Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Cuppy]

It depends how you define your "win criteria". For a lot of people getting CE and KSM is equal to winning WoW. So in that regards WoW is pay to win.

No.
This is not a question of opinion. It's simply pay to win, or not pay and win. There is absolutely no inbetween.
Nothing, and I mean nothing stops you from getting CE and KSM by paying your sub, and simply just doing stuff.

Yes it's gone full p2w, as an option now. But in pve I don't care that much, cause it doesn't really ruin it for me. Sure you could get a booster in your group, but I go by number of 15's runs, and if its only 10, I'm not inviting. They can't do anything with their gear anyway.

PvP is absolute dogshit now with boosters. Only a true shill or seller could defend blizzard for that crap

How do you pay to win exactly? If a player offers you boosts, it's not pay to win. It's pay to get boosted, and last time I checked, there is no service on blizzard's store where you can select your glad gear, mounts and titles and cash out, log into game and find these things in your mailbox.
Pay to win, means you have to pay money in order to succeed. You think the real gladiators, who now boost people, bought their gladiators? No, they played and they won.
Sure the game now revolves around boosting, but that's the playerbase. And still, you can do all the stuff the boosters sell, without buying the boost by just doing these things yourself.
Sure, you can buy gold with money now, which you could do always. Why would you think blizzard wants to watch goldsellers to flourish when they can do it themselves?

[rhorle]

But I will point out you mistook me for someone else, and instead of even trying to apologize for that you just proceeded to basically dismiss it as "You're just as bad of a person as them anyway!".

I've pointed out far more then Nyalotha as an insult. Also did you need read the part where I said my bad? What more do you want in an apology? Flowers? Candy? A Billboard? Seriously. You act so high and might. Sling insults like crazy. Accuse me of mocking, insulting everyone else when the only person I've took that tone with is you after you insulted my earlier several times. Including gate keeping who can respond to your posts. While even jumping in later with out follow your own rules. Seriously dud what is your problem?

You don't have to if you're not WF, no.

See. That is all you had to say from the start. You literally spend hours raging about me with every clever insult you could think of. Every little tangent about corrupt, experience, stats and what not. All for you to agree with the very thing I said. Thanks for the laugh in the morning.

[Velerios]

If you define P2W as 'spending RL money on WoW can give you an advantage over some people who don't spend RL money on WoW' then yes, WoW is P2W.
If you define P2W as 'all people who spend RL money on WoW have an advantage over all people who don't' then no, WoW is not P2W.

This is the most accurate answer to this question: You CAN get ahead of little Timmy who plays without money by buying gold and buy items with the gold, but you can't get in the Leaderboards like Sven who plays hardcore this game and is in one of the top Progress Guilds.

Except you buy a professional WoW Progress Guild and pay them to play for and with you. But this could probably be done on every game, so every game is P2W.

[rhorle]

The smarter games would shift to making it a time sink, but that doesn't mean all of them are like that. But at the end of the day, P2W has always been about "The best". You're paying to win, it's the phrase itself. It's harder to translate that to something like WoW though.

No. Pay to Win has never been about the best things. It has been about things better then others. It isn't harder to translate that to WoW because buying gear would be paying to win. Buying levels is pay to win even if the levels you can buy is irrelevant. Because you are buying power.

[Jester Joe]

I've pointed out far more then Nyalotha as an insult. Also did you need read the part where I said my bad? What more do you want in an apology? Flowers? Candy? A Billboard? Seriously. You act so high and might. Sling insults like crazy. Accuse me of mocking, insulting everyone else when the only person I've took that tone with is you after you insulted my earlier several times. Including gate keeping who can respond to your posts. While even jumping in later with out follow your own rules. Seriously dud what is your problem?




See. That is all you had to say from the start. You literally spend hours raging about me with every clever insult you could think of. Every little tangent about corrupt, experience, stats and what not. All for you to agree with the very thing I said. Thanks for the laugh in the morning.

Yeah I'm not bothering with your constant projection anymore, man.

Like I said a long time ago, gaslighting isn't an argument, I was far more polite to you than needed. Look at your way of responding to an apology, and look at the way you're snipping most of my post out to mock me for agreeing on one thing, while ignoring that I still disagreed.

Have a good one.

[rhorle]

Yeah I'm not bothering with your constant projection anymore, man. Like I said a long time ago, gaslighting isn't an argument, I was far more polite to you than needed. Look at your way of responding to an apology, and look at the way you're snipping most of my post out to mock me for agreeing on one thing, while ignoring that I still disagreed. Have a good one.

I just respond how you respond. If you don't want project then don't do it yourself. If you don't want gaslighting then don't do it yourself. You are the one that kept calling people dishonest, kept dismissing, kept label things as poor arguments, kept gate keeping who could respond, and every other thing you can think of. Then you deny. Then you demand an apology after one was given yet have never once apologized yourself.

You are just as much of the problem. And holy shit dude. You agree with what I originally stated and still can't accept you were wrong and have to point out how you actually disagree even though you stated you agree. Lol. LoL How can I react poorly to an apology when you never gave one? Like Dude stop being so arrogant.

[Jester Joe]

Then you demand an apology after one was given yet have never once apologized yourself..

If you still feel insulted, well, I apologize. Again it wasn't intended to be one.

Sure. Sure I didn't.

[Crimson Spears]

This is the most accurate answer to this question: You CAN get ahead of little Timmy who plays without money by buying gold and buy items with the gold, but you can't get in the Leaderboards like Sven who plays hardcore this game and is in one of the top Progress Guilds.

Except you buy a professional WoW Progress Guild and pay them to play for and with you. But this could probably be done on every game, so every game is P2W.

To an extent yes... though I think people really underplay the effects of the wow token and current boost culture. The genie is out of the bottle now but before the token boosting was fairly rare.

Outside of CM and mythic (and back then heroic raiding) you didn't really ever see it. Now its become popularized to the extent its hard to find actual groups in the group finder. I wish blizzard didn't take such a hands off approach to combating it. One GM who is paid to monitor LFG could remove all of the ads in real time.

[rhorle]

Sure. Sure I didn't.

As you keep insulting with the next post. That isn't an appology if you carry on doing the same thing. You also didn't apologize for your actions but for my feelings. You know just like you said you agree but actually disagree with what I said. You can't have things both ways. Pick one.

Not to mention I couldn't react poorly to that if I never reacted at all. You projected and gas lighted but felt the need to assign that reaction to me simply because you reacted poorly to me not groveling at your fight because you apologized. Weird right?

[Jester Joe]

To an extent yes... though I think people really underplay the effects of the wow token and current boost culture. The genie is out of the bottle now but before the token boosting was fairly rare.

Outside of CM and mythic (and back then heroic raiding) you didn't really ever see it. Now its become popularized to the extent its hard to find actual groups in the group finder. I wish blizzard didn't take such a hands off approach to combating it. One GM who is paid to monitor LFG could remove all of the ads in real time.

To be fair, I'm not quite sure I'd pin that on the token alone. Before as you've said, there was CM and Mythic to be boosted through. Both are really one time events if you're paying for the mount from Mythic especially. I would venture as far to say the people buying the boosts for this weren't interested in gear really, but the cosmetic rewards.

Now we have M+, which not only attracts the people who were buying CM boosts so they can get their KSM, but also people who are looking to gear up alts quickly since generally speaking buying a single +15 run isn't too out of the realm of possibilities, unlike Mythic raid boosts which are a hell of a lot more expensive.

To top it off, SL has the unique issue of PvP being the most reliable way to gear up, encouraging people to also look for PvP boosts rather than spending the time invested in it.

The token does end up drawing quite a bit of attention in that case for people looking for that quick gold though.

[Davaca]

I've seen a lot of people in this thread discussing the WoW Token. The token is the way Blizzard is trying to regulate and disincentivize people using external sites to exchange real life money for in game items or services. Even if you end the Token, people will sell thing for real money. And the token is actually pretty smart and non intrusive way to mitigate scams and shady sites. So, the game is not made more or less p2w because of the WoW token.

You could argue in favor of limiting player's interactions and ways to get loot, like eliminating BoEs or banning players from selling services. But, in a way, it would detract from the experience of WoW being an mmo where people can feel like they have different ways to play. The token itself is just a method to make it safer to exchange money for gold, it is not the cause of people trading money for gear, simply because it has existed from long ago and it will exist even if we don't have a token.

[Semihagez]

They could have just locked out mythic/heroic raid BOE until world first have been obtained. That would at least make it more interesting and make it feel like you can have a chance in getting world first just as much as the top guilds without having to drop shit tons of gold.

[Crimson Spears]

To be fair, I'm not quite sure I'd pin that on the token alone. Before as you've said, there was CM and Mythic to be boosted through. Both are really one time events if you're paying for the mount from Mythic especially. I would venture as far to say the people buying the boosts for this weren't interested in gear really, but the cosmetic rewards.

Now we have M+, which not only attracts the people who were buying CM boosts so they can get their KSM, but also people who are looking to gear up alts quickly since generally speaking buying a single +15 run isn't too out of the realm of possibilities, unlike Mythic raid boosts which are a hell of a lot more expensive.

To top it off, SL has the unique issue of PvP being the most reliable way to gear up, encouraging people to also look for PvP boosts rather than spending the time invested in it.

The token does end up drawing quite a bit of attention in that case for people looking for that quick gold though.

I think the token really kicked it off because of how few people actually had gold in wow to start with. The limiting factor of boosts wasn't so much people willing to sell boosts but the number of people who could reliably buy them.

While gold selling always happened it was far more taboo and risky then. I know selling CE mounts we usually had mostly the same buyers each tier almost all of them auction house mugils.

[Relapses]

Yes and no.

On one side you can pay to finish the game raid/story/gear wise.

On the other hand people who do it this way will always have to pay their way. They will never be able to clear mythic/rank high in PvP/clear high M+ Keys without paying someone to carry them.

Every person who can will never pay their way to the top as getting a full set of gear is laughable easy in wow and paying RL money for it is stupid. Unless you are in the WFR. Because well... these earlie items give you an edge. But their own fault. No one forces them to participate in it.

So. Winning no. Finishing... maybe. Also strawman: I never met one single person who bought themselves a full set of max lvl gear via boosts...

It's not P2W, it's Pay2BRFL.

Pay 2 Be Really Fucking Lazy

/thread

[Schizoide]

But then WoW has been legally P2W since October 2006..

No, tokens were added in 2015.

[Jester Joe]

I think the token really kicked it off because of how few people actually had gold in wow to start with. The limiting factor of boosts wasn't so much people willing to sell boosts but the number of people who could reliably buy them.

While gold selling always happened it was far more taboo and risky then. I know selling CE mounts we usually had mostly the same buyers each tier almost all of them auction house mugils.

It definitely gave the ability to buy gold to those who didn't want to risk the bans, because as you said it was far more risky to back then.

I just do also wonder how many people use that to buy stuff like CE, because I would think it would be more popular to be like, "Oh, I'll buy a token to get a +15 done this week". At least, currently the NA token is around 180k and I'm pretty sure you could get an M+ run with that (haven't looked into the prices lately though admittedly).

Granted, that's just more on a lower level of what you're saying anyway I believe, so less of disagreeing and more of idle curiosity.

- - - Updated - - -

No, tokens were added in 2015.

The TCG was was launched in 2006. Which I don't think it's too much of a stretch to call that "legal P2W", it just had more hoops to jump through than the token does.

[Davaca]

Tokens are just a safer way to do what people was doing waaaay before it's implementation. if you don't like how WoW give players the option to sell gear or services, that's ok, and you can say the game if p2w because of that. But it has nothing to do with the WoW token. It is an elegant solution to shady sites and constant scams, not the causation of player being able to exchange RL money for goods and services.

[Lochton]

No, tokens were added in 2015.

TCG loot cards were sold from October 2006.

- - - Updated - - -

The TCG was was launched in 2006. Which I don't think it's too much of a stretch to call that "legal P2W", it just had more hoops to jump through than the token does.

Or thanks to this thread, I've decided to call TCG loot for 'Exclusive P2W' while tokens are P2W for everyone..

Since tokens are apparently considered P2W.

[Jester Joe]

Or thanks to this thread, I've decided to call TCG loot for 'Exclusive P2W' while tokens are P2W for everyone..

Since tokens are apparently considered P2W.

Or those those who like living on the edge, it was like a gacha roll to see if they won the P2W by actually buying packs.

[Relapses]

TCG loot cards were sold from October 2006.

- - - Updated - - -



Or thanks to this thread, I've decided to call TCG loot for 'Exclusive P2W' while tokens are P2W for everyone..

Since tokens are apparently considered P2W.

Neither are P2W but no matter how many people you try to correct in this thread, most simply do not possess the critical thinking skills necessary to understand that it's half a dozen of one and six of another.

- - - Updated - - -

Or those those who like living on the edge, it was like a gacha roll to see if they won the P2W by actually buying packs.

TCG was patently worse than anything modern Blizzard does these days but players like to keep their nostalgia goggles so firmly attached that they often begin cutting off circulation to their brains.