[Endus]

I wouldn't say there is an abundance of construction workers. Almost every construction field is struggling to fill their spots. Plumbing, framing, electricians, hell even tilers are impossible to find. People just don't want to do manual labor. My brother made over $100K last year as a journeyman plumber and they have had to hold jobs because they don't have enough people.

Plumbers aren't construction laborers, they're specialists who require pretty significant training and such. You can't just up and decide to be a plumber tomorrow; you could with construction laborer. You're not making six figures as a laborer. For the specialists, there's gonna be up-front costs for training and licensing and tools that act as pretty significant barriers to entry for many; the process takes about 5 years here in Ontario, and the costs can be into low five figures over that time. So there's your problem; if you've got the time and funds to invest in developing a career, do you pick plumbing? Or something else?

Also, "over $100k" is just "comfortably middle class". We need to stop pretending it's a ton of money.

[Katchii]

I wouldn't say there is an abundance of construction workers. Almost every construction field is struggling to fill their spots. Plumbing, framing, electricians, hell even tilers are impossible to find. People just don't want to do manual labor. My brother made over $100K last year as a journeyman plumber and they have had to hold jobs because they don't have enough people.

There's only so many construction companies, and only so much money to be had. In my area, I've seen no shortage of any of those vocations. There will almost always be more work than there are workers. I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily.

Is your brothers company hiring?

I don't know if this is the case, but I know many industries are incredibly slow to hire additional people to keep up with high demand because they're wary of that demand slowing down and then now having an over abundance of people.

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I flatly deny that this "fruits of another's labor" claim has any basis in the first place.

A UBI is paid out by the government, using tax revenues.

I'm certain this is what he's referring to. Tax revenue is very clearly the fruits of another's labor as there can be no taxes if there's no money being generated by an individual. You can't take fruit from a tree that doesn't exist. But once someone else grows it, the government will come and take from it. That's what taxes are.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but let's be realistic about where taxes are coming from. What they're being used for is what we're talking about here. What's being said is basically: money taken from me will partly be used to fund someone else (among all the other things taxes are used for). Yes they're taxes, and it's the government that's spending it, but they got that money from people who are working and generating revenue that can even BE taxed.

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Also, "over $100k" is just "comfortably middle class". We need to stop pretending it's a ton of money.

I don't think anyone is claiming it is a ton of money, but it's very clearly enough to be comfortable, and puts you in the top 10-15% of earners in the country.

[Captain N]

Plumbers aren't construction laborers, they're specialists who require pretty significant training and such. You can't just up and decide to be a plumber tomorrow; you could with construction laborer.

And just to note that being a tradesman doesn't exempt you from a job loss either especially in the last 15 years or so. The 2008 Recession and the 2020 Pandemic have been crippling to the trades. When the new house development dries up and the repair work is all that's left a lot of those guys end up out of work for prolonged periods of time. UBI would be a great help for those folks to be able to get by on top of their unemployment insurance. Unfortunately we've seen it right here on these very forums that folks who get paid more via unemployment should just take a job that pays lower than what they're getting from benefits or they're leeches.

[Endus]

I'm certain this is what he's referring to. Tax revenue is very clearly the fruits of another's labor as there can be no taxes if there's no money being generated by an individual. You can't take fruit from a tree that doesn't exist. But once someone else grows it, the government will come and take from it. That's what taxes are.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but let's be realistic about where taxes are coming from. What they're being used for is what we're talking about here. What's being said is basically: money taken from me will partly be used to fund someone else (among all the other things taxes are used for). Yes they're taxes, and it's the government that's spending it, but they got that money from people who are working and generating revenue that can even BE taxed.

Yes, but everyone knows that and (mostly) accepts that. It's the equivalent of "free healthcare isn't free!" Everyone knows it's paid for through taxes; it's free to the end-user.

Fundamentally, taxes are garnered from the citizenry to be used to support the society that citizenry enjoys, providing for necessary services and support. A society where people aren't struggling in poverty is something I'm perfectly willing to contribute taxes towards. I have to question the ethics of those for whom that's a dealbreaker.

I don't think anyone is claiming it is a ton of money, but it's very clearly enough to be comfortable, and puts you in the top 10-15% of earners in the country.

FWIW, 1/3 of all households in the USA made north of $100k in 2020. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top...e-percentiles/

I wasn't trying to argue it was way too little, just that people sometimes act like a six-figure income means you're well-to-do, and that really hasn't been the case since the '80s, if not the '70s. It's a solid middle-class income and can support a family, for sure. I'm by no means an elitist who's trying to crap on trades work, here, I was only trying to speak to the realities of income levels.

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And just to note that being a tradesman doesn't exempt you from a job loss either especially in the last 15 years or so. The 2008 Recession and the 2020 Pandemic have been crippling to the trades. When the new house development dries up and the repair work is all that's left a lot of those guys end up out of work for prolonged periods of time. UBI would be a great help for those folks to be able to get by on top of their unemployment insurance. Unfortunately we've seen it right here on these very forums that folks who get paid more via unemployment should just take a job that pays lower than what they're getting from benefits or they're leeches.

We just did a full basement remodel last year, from an unfinished basement to a half-finished, with unfinished storage behind that. Several rooms and a bathroom. We started the work in January, before COVID was a serious concern and lockdowns were being put into effect, and the work went on into early March, well through the first lockdowns. The crew were happy we chose to keep the job going, because most of their reno work had dried up at that point, and keeping our contract was a big deal. We were super cautious about it, too; we basically quarantined our front entrance with tarps leading to the basement, and didn't use the space for the duration, so there was minimal chance of cross-contamination.

But yeah; I can't imagine how much of a pinch the renovation construction industry's had the last year.

[Katchii]

Yes, but everyone knows that and (mostly) accepts that. It's the equivalent of "free healthcare isn't free!" Everyone knows it's paid for through taxes; it's free to the end-user.

Fundamentally, taxes are garnered from the citizenry to be used to support the society that citizenry enjoys, providing for necessary services and support. A society where people aren't struggling in poverty is something I'm perfectly willing to contribute taxes towards. I have to question the ethics of those for whom that's a dealbreaker.

As I've said before, I'm loathe to see my money being partially used to fund people who have absolute zero interest in ever giving back to society and will only ever be a leech (to be clear I am talking about people willfully choosing to be lazy and unhelpful, not those who can't be helpful). But, trying to weed them out or ensure they don't get it is WAY more trouble than it's worth and just letting them have it so that everyone else who actually needs it would be infinitely more beneficial to society as a whole than not ever putting that system in place.

I don't want people to be struggling in poverty either, let's make sure they have the tools (programs, money, etc...) and the opportunity to get out. But, I honestly have very few issues with indolent people who are struggling as a result of their own actions or lack thereof. Let's ensure they can live and easily survive, not in poverty, but also not "comfortably."

FWIW, 1/3 of all households in the USA made north of $100k in 2020. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top...e-percentiles/

I wasn't trying to argue it was way too little, just that people sometimes act like a six-figure income means you're well-to-do, and that really hasn't been the case since the '80s, if not the '70s. It's a solid middle-class income and can support a family, for sure.

Just to highlight, that's household income, not necessarily individual income. An individual making ~$100k is making twice as much as an individual making ~$50k, but that chart puts a household with 2 people making ~$50k in the exact same position as a single person household making ~$100k. I'm sure we can both agree that those two scenario's are very different.