Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[Wangming]

I don't think killing them is neccessary, but I'm still infinitely more interested in the fate of the twins (despite disliking them) than anyone in the main cast of WoW.

Oh yes for the twins. And daddy Thancred. But I think we've exhausted all potential Urianger has. Ever since ARR his role was being criptic and hiding stuff. Also as much as I like our hot catgirl, Y'shtola coming back from death/near death got old in Stormblood. And Lyse got to go. The've pulled the "I'm not really Yda" trick, but her character stayed being the dumb blonde who punches things. She got a promotion she didn't earn but that's it. If they aren't doing anything of worth with her character it would be better to euthanize her.

Hell I think I will make a list on my blog for the main characters and how likely/useful their deaths would be to the story.

On the WoW side though you just now that you need to kill them or they will shove them into every story even if you are tired of them.
I think that is why Legion worked so well. Bane was not present at all, Jaine threw a tantrum and went offscreen, Sylvanas was busy hunting Genn, Thrall was moping in the corner due to loosing the Doomhammer and Anduin was mourning his faither.
So you where doing the war campaign with everyone else.

[apelsinjuice]

warfronts : useless garbage completely boring wasted potential
islands : useless garbage completely boring wasted potential
torghast : useless garbage completely boring wasted potential
maw: useless garbage completely boring wasted potential

can blizzard actually do any good new content

[Soon-TM]

I wish they would ignore the stupid "mandatory" mentality and just make a wide range of viable progression options people can do that they enjoy. Do you want to get your gear via professions? Sure! World quests? M+? Raids? PvP? Torghast? Go for it! You don't want to do the other content to get better gear? Then fucking don't.

You can't have that, otherwise the tiny, tiny minority without an ounce of self-control (you know, those folks who ran MoS in Legion or islands in BfA until their eyes were bleeding) will be QQ'ing loud and clear about Mandatory Grinds™. And Ion has proven to be VERY sensitive to the complaints coming from said tiny group.

[huth]

So please explain why it happened specifically during SL? You make some very incorrect assumptions here, most notably that "everyone" has played since launch - this is obviously not true. Why is it that people who started in vanilla, tbc, wrath, cata, or any other expansion, playing the game fro 15 years, 5 years, 8 years, 12 years.....all suddenly realized they had played for too long during the same expansion, within a few weeks/months of each other?

I'd say your premise that it is specific to SL is what's wrong here. People have been doing this since WotLK at least, probably quite a bit longer.

[Relapses]

I'd say your premise that it is specific to SL is what's wrong here. People have been doing this since WotLK at least, probably quite a bit longer.

Nobody on this forum knows any of Blizzard's retention data so I always find it funny when I see arguments that use the subscription levels as some kind of linear, set-in-stone infallible justification for any argument either for or against the design of the game. The fact is, however, that earlier expansions could have had much, much worse retention levels than the recent expansions (ie, more people quit) but there was such a steady influx of new/returning players that growth still occurred. Conversely, players could be quitting at much lower rates in recent expansions but because of the lack of new/returning players, subscriber levels are trending downwards. The truly ironic thing is that the former scenario is an unsustainable business model and the latter is the much preferred scenario despite players making countless arguments which directly contradict this.

[starstationprofm]

Because unlike the title of the very thread you're in, Shadowlands is not climbing the ladder in popularity.

And that is party why.

Nor will it. WoW's a 16 year old game, it's glory days are done. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

I don't think you realise just how ridiculous it is that a game which started development in the last millennium still has 10 million people willing to pay a sub and buy a new expansion.

If they wanted player numbers so much they'd just go free to play with a cash shop and they'd probably have dozens of millions of players. But they're a company, they want money. And they're doing quite fine in that aspect.

- - - Updated - - -

The "mandatory grind" was basically casual content.

Wait are you saying Casuals want Artifact Power back? Cause I was a CE Mythic raider and even I hated it.

- - - Updated - - -

Now you know why people left. Day 9 without logging in. Sub cancelled.

Good for you. The amount of people who aren't satisfied with one of PVP/Dungeons/Raids is too small for them to invest in making something they'll like. Chances are if you don't like either of those 3, WoW was never for you and you wouldn't be happy with anything they make.

[arkanon]

Nobody on this forum knows any of Blizzard's retention data so I always find it funny when I see arguments that use the subscription levels as some kind of linear, set-in-stone infallible justification for any argument either for or against the design of the game. The fact is, however, that earlier expansions could have had much, much worse retention levels than the recent expansions (ie, more people quit) but there was such a steady influx of new/returning players that growth still occurred. Conversely, players could be quitting at much lower rates in recent expansions but because of the lack of new/returning players, subscriber levels are trending downwards. The truly ironic thing is that the former scenario is an unsustainable business model and the latter is the much preferred scenario despite players making countless arguments which directly contradict this.

I guess that's part of what im trying to explain - we have such a tiny slice of information, and people try to extrapolate out scenarios that coincidentally match up perfectly with their opinion of the game, their narrative. Some examples:

When they introduced LFR people started quitting, so LFR is bad.
When they "pruned" the classes, people started quitting, so pruning is bad
When they changed the difficulty settings, people starting quitting - inclusion is bad
When they added arena, the classes got worse, so arena is bad

I could go on and on, and im sure you have a dozen examples yourself. Truth is, we dont have anywhere near the data needed to make these assumptions anything more than that.

- - - Updated - - -

Now you know why people left. Day 9 without logging in. Sub cancelled.

No, we dont, and neither do you.

[Goldielocks]

I mean, congrats on having fun in Fanfictionlands? lmao

[Feanoro]

Nobody on this forum knows any of Blizzard's retention data so I always find it funny when I see arguments that use the subscription levels as some kind of linear, set-in-stone infallible justification for any argument either for or against the design of the game.

And I find it funny that white knights insist that declining subs (at least until they stopped publishing them, lol) are perfectly fine. If you honestly think a business is just dandy with losing customers, I don't know what to tell you.

The fact is, however, that earlier expansions could have had much, much worse retention levels than the recent expansions (ie, more people quit) but there was such a steady influx of new/returning players that growth still occurred. Conversely, players could be quitting at much lower rates in recent expansions but because of the lack of new/returning players, subscriber levels are trending downwards.

"The fact is..." followed by speculation which flies in the face of "Nobody on this forum knows any of Blizzard's retention data". Truly impressive mental gymnastics!

[Glorious Leader]

I wish they would ignore the stupid "mandatory" mentality and just make a wide range of viable progression options people can do that they enjoy. Do you want to get your gear via professions? Sure! World quests? M+? Raids? PvP? Torghast? Go for it! You don't want to do the other content to get better gear? Then fucking don't.

For some insane asanine reason the developers are incredible sensitive to that complaint. It's the dumbest mistep they could make because even those people complaining about forced grinds.... did the forced fucking grinds anyway that's why they were complaining. They were still consuming the content. Why would you fuck with that and risk alienating everyone else?

- - - Updated - - -

You can't have that, otherwise the tiny, tiny minority without an ounce of self-control (you know, those folks who ran MoS in Legion or islands in BfA until their eyes were bleeding) will be QQ'ing loud and clear about Mandatory Grinds™. And Ion has proven to be VERY sensitive to the complaints coming from said tiny group.

Its really dumb and reflects an UTTER failure on the part of management to call it what it is and actually manage. Ion should be told his priorities are wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait are you saying Casuals want Artifact Power back? Cause I was a CE Mythic raider and even I hated it.

- - - Updated - - -

Absolutely. It was progression that they could attack at your own pace that was awarded from almost all content and was equivalent from johnny hardcore to Timmy casual. Everybody wanted artifact power and it wasnt denied behind raid wall or m+ wall or pvp wall.

Basically if you felt forced to grind world content because the reward was good then that was casual friendly. Because the reward was good and recognized as such.

[shimerra]

I agree with this. I miss patch/expansion checklists like before Legion. Now, it’s constant weekly, and if I miss a week or two I am now behind while previously if I finished gearing I could take a break for a week or two and not be behind. I am more burnt out since Legion than I have been for every expansion before hand.

I skip stuff all the time and have a comfortable 200+ ilvl on two chars and working on a 3rd in the span of a couple months and most of my buddies have at least a few alts from 200-210+. Christ even paying for most raid mats is so much easier with the calling quests even my friends who relied on me to fund them because they were trash at money making haven't had to beg for a dime this expansion.

I regularly skip torghast if I don't feel like doing it, I pretty much only do the epic calling quests, and I can't remember the last time I did a WQ other than to complete the previously mentioned calling quest. Most weeks I completely ignore the maw and I can't say I've suffered from having my sanctum haphazardly upgraded. Anima seems to be fairly well ignored except maybe to lvl up your covenant set to help with early gearing unless you want a mildly easier time navigating a single zone out of the 5 or the cosmetic stuff.

What exactly could you get behind in this expansion other than in soul ash that really matters? I was months behind not starting until like late March or early April and I feel perfectly caught up now. About the only thing I'm missing is a dps legendary on my main, but I don't dps on him so not really bothered. Hell last week I basically did a single Keystone for my vault, because I preferred leveling the above alt over pumping my vault. Can't say my uber casual butt feels at all left behind.

I've done the hardcore before. It's 99% inflicted on yourself for tiny/barely noticeable gains more often than being important to actually do. And most of the people who feel forced to do it aren't anywhere near a level where it's actually worth playing that hard. And even if it was if you hate it: don't do it.

[Relapses]

And I find it funny that white knights insist that declining subs (at least until they stopped publishing them, lol) are perfectly fine. If you honestly think a business is just dandy with losing customers, I don't know what to tell you.

Since you started this post with an ad hominem, I doubt you care but I must ask... do you actually think that the insane growth periods of early WoW were sustainable?

"The fact is..." followed by speculation which flies in the face of "Nobody on this forum knows any of Blizzard's retention data". Truly impressive mental gymnastics!

The ideas I described aren't new. They're not even my own. It's quite literally how the subscription business model works. Understanding subscriber churn is one of the most important factors in having a successful subscription business model. The success of that model is intrinsic towards two factors for which Blizzard has literally never released any figures publicly to support: New subscription generation and attrition. And considering Blizzard's been doing this shit for 17 fucking years (longer than any other paid subscription MMO service out there), I'd say they're doing pretty well. You drawing conclusions by looking at incomplete information (subscriber level go down = GAME BAD; subscriber level go up = GAME GOOD) is no different than me simply speculating that maybe... just maybe... the reality isn't nearly as cynical as you'd love to convince yourself it is.

[Selah]

Have to disagree with OP, Shadowlands is the first expansion that has made me genuinely worried about the future of the game. Granted it's not nearly as bad as WoD, but it's the first expansion I've seen big name content creators (Bellular, Preach, Asmon) diverting their focus away from WoW on their channels and are starting to openly praise another MMO en mass on their channels. That's genuinely concerning, I've never seen it happen like this before, even in the days of TB.

[huth]

"The fact is..." followed by speculation which flies in the face of "Nobody on this forum knows any of Blizzard's retention data". Truly impressive mental gymnastics!

But that's literally the fact being stated there, just more elaborately.

[starstationprofm]

Absolutely. It was progression that they could attack at your own pace that was awarded from almost all content and was equivalent from johnny hardcore to Timmy casual. Everybody wanted artifact power and it wasnt denied behind raid wall or m+ wall or pvp wall.

Basically if you felt forced to grind world content because the reward was good then that was casual friendly. Because the reward was good and recognized as such.

When BFA was current everyone whined about the endless grind.

[Echo of Soul]

Have to disagree with OP, Shadowlands is the first expansion that has made me genuinely worried about the future of the game. Granted it's not nearly as bad as WoD, but it's the first expansion I've seen big name content creators (Bellular, Preach, Asmon) diverting their focus away from WoW on their channels and are starting to openly praise another MMO en mass on their channels. That's genuinely concerning, I've never seen it happen like this before, even in the days of TB.

Yeah this has been a thing since cataclysm really but there comes a point when the grass actually IS greener on the other side. I don't think we're far from where WoW isn't the number one MMORPG anymore.
At this point we're just waiting for a huge chunk of the playerbase to kick the habit and realize that they deserve better. When that happens Blizzard could be in serious trouble, they can't survive on the hardcore community alone.

[froschhure]

And then this gating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Soon-TM]

they can't survive on the hardcore community alone.

Well, everything from Ion & co. seems to indicate that they think differently. Also, some hardcore folks, for what I see in these very boards, seem to truly believe that the game could do just fine even if its population was reduced to a tiny number of high end raiders.

- - - Updated - - -

When BFA was current everyone whined about the endless grind.

Idk what forums you were reading, but people complained much more often about the massive pruning inflicted to most classes/specs after losing all the Legion perks. Another major reason for complaints was early BfA Azerite armour, which was honestly dumb and it was only fixed by 8.1.5... The "endless grind" was far below on the QQ list - except if you were in a top 100 guild or so, in which case, yes, you had to farm Azerite until you were blue in the face.

[Th3Scourge]

This aged well.....

[Glorious Leader]

When BFA was current everyone whined about the endless grind.

And then went ahead and did it anyway. Why would you change this design at the risk of alienating everybody else ?