Page 29 of 39 FirstFirst ...
19
27
28
29
30
31
... LastLast
  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    As I've said before, I'm loathe to see my money being partially used to fund people who have absolute zero interest in ever giving back to society and will only ever be a leech (to be clear I am talking about people willfully choosing to be lazy and unhelpful, not those who can't be helpful).
    Your taxes are spent for a whole lot of shit you don't use and need already. Childless people still pay for schools, carless people still pay for roads, healthy people still pay for healthcare (more so in EU). You may never go to a museum or a library and still your taxes are spent for them. I see no problem with my taxes making sure every single citizen has enough food and a roof over their head. In fact I voted for a UBI party in last elections and shall do so this year again (just to be clear, I earn more than German median and would not simply stay home if UBI would be introduced tomorrow).

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Your taxes are spent for a whole lot of shit you don't use and need already. Childless people still pay for schools, carless people still pay for roads, healthy people still pay for healthcare (more so in EU). You may never go to a museum or a library and still your taxes are spent for them. I see no problem with my taxes making sure every single citizen has enough food and a roof over their head. In fact I voted for a UBI party in last elections and shall do so this year again (just to be clear, I earn more than German median and would not simply stay home if UBI would be introduced tomorrow).
    Ok...Did you read the rest of the post? I never argued against UBI.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by ghotihook View Post
    I wouldn't say there is an abundance of construction workers. Almost every construction field is struggling to fill their spots. Plumbing, framing, electricians, hell even tilers are impossible to find. People just don't want to do manual labor. My brother made over $100K last year as a journeyman plumber and they have had to hold jobs because they don't have enough people.
    the shortage of skilled labor has a lot to do with companies all fighting over the experienced employee and refusing to want to train new ones and pay for it.
    They are waiting for the govt to do it or pay for it...or some other company.

    After a slow progression we now have full generations that have no training in these type of jobs because a particular party did not want to fund national job training programs
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  4. #564
    Seems relevant; 1 in 4 workers is considering quitting their job after the pandemic

    Of the 26% of workers planning to leave their employers after the pandemic, 80% are doing so because they're concerned about their career advancement; meanwhile, 72% say the pandemic caused them to rethink their skill sets. More than half of potential job-hoppers have sought out new trainings and skills during the pandemic, possibly to prepare to change jobs in the next few months.

    Workers who want to quit overwhelmingly say they're looking for a new job with more flexibility. Indeed, even among those who aren't considering changing jobs, half of people currently working remotely say if their current company doesn't continue to offer remote-work options long-term, they'll look for a job at a company that does.

  5. #565
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Why? Why should those people enjoy the fruits of other's labor if they put nothing in and have no intent to ever do so?

    .
    Congratulations you just defined capital income.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #566
    IMO, the problem with UBI is not having to work and just getting a check for doing nothing, is too big of an incentive. Especially when the job one already has was low paying and generally terrible anyway. Once one decides to remove themselves from the workforce, that is a relatively big setback if they ever want to rejoin the workforce. Decisions we could make right out of college, such as deciding to delay the starting of work and live off UBI for a few years, could hurt many in the long term without realizing this unintended consequence.

    Why does missing work set one back? Well, besides the obvious hit to a resume that being out of work 6 months would(probably unfairly) cause, I think the answer to that is actually opportunity. You miss out on a lot of opportunities setting at home playing videos games and sleeping all day. Just saying. I know that sounds boomer, but actually I think it is true.

    Don't get me wrong, I've love UBI, I just can't see how it works out in the America I live in today.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2021-06-02 at 09:37 PM.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Congratulations you just defined capital income.
    And red states.

  8. #568
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    IMO, the problem with UBI is not having to work and just getting a check for doing it.
    According to Piketty close to 30% of all income in the country is paid in the form of capital gains. That is income which is either partially or entirely divorced from labor. Nobody ever applies this same bullshit argument about UBI to capital.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #569
    The biggest argument against UBI is basically "I'm selfish and lazy...therefore everyone else is too"

  10. #570
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    The biggest argument against UBI is basically "I'm selfish and lazy...therefore everyone else is too"
    Universal welfare costs more than conditional welfare because you can't just target the poorest people with a universal program. Yang's proposal would cost trillions per year and you can't reasonably grab all of that from other welfare programs to fund UBI. The main problem is that we need more wealth and a bigger economy to create the program. Since most taxes are paid by the top 10% and you can't just keep increasing taxes on the top 10% forever without a justified pushback.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-06-02 at 10:22 PM.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    IMO, the problem with UBI is not having to work and just getting a check for doing nothing, is too big of an incentive. Especially when the job one already has was low paying and generally terrible anyway. Once one decides to remove themselves from the workforce, that is a relatively big setback if they ever want to rejoin the workforce. Decisions we could make right out of college, such as deciding to delay the starting of work and live off UBI for a few years, could hurt many in the long term without realizing this unintended consequence.

    Why does missing work set one back? Well, besides the obvious hit to a resume that being out of work 6 months would(probably unfairly) cause, I think the answer to that is actually opportunity. You miss out on a lot of opportunities setting at home playing videos games and sleeping all day. Just saying. I know that sounds boomer, but actually I think it is true.

    Don't get me wrong, I've love UBI, I just can't see how it works out in the America I live in today.
    UBI, as how the entire economy runs(from manufacturing to retail), couldn't work as too many gears would come to a grinding halt as we are a consumer economy and still need lots of people to make things. Robotics would have to advance a LOT more for that to be the case.

    The biggest problem with UBI, and I've stated this in previous threads, is that there is no way to afford it from a cost standpoint. Even if you remove Social Security(UBI would remove it outright along with the overhead of it), unemployment and the like, the taxes taken in wouldn't be ANYWHERE near what is needed for a UBI, even a basic one. Lets do some math shall we.

    Lets say you have an average UBI of $40,000/year(this will depend on area of the country), and only apply it to anyone that is an adult, there are around 281.5 million adults in the country. That is around $11.24 trillion/year. Right now the US government brings in $3.9 trillion. You would have to increase taxes by nearly 3X to even afford that.

    Lets make that $30k/year. That would still come out to around $8.43 trillion/year. or around 2.5X amount in taxes needed to bring in.

    These numbers for taxes are if nothing changes due to a UBI which it most definitely would. While I like the idea of a UBI, it just is not feasible from a taxation standpoint. You would literally have to raise taxes to nearly 25% and to nearly 96% at the upper end for the $30k/year. $40k/year would make it to where the lower end would be over 30% and the highest would be nearly 120%. Mind you, you would have to remove ALL deductions to even get the $30k/year number.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    IMO, the problem with UBI is not having to work and just getting a check for doing nothing, is too big of an incentive. Especially when the job one already has was low paying and generally terrible anyway. Once one decides to remove themselves from the workforce, that is a relatively big setback if they ever want to rejoin the workforce.
    The solution to that is obviously to pay more. You'll find a dude for every job on earth if the compensation is right. That will make "unskilled" work more expensive and quite possibly "skilled" work cheaper for companies. Decreasing income inequality. And there's nothing wrong with that. The person cleaning an office is working just as hard as the person behind the desk, but simply in another way.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Plumbers aren't construction laborers, they're specialists who require pretty significant training and such. You can't just up and decide to be a plumber tomorrow; you could with construction laborer. You're not making six figures as a laborer. For the specialists, there's gonna be up-front costs for training and licensing and tools that act as pretty significant barriers to entry for many; the process takes about 5 years here in Ontario, and the costs can be into low five figures over that time. So there's your problem; if you've got the time and funds to invest in developing a career, do you pick plumbing? Or something else?

    Also, "over $100k" is just "comfortably middle class". We need to stop pretending it's a ton of money.
    Not sure where you’re getting your figures, but $100k salary is literally in the top 20 percent of income earners in the US last I checked.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Not sure where you’re getting your figures, but $100k salary is literally in the top 20 percent of income earners in the US last I checked.
    You are so close to figuring this out.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Not sure where you’re getting your figures, but $100k salary is literally in the top 20 percent of income earners in the US last I checked.
    That so few people make enough money to qualify as "comfortably middle class" is a very bad sign for people living in the US. There are reasons why so many people in the US are so angry. High prices and low salaries make people cross.

  16. #576
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    That so few people make enough money to qualify as "comfortably middle class" is a very bad sign for people living in the US. There are reasons why so many people in the US are so angry. High prices and low salaries make people cross.
    Seriously, it's like people don't realize that doctors and lawyers are the archetype for "upper middle class", and lawyers tend to make north of $150k on average in many states, and family doctors average comfortably north of $200k (and specialists much more than that).

    Six-figure incomes aren't that big a deal any more.


  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The solution to that is obviously to pay more. You'll find a dude for every job on earth if the compensation is right. That will make "unskilled" work more expensive and quite possibly "skilled" work cheaper for companies. Decreasing income inequality. And there's nothing wrong with that. The person cleaning an office is working just as hard as the person behind the desk, but simply in another way.
    I'm not at all on board with someone who has certifications, degrees, training, and experience getting similar pay to someone doing a job literally anyone can do with none of those things.

    Working hard is not what qualifies the amount of pay you get, it's where and how you're applying that hard work. And there are MANY jobs people with none of those things can even dream of doing, and the people that CAN should get compensated accordingly.

    The floor on pay should be much higher, so everyone can earn a livable wage regardless of what they're doing because I agree that working hard deserves enough compensation to live.

    But, there should be income inequality, that's not a bad thing. The levels we see now are what the problem is, not that there is income inequality at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, it's like people don't realize that doctors and lawyers are the archetype for "upper middle class", and lawyers tend to make north of $150k on average in many states, and family doctors average comfortably north of $200k (and specialists much more than that).

    Six-figure incomes aren't that big a deal any more.
    Whether it's middle class is not the issue.

    Single wage earners earning over $100k are in the top 20% of all earners in the country. Getting to that point is still a pretty big deal. It just doesn't make you as wealthy as it used to.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm not at all on board with someone who has certifications, degrees, training, and experience getting similar pay to someone doing a job literally anyone can do with none of those things.
    Decreasing inequality. Not actually similar pay for everyone.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Decreasing inequality. Not actually similar pay for everyone.
    I apparently misinterpreted what you wrote. My bad.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm not at all on board with someone who has certifications, degrees, training, and experience getting similar pay to someone doing a job literally anyone can do with none of those things.

    Working hard is not what qualifies the amount of pay you get, it's where and how you're applying that hard work. And there are MANY jobs people with none of those things can even dream of doing, and the people that CAN should get compensated accordingly.

    The floor on pay should be much higher, so everyone can earn a livable wage regardless of what they're doing because I agree that working hard deserves enough compensation to live.

    But, there should be income inequality, that's not a bad thing. The levels we see now are what the problem is, not that there is income inequality at all.

    .
    So wait if you do equal amount of work and where production/revenue generation is on the same level....that hard working unskilled laborer deserves to be paid way less then the so called "skilled" laborer just because more people can do it?
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •