Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[DechCJC]

The nice thing about WoW is that you can buy all the gear you dream of (BoEs and what not), pay for all the boosts in the world - and the game will verify you very fast anyway. You're not winning anything by parsing grey in a group you paid for a boost, there's no amount of gear to buy that could ever change that. And people will know. That's the reality.
On the other hand, if you know how to play, you don't even need to buy anything (provided you have some patience).

But you can beat a game with 5000 deaths and still call it a victory right? Sure you’re not setting any records, but you still win. If your objective is to speed run the game with the least amount of deaths, then yeah you’d not be winning.

I don’t know why we’re discussing the semantics of winning. We set our own standards for what constitutes a win.

[TheRevenantHero]

WoW is p2W now for one big reason: character boosts in the shop. The fact that a player can skip large swaths of content to dive into more recent content immediately because they shelled out $60 is textbook pay to win.

[Hellobolis]

But if the token is P2W, then the sale of TCG items in-game is P2W too? Both are acquired with real money, and both are sold in-game for gold.

So, this thread's argument is, that WoW turned legally P2W on October 25, 2006, before that, it was illegally P2W only.

there is a difference between "the game has some P2W in it" and "the game is P2W".

back in the day p2w/boosts/etc was something you saw once in a while. now you see it everywhere everyday.

and it wasn't even a slippery slope either, it was from end to the other in a year orso. (well there was some slippery sloping on the cash shop before the token, but its just on a whole different level now)

[Lochton]

there is a difference between "the game has some P2W in it" and "the game is P2W".

back in the day p2w/boosts/etc was something you saw once in a while. now you see it everywhere everyday.

and it wasn't even a slippery slope either, it was from end to the other in a year orso. (well there was some slippery sloping on the cash shop before the token, but its just on a whole different level now)

Well, from my memory back then, I recall a flood of items being sold for an extortionate amount of gold (this was about a month after TCG was released), and the trend continued until TCG stopped being printed, then after that, the price just climbed higher. There was a huge TCG market, now, luckily it is a dying market where the remaining cards are slowly increasing in value but the quantity dwindling.

Before that, it was, if we use people in this thread's arguments, 'illegal P2W' (the sales of game-time for gold, gold for real money, boosts for real money, and loot for real money).

[Hellobolis]

Well, from my memory back then, I recall a flood of items being sold for an extortionate amount of gold (this was about a month after TCG was released), and the trend continued until TCG stopped being printed, then after that, the price just climbed higher. There was a huge TCG market, now, luckily it is a dying market where the remaining cards are slowly increasing in value but the quantity dwindling.

Before that, it was, if we use people in this thread's arguments, 'illegal P2W' (the sales of game-time for gold, gold for real money, boosts for real money, and loot for real money).

if TCG adverts/items were a flood, how would you describe today? a tsunami?

[Nnyco]

You do of course understand how much gold prices have been fucked for the average player by the absurd amounts of gold that have become available to players through the token right?

And what you need all that gold for? Apart from some consumeables and repairs you dont need much, unless of course you want to buy silly boosts and not just play the game the normal way.

[Lochton]

if TCG adverts/items were a flood, how would you describe today? a tsunami?

TCG items are not really a tsunami or even flood today. Unless of course, you go on eBay.

[Doffen]

You are defining "win" exclusively as having no access whatsoever to really powerful stuff which can only be bought with real money. A very convenient definition, and really useless as well, since it covers pretty much no (PC) game at all. By that logic, only crappy gacha mobile games would be P2W rofl

Lollis is describing the correct definition of pay 2 win in video games. You do not. You are going the convenient way of making up another definition of the term pay 2 win.

And the white knight passive aggressive stuff you come with to devalue people is getting old.

It's a narrow definition because it is a straight forward definition that doesn't require expanding on. Literally adding onto it makes it not the definition.

Its literally the "If my Mother had Wheels she'd be a Bicycle" argument.

Spot on.

[Hellobolis]

TCG items are not really a tsunami or even flood today. Unless of course, you go on eBay.

i meant the boost adverts/sales.

[Hellobolis]

Anyone saying "yes" is functionally retarded. Or just doesn't understand basic words.

WoW is categorically not P2W.

i can pay $20 today and have a 226 item i my vault on a character nobody would ever invite normally. i don't even have to be there for the boost i can hearthstone out once it's started.

maybe doesn't meet some strict p2w definitions, but certainly goes beyond pay for convenience or pay to skip the line.

[Lochton]

i meant the boost adverts/sales.

Well, unsure about real-money sales, as I am not part of such communities but we know they exist still, though boost sales spam has actually become less than it was three-four months ago, but would call it a tsunami back then, yes. For the level of the game as it is now. Then again, the market for boosting has been growing by the existence of players gaining more and more through the game, and the token offered players to legally trade game-time for gold, and the numbers went up faster.

But there has always been a boosting market, and players feed the market, so it keeps growing.

[Mardux]

WoW is p2W now for one big reason: character boosts in the shop. The fact that a player can skip large swaths of content to dive into more recent content immediately because they shelled out $60 is textbook pay to win.

Getting to level 50 a couple of days before someone else doesn't give you some unattainable advantage any more than having a guildmate carry you through freehold for a couple of hours. In fact, given time vs money, most people would likely think (assuming they think logically) the freehold leveler had the more "advantageous" deal seeing as getting power leveled takes little more time than buying a boost but getting power leveled saves you 50-60 bucks.

Not to mention buying a boost doesn't make you win at anything unless you actually think you win WoW once you hit level 50. Buying a boost doesn't kill raid bosses for you, it doesn't time keystones for you, it doesn't give you BiS gear. All it does is save a minute amount of time at the expense of RWC without making you any better at the game.

And no. You making up definitions for things doesn't magically put those definitions into any "textbooks". But in case you were wondering, WoW is the actual textbook definition of pay-to-play.

[Kokolums]

You either no life the game, buy tokens to win, or sit as a casual heroic raider.

[Dimad]

i can pay $20 today and have a 226 item i my vault on a character nobody would ever invite normally. i don't even have to be there for the boost i can hearthstone out once it's started.

maybe doesn't meet some strict p2w definitions, but certainly goes beyond pay for convenience or pay to skip the line.

A lot of people will point to that and say its pay 2 win. Ut actually is not. Pay 2 win means that blizzard themselves are selling powerful gear in the blizzard shop. Offically sanctioned selling of gear and items from the developer themselves. It dosent include buying boosts from parties not affiliated with blizzard.

So no, wow is not pay 2 win. Other groups not affiliated with or sanctioned by blizzard that sell runs do not constitue as the game being p2w.

[Lochton]

And no. You making up definitions for things doesn't magically put those definitions into any "textbooks". But in case you were wondering, WoW is the actual textbook definition of pay-to-play.

Well, I certainly hope people know that it is Pay-2-Play, but some arguments flag it as P2P/P2W

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of people will point to that and say its pay 2 win. Ut actually is not. Pay 2 win means that blizzard themselves are selling powerful gear in the blizzard shop. Offically sanctioned selling of gear and items from the developer themselves. It dosent include buying boosts from parties not affiliated with blizzard.

So no, wow is not pay 2 win. Other groups not affiliated with or sanctioned by blizzard that sell runs do not constitue as the game being p2w.

Well, currently, the arguments mainly running is

Boosting is P2W because... you don't have to do everything(?) (aka. catch-up)
Token is P2W because... you get gold from other players to maybe purchase services from other players.

Meanwhile, my main belief of P2W is 'endgame' power gain directly from the developer (armor sets/boost of stats/boost of power/weapons/instant purchase (from Blizzard) completion of current content ranked PvP or Raiding)

[Doffen]

Anyone saying "yes" is functionally retarded. Or just doesn't understand basic words.

WoW is categorically not P2W.

WoW is Pay 2 Grow Epeen

[Rageonit]

i can pay $20 today and have a 226 item i my vault on a character nobody would ever invite normally. i don't even have to be there for the boost i can hearthstone out once it's started.

maybe doesn't meet some strict p2w definitions, but certainly goes beyond pay for convenience or pay to skip the line.

Name one MMO-like game where a group of players wouldn't take my 20 bucks to help me finish content they can easily farm.
And do you think it would require any kind of token? If anything, WoW token makes legal something that players would do anyway, illegally if they had no other choice (as history of WoW clearly shows).

[Hellobolis]

A lot of people will point to that and say its pay 2 win. Ut actually is not. Pay 2 win means that blizzard themselves are selling powerful gear in the blizzard shop. Offically sanctioned selling of gear and items from the developer themselves. It dosent include buying boosts from parties not affiliated with blizzard.

So no, wow is not pay 2 win. Other groups not affiliated with or sanctioned by blizzard that sell runs do not constitue as the game being p2w.

yeah and pachinko technically isn't gambling either. sure.

pay2loophole then?

[Lochton]

WoW is Pay 2 Grow Epeen

Gah, now we are going down the rabbit hole, though!

Which ePeen?

Achievement points?
PvP ranking?
Raiding?
Pet collection?
Mount collection?
Transmog collection?
Toy collection?

[Loveliest]

Well, yes. Doesn't matter how ppl paint it, but if you can use real money to buy anything and everything that You are supposed to get for playing, it is pay to win.

If you can get end boss Mythic kill and gladiator rank while you yourself cannot play for shit, you are paying to win. The unfair advantage here is that you don't invest anything other than money and you get almost instant results. Basically, you're not required to PLAY the game to get rewards. Anything else is pure semantics and there is no true way to argument against it.
If i played basketball and bought my team for me and i did nothing, everyone would point their finger at me at how useless I am and how i bought my win. Doesn't matter if other teams play fairly. Doesn't matter if through time investment i could win. Only matters that i was useless and got a win using money. That's what pay to win means at its purest for: pay for a win.